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The morality of going to strip clubs

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jorma said:
If you argue #1, then how do you defend eating at McDonalds? Or any other product/service that depend on minimum wage labour? That sort of argument leaves you either hilariously cherry picking what sort of labour you are "forced" into, or unable to function in society.
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I think the guy holds consent to being ogled and groped to different standards as consent to take food orders......
 
The Mule said:
I recently went to a friend's buck's night where in traditional fashion the night ended with a trip to a strip club.

Before we went to the strip club a friend said he wouldn't be joining us. I understood he wasn't going for reasons of morality, and I enquired about the details why he thought it was immoral to go to a strip club.

It started a heated debate between him and another friend at the buck's night. I will try to accurately summarise the two positions with the first presented as a proposition, and the second as a response to that proposition.

#1. In a capitalist society there is no consent. You are born into the system and must do what you can to survive (i.e. earn money). Because of this you are unable to determine who, if anyone, is there by consent and not being exploited. Therefore it is better not take part in it to avoid the possibility of supporting exploitation. Only in a society with a universal/unconditional basic income (UBI) can you be sure that someone is there by consent, and not being exploited.

#2. Even within a capitalist system there is a choice for how you survive. Your proposition diminishes their agency and is judgemental of their choices i.e. slut-shaming, sin-of-sexuality. It is lite-chauvinism masquerading as feminism, because you are pitying them and dictating the conditions under which their choices are valid.

Which do you agree with? #1 or #2 or neither?

What else would you add to the debate?

I've already formed my opinion about this and I'll add it to this thread, but first I want to see what other people think before I throw my hat in the ring.
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#2 is where I stand generally but the consent/exploit thing is not that simple.

Anyway I don't go to strip clubs but for different reasons. I don't find it immoral.
 
The #1 guy said this after getting served at a bar where people work for tips?

But yeah. Strip Clubs are kind of gross and depressing in my opinion. You do you.
 
Not a fan. I think it's a waste of money. Morally i've nothing against it. Guys are having fun and girls are making money. It's not like these women are being enslaved and forced into stripping.
 
Hmm I'm extremely liberal in my views so I don't have a real problem with it, and I actually go with my friends every once in a while because it's fun.
Cool story, there was this one russian stripper who used to work in Thailand and one day at work she met her boyfriend to be (he was on a trip from my country), so she moved here with him and kept on working. He has no problem with it, and she's having fun and makes tons of cash.
 
I've been to a couple stripe clubs but I can't say I was impressed. My favorite kind of woman body type doesn't really show up at strip clubs not to mention I'm cheap as fuck and paying someone to get me hard but not do anything about it is pointless and a waste of money.
 
How is that not an argument against participating in virtually any and all kinds of commerce? Muddling the issue of consent seems relatively dumb.

Why does this rationalization apply only to strip clubs? In theory it should apply to virtually any tipped profession.
 
I have gone a few times with co workers. It's w/e, would probably be more fun if I actually drank, or gave a shit about my co workers.

The few clubs I went to with them basically just brothels though, so it's kinda weird and a little gross. Touching a stripper during a lapdance is kinda pretty good, but I don't want to really fuck a stripper in a small cramped booth with see through curtains, and a few of them, if you tell them no, they got kinda aggressive about it.

I always wondered how they avoided getting shut down by the police, because it's not exactly a secret what they are doing.
 
I only really go if i'm going with friends. Doesn't really feel like there's much of a point to go alone, though I have gone to other clubs for BDSM // etc. nights where nudity is allowed. Some of the performances are really great. To me, a strip club is a dumb way to spend your money on your own. There's gotta be something else you can do where you have chances of meeting someone new and talking to them. Not that you can't meet a stripper but the conversation is sort of forced?
 
I do not agree with #1 at all. You can argue that people need to make money to survive, and that much is obvious. There are so many other types of jobs that someone could hold though. I don't see an issue with it if that's what a person wants to do.

That being said, I am not a fan of strip clubs. I've been to two in my life and have no intentions of stepping foot into another again. Why would I drop money for someone unknown to grind on me and give me blue balls basically only to go home and rub one out?

It's such a fucking waste of money to me.
 
SliceSabre said:
I've been to a couple stripe clubs but I can't say I was impressed. My favorite kind of woman body type doesn't really show up at strip clubs not to mention I'm cheap as fuck and paying someone to get me hard but not do anything about it is pointless and a waste of money.
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Yep. You go in alone, you come out alone. (with a lot less money)
 
Sounds like the shittest stag do ever, if that was the conversation you ended up having.
 
This guy in the OP (and a few people in this thread) clearly does not know any actual commercial sex workers. I'm friends with a few of them, with one of my very good friends being a stripper in Manhattan. Every single one of them sincerely loves their job. All of them have college degrees and actually left semi-upscale "normal" office jobs to pursue sex work instead. My Manhattan stripper buddy is actually a lesbian, and she sometimes feels like she's the one exploiting her customers. For very little effort, men throw money at her, and if they get too grabby, two huge bouncers come and throw their asses out. She has zero investment in their welfare; they're just dollar signs to her.

There's a very important conversation that society needs to have about street prostitution and the porn industry being borderline sex trafficking, but actual brick-and-mortar businesses with business licenses -- burlesque, brothels, strip clubs? They're bound by labor laws, too.
 
eh strip clubs can be a lot of fun if everyones respectful to the performers and staff. Thats always been the case at the ones Ive been to in Van

As long as someone is being respected whether they be a labourer, janitor, or sex worker, I find its generally fine. Treat peeps with respect yo




Edit: I wanna add (at least at The Granville Strip) the women are AMAZINGLY talented like holy shit. They got abs galore. My friend does the acrobatic ribbon stuff where you hang from a large ribbon tied to the ceiling. These woman completely surpass her. Lots of respect for the amount of work they put in for that shit
 
Heard too many stories of strippers being women that have been tricked into coming from another country to work in the clubs for me to be fine with it.

Plenty of women are successful as fuck doing it but that doesn't make up for the fucked up things that happen in that industry as well.
 
I feel the same way about strip clubs as I do about prostitution: If I could be sure that my involvement with either did not / would not support human trafficking and explotation, I'd be happy to take part. I'd really like to, in fact.

But I can't be sure of that, so I don't take part.

Argument #1 is blatant bullshit, though. 90%+ of people would do the jobs they do if not for economic necessity.
 
Friend #1's argument is so dumb, haha. By that logic, he should go live in the woods in a self-sustaining fashion and not use any modern luxuries afforded to him.

Madness said:
Shoutouts to Brandi's in Vancouver. All you guys saying strip clubs are gross, you ever been to one recently or a high end one? You have groups of girls there having a good time. Businessmen, sometimes you just want to relax after work with some friends, have some drinks, watch 10/10 girls dance etc. Haven't gone in a while as a couple friends got married so they don't feel as comfortable, but you just get a few friends, hand a couple tens or twenties, have some beers and chat and relax. Sometimes you have a drink with the girls later, you find out they're nurses at a local hospital who are just supplementing income, visiting from the UK and Australia etc.
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Brandi's is awesome. Tons of girls and guys there, it's clean, well-run, pretty professional. Girls are cool, and if you're polite and respectful, it's a fun place to be.

Plus the shows are really cool. Then again, it's all in the presentation. How do you really know that the women enjoy it as well? Then again, the couple of times of gone, they're raking in the cash as desperate men lineup in front of the ATM machines and the girls smile 10000 megawatt smiles.

You gotta respect the hustle.

Some places are holes though. I haven't gone a ton, but generally you can tell if a place will be good or if it's a crack den.

Though if you show up at Brandi's after 10:30, you have to bribe the doorman to get in. Fuck that shit.
 
Seeing naked people is too compelling.

However, 5 mins in, you're looking at the patrons inside, that's the most interesting part.
 
I have a much simpler argument about not going to strip clubs: i just find them gross.

edit: Read Madness post. Maybe gross is the wrong word. The place we went to was nice, I was told it was a good place and the girls were beautiful. It's just not my thing.

I went once for a bachelor party and would go again if in the same position but i will never think "hey we should go to a strip club". Luckily other bachelor parties I've had, have not involved strip clubs.
 
I have gone to a couple of burlesque shows with my girlfriend though. Slightly different thing of course, a bit more artsy. Not gross at all, mostly just funny. There was a picture of Neil Gaiman of all people when he visited that place above our table.

Nudity can be more than just a couple of gross old men drooling at a table. Sometimes it's art, sometimes it's just fun. It's just a natural part of life. Hell, Neil Gaiman's wife is naked in public all the time, and that's always about humanity more than sex.

Regular old strip clubs probably aren't for me either, but I won't judge anyone who goes to them.
 
HarryKS said:
Seeing naked people is too compelling.

However, 5 mins in, you're looking at the patrons inside, that's the most interesting part.
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Yes! Honestly, once you're in, people watching becomes even more fascinating than the 10/10 girls on stage.

I've been to two different clubs in my life, and they have vastly different clientele and behaviors and attitudes vary so wildly. There's the club with the suit and tie crowd, yuppies, fratbros, couples, solo women, and then there's the club with the gangsta wannabes, sad old men, outright creeps instead of creeps that hide their freakiness.
 
NotTheGuyYouKill said:
Yes! Honestly, once you're in, people watching becomes even more fascinating than the 10/10 girls on stage.

I've been to two different clubs in my life, and they have vastly different clientele and behaviors and attitudes vary so wildly. There's the club with the suit and tie crowd, yuppies, fratbros, couples, solo women, and then there's the club with the gangsta wannabes, sad old men, outright creeps instead of creeps that hide their freakiness.
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Going to a strip club for the first time was actually a shock for me. It was very different from what I had come to expect from watching movies and tv shows.

There were young couples, old couples, groups of women, young university students, shady dudes at the back.

Not a single gruff biker type. Not one. It was fun.
 
jorma said:
Obviously. Since he is cherry picking what sort of forced labour he is willing to endorse...
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Do you honestly not see why somebody would feel more guilty of having a woman unhappily grind on his crotch than a person unhappily taking or cooking up his food order?
 
I got way too drunk at a strip club and started calling myself the white drake and telling the girls they didn't have to live like this so they started telling me how baller their job is and how much they make in one night. So I guess the second is more valid in my anecdotal experience.
 
HarryKS said:
Going to a strip club for the first time was actually a shock for me. It was very different from what I had come to expect from watching movies and tv shows.

There were young couples, old couples, groups of women, young university students, shady dudes at the back.

Not a single gruff biker type. Not one. It was fun.
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The gruff biker dudes apparently hang out at the Byrd in Surrey, which is a front for Hell's Angels cocaine dealers and human trafficking.

So you know, there are good clubs and there are not-good clubs.
 
At some point you, you have to accept that you're benefiting off of the exploited no matter where you are or what you do, unless you go and seclude yourself from civilization. Strip clubs aren't really high on the list of immoral business's though, considering the laws they're bound by. Consuming porn is probably a lot worse because it's less regulated.
 
I've only gone to one once, it was a release party for an album where they had live music and such. They just arn't my scene. I'm not the most out going person so staring at someone stripping doesn't appeal to me.
 
I can see both sides of the argument. Like a lot of things in life, the reality is more nuanced than what you can put in simple black and white terms.

Having known a couple of strippers (one former) and having been to my share of strip clubs as a patron (keeping in mind I'm in my 40's and have some city miles on me) I can say this: a good share of the dancers are are intelligent, independent and very much aware of what they're doing and why. If I were ever at a club where I got the sense that the employees were poorly treated, or were foreign transplants being used as essentially slave labor, I would never, ever go back to that establishment.

As far as exploitation is concerned, I'm not sure I agree that the patrons are the ones doing the exploiting as compared to the system at large or the individual employer. The only thing a patron is doing is helping someone pay their bills.
 
IMO strip clubs are going to quickly die. VR porn will absolutely demolish it once it catches on. I think strip clubs are kinda sleazy. I went to a straight strip once and I lowkey felt uncomfortable the entire time.
 
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