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The nostalgia argument

O

oni-link

Member
Whenever someone makes a thread about an older game, and the fact they're not enjoying it or finding it to be worse than they remember, there is always at least one poster who uses this argument

"it's just nostalgia"

I'm someone who plays a lot of older games, and someone who plays a lot of older games I never had the chance to play when they were first released

I first played ALTTP, FF6, FF7, SoTN, Jet Set Radio, Mega Man 2 & Deus Ex for the first time in the last 3 years, and I felt like all these games held up really well

I think if you play a lot of older games, you don't really mind older mechanics or conventions and just enjoy the game, those who use the "nostalgia" argument I feel like have become too comfortable with newer games and so anything that doesn't follow modern gaming rules seems unbearable

My point being, I don't think "nostalgia" is ever a good argument, because great games don't stop being great games just because they are now 10, 15 or 20 years old

What do you think, GAF? Do games have a sell by date? Can classics become average over time? Can we discredit the opinions of those who only play newer games when it comes to judging games from a decade or more ago?
 
It's when someone starts saying that an older game is better than a newer one because the newer one "isn't as magical" or something that the nostalgia argument is most valid.
 
Yes some "classics" have become average over time. Both control wise and graphically, like Tomb Raider for instance.
Some are timeless, like Tetris or SMB3.
 
Can classics become average over time? Can we discredit the opinions of those who only play newer games when it comes to judging games from a decade or more ago?
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If you discredit the opinions of people who play newer games you're kind of an asshole, actually.


But yes, games you once thought were awesome, can become less awesome than you remembered. Like, I used to love Frogger: He's Back! for the PS1. To this day, after replaying and beating it I think it's still a good game but the excitement I had for replaying it at the beginning kind of died.

But at the same time there are certain titles that can withstand the test of time. Like Ape Escape. God, Ape Escape is such a good game.
 
oni-link said:
I think if you play a lot of older games, you don't really mind older mechanics or conventions and just enjoy the game, those who use the "nostalgia" argument I feel like have become too comfortable with newer games and so anything that doesn't follow modern gaming rules seems unbearable
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Well, that's the crux of the issue, isn't it? If someone has been accustomed to modern game design—often brought about from iteration or modifications of older mechanics—because those are the games they have grown up with or have mainly played, going back to older games that differ from those mechanics significantly can be unappealing. In that sense, games do age, and thus "age poorly" for people who can't be comfortable with how older games played.
 
I think it's mostly used when people come in saying something like "everything was better back then" while ignoring all the crap we also had.
Besides that, some people apparently just can't understand you can still like a game a lot while simultaneously admitting its mechanics/graphics/controls/etc didn't age very well. So to them it has to be nostalgia goggles or a lie.
 
Games do not have a "sell by" date, but you are more open to games as a kid. A game you managed to enjoy as a kid may be under more scrutiny as an adult.
 
Most games that were praised simply for being cutting edge at the time tend to age horribly. There are obvious exceptions but I feel those can actually fall into the "just nostalgia" category.

There are games that are timeless though and hold up amazingly regardless of the time period they are from.
 
I agree with you OP.

Because new games are automatically better, get it?

And yet, some people (like me, i'm weird like that) can like older games, even when the first time they played them was recently. I played System Shock 2 AFTER i played Bioshock and yet i loved SS more, even though i had no "nostalgic memories" of it, on the contrary, i had nostalgic memories of Bioshock, recent as they may be .

And this is when the nostalgia argument is thrown out of the window.
 
Nostalgia is often seen as something inherently bad. I don't really understand why.

Tastes change. Quality is objective. What seemed like the best game ten years ago might not seem that way now.
 
Silky said:
If you discredit the opinions of people who play newer games you're kind of an asshole, actually.
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Discredit was probably too harsh a term, but if someone who mainly got into games with CoD4 and mostly plays post 2007 AAA games says they think Doom or Mario 64 are bad games, it's easier to dismiss that opinion

But it makes sense they wouldn't like those games or would find them outdated, or assume the only reason anyone likes them is nostalgia, my point is if they did dismiss them as "just nostalgia" they'd be wrong, as both are still great games
 
The way "nostalgia" is thrown around, it often ends up meaning: "that old game you like sucks because I hated it and the fact that it's old makes a great excuse to rag on it, since game players think new technology = better".

People can be blinded by nostalgia, especially with games they attached to during formative childhood years. But games don't have a sell by date. The great ones, like the great anythings, transcend their original era.
 
I am the exact opposite of you, the more I play newer games the less I can tolerate going back to older games. I come to realize that there is a lot of bullshit in games we just accept because we had to.

For example I loved Resident Evil games, I completed 1, 2 and 3 (still no villain has give me the same feeling of dread that Nemesis gave me back then) yet I can't for the love of me go back to them, I've been spoiled by the way 3rd person games control nowadays, the tank controls feel just bad to me now, like I'm not allowed to move as I should, and the graphics, man PS1 graphics, I cannot help but being bothered buy them, the (pre-rendered) background look fine, but those character model, I have no idea how this game ever scared me.

So, yes, I am one of those that think people usually remember things as better than they were, and I am always suspicious of claiming some [old game] was the best thing ever. now if you constantly go back and play them and you enjoy them, then more power to you, you're not blinded by nostalgia, but I get the feeling most people are not doing that
 
Things like control schemes definitely have a best before date. I recently booted up GTAIII on the PS2 and completely forgot the right stick was to look around in first person instead of moving the 3rd person camera. For me, it wasn't really an issue because I know of all the awesome things you can do in that game, but someone coming in new might write it off completely.
 
As someone that discovered the magic of Nintendo's games relatively late in life, I always hate the "You only like this because of Nostalgia" argument.

I have no memories of Zelda growing up, yet the games still made such an impact on me, I have a Link avatar.
 
FluxWaveZ said:
Well, that's the crux of the issue, isn't it? If someone has been accustomed to modern game design—often brought about from iteration or modifications of older mechanics—because those are the games they have grown up with or have mainly played, going back to older games that differ from those mechanics significantly can be unappealing. In that sense, games do age, and thus "age poorly" for people who can't be comfortable with how older games played.
Click to expand...

Films age too, in terms of visuals (black and white) pacing, directing style, and special effects, but no one considers older films to be worse than newer ones because of that
 
SteveTR said:
Nostalgia is often seen as something inherently bad. I don't really understand why.
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Its not bad. Feeling nostalgic about something means it was good to begin with and if a newer game makes you remember the old one in a nostalgic fashion, then maybe that new game isn't good enough to make you forget the older game.

Its just that some people use this argument to neglect all your arguments about you liking an older game. Because for them, newer games are automatically better just because they are newer.
 
I've started playing older games (pre-PS1 era, because PS1 was the console of my childhood) when I was 17. I cannot have nostalgia for those games, I played them within last three years, and if I found them good, I found them good in this decade.
 
hushlorentz said:
Things like control schemes definitely have a best before date. I recently booted up GTAIII on the PS2 and completely forgot the right stick was to look around in first person instead of moving the 3rd person camera. For me, it wasn't really an issue because I know of all the awesome things you can do in that game, but someone coming in new might write it off completely.
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That's something that was just as bad when the game was released though. :P
 
KooopaKid said:
Yes some "classics" have become average over time. Both control wise and graphically, like Tomb Raider for instance.
Some are timeless, like Tetris or SMB3.
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I liked the original Tomb Raider. I had fun with it. Loved the atmosphere and lack of hand holding. And the platforming was rewarding.

The new Tomb Raider, i didn't like it. I hate cinematic games that hold your hand and show you fancy set pieces and events. There was A LOT of hand holding in this one.

So, i like the original TR more than the new one, simply because i don't like the new one.

NOSTALGIA, AM I RITE?
 
Auctopus said:
Slowly becoming my least favourite journalist.
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Why, what's wrong with saying that Resident Evil observes the "cruel, unpolished design" of classic games, and that the game "demands nostalgia if you're to truly enjoy it"?

I'm very bitter about it, as you can tell.
 
I always replay old games I enjoyed to make sure if they still hold up, so I can't be accused of rose tinted specs.
 
oni-link said:
Films age too, in terms of visuals (black and white) pacing, directing style, and special effects, but no one considers older films to be worse than newer ones because of that
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Because you don't play films. The same argument can be made for novels or music; you can't compare those to video games.
 
I think it's valid for the person saying it. I love Outlaws (LucasArts FPS featuring cowboys). I love the story. I love the graphics. And I love the maps. I appreciate them due to nostalgia. Someone else might play that game and counter-argue everything I said because they've played newer and better games. It's fine. But the reason I love it so much is because I grew up playing it and remember Outlaws in an era of other shooters around that time.
 
I've definitely gone back to a game and it wasn't as good as I remembered. See: Mario 64. Still a good game, but it's aged quite heavily. I have fond memories because it was mind blowing for its time and because I was younger.

So yes, the nostalgia argument does work, however I feel like it's often misused and people tend to exclude themselves from it.

I try to go back and play things with a fresh mind, but I can never fully deny that nostalgia still colors my perception of an older game.
 
Having an axe to grind at newer games reflects bad taste, but yeah, accusing someone of liking something solely due to nostalgia when they've already offered any specific praise at all is basically accusing them of being too dumb to work out why they like something.

I don't have much trouble adjusting to control schemes and camera systems, old and new, and I like certain design trends that were more prominent in the past (like in 2D action games, for instance). So it only makes sense that I'd prefer Search and Rescue to Hotline Miami, even with no nostalgia involved.

People like things for silly reasons all the time, but I still don't find myself assuming nostalgia is involved in most cases.
 
Nostalgia is occasionally important and occasionally some games really just are that good. Your late to the party list are all things I would say hold up perfectly well, but some things like Zelda 1 really do not, but lots of people rush to say it's still good. It was an amazing, groundbreaking game, but even after LTTP it feels archaic and not in a good or nostalgia-heavy way, it's just a pain in the ass and either requires a guide or a lot of complete bumbling around, and I do not find exploring in that game fun, unlike...well unlike almost every Zelda.

There's also a lot of games that just have terrible controls. I tried Hitman Blood Money after everyone was saying it's so much better than absolution. Maybe it is, but dear lord the controls are terrible. Not sure what to call that, nostalgia or no, some games had terrible controls even for when they released (tomb raider, IMO).
 
People usually dish out the "nostalgia" or "aged poorly" arguments when they're unable to crack the surface of older games due them generally being harder, less hand holding and in some cases have more advanced mechanics. Old cRPG's are a prime example of this. They don't play very intuitively by modern standards, but once you realize that old RPG's are designed around the idea that character skill is supposed to override player skill they start making sense.
 
A good game is a good game regardless of how much time passes.Graphics may age,animations may age but the fundamentals of a deep and engaging gameplay system and level design never age.

The "blinded by nostalgia" argument is just silly and incredibly annoying.Unfortunately it's often used as the only argument in a conversation by someone who doesn't even bother to try and explain why something has suddenly stopped being "good".
 
sublimit said:
The "blinded by nostalgia" argument is just silly and incredibly annoying.Unfortunately it's often used as the only argument in a conversation by someone who doesn't even bother to try and explain why something has suddenly stopped being "good".
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The "fancy graphics goggles" can be more blinding than the nostalgic ones.
 
SteveTR said:
Nostalgia is often seen as something inherently bad. I don't really understand why.

Tastes change. Quality is objective. What seemed like the best game ten years ago might not seem that way now.
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I guess it mainly comes down to having a skewed perspective of what the games where actually like. The idea that the older games never had the flaws of the new games (See Final Fantasy).

At the same time I never brush off the argument case as nostalgia because then you fall into trap of dismissing argument cases. Some games do truly stand the test of time but they never had that level of critical thinking put towards them that we do nowadays. If we applied that level of thought to the older games, then I think we'd understand how good those games really where.

The problem is though is when you get stuck in wanting the old games and not progression. People will praise the older games as being flawless and expect the new ones to be the same. Which results in a lot of complaints towards the newer games not being as good.

Personally I appreciate a game more when I deconstruct my older "favourite games of all time". As a result I can enjoy the new and old. Nostalgia is a problem though.

FluxWaveZ said:
No.
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What makes games so interesting as a form of media is that there's an additional element to why the older games be better than the new. Fighting games are perfect example of this. Fighting games are based on mechanics and gameplay rather than graphics, sounds and the other typical areas. As a result games like Third Strike and Melee (14 years on) are still being played to this day because they are better than the newer games. It's not based on nostalgia but what the game brings to the table mechanically. It's why people still play Super Turbo 25 years on because to some, the mechanics out do all of the new. It depends on the genre and the player.
 
oni-link said:
Films age too, in terms of visuals (black and white) pacing, directing style, and special effects, but no one considers older films to be worse than newer ones because of that
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I dunno, try showing A Trip to the Moon to someone who isn't a film buff and without telling them it was made in 1902
 
I do believe a lot of it is nostalgia. There is a reason I don't play any of these new indie side scroller games, and that's because I don't enjoy that type of gameplay anymore. I feel it's too limiting and not as immersive. But, I know I enjoyed them when I was younger, and that is all there was.

I guess my point is this: yes, good games can become bad.
 
Older games lack the design sensibilities that became common only after their release, and it can be difficult for a player who has become used to modern games to shift into the necessary mindset to play and enjoy a classic.
 
Or maybe sometimes it really is just nostalgia.

That isn't saying no one is allowed to like it for what it is, but things do get dated and newer games have improved on the mechanics of older games.

If you'd like to have a serious discussion about anything, even videogames, it's probably best not to start discrediting dissenting opinions offhand.
 
flatearthpandas said:
Or maybe sometimes it really is just nostalgia.

That isn't saying no one is allowed to like it for what it is, but things do get dated and newer games have improved on the mechanics of older games.

If you'd like to have a serious discussion about anything, even videogames, it's probably best not to start discrediting dissenting opinions offhand.
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When I recognize what I like about an older game, especially one I hadn't played until recently, and you still tell me that I only like it due to nostalgia, you're the one throwing out the possibility of serious conversation.
 
KooopaKid said:
Yes some "classics" have become average over time. Both control wise and graphically, like Tomb Raider for instance.
Some are timeless, like Tetris or SMB3.
Click to expand...

This is my point, and let me quote something someone said in another recent Tomb Raider thread:

Y2Kev said:
Here we go again with this.

You appreciated and adapted to those controls because they are the most precise controls for 3d platforming ever created. Everything in Tomb Raider is aligned to a grid-- every crevice, every jump, every block, every shimmy, everything. The 3d controls in Tomb Raider allow you to move Lara precisely along a grid. The core mechanics of the game actually begin to transform themselves to a certain language of gaming. Jumps become one square block long. Repositioning is two sidesteps to the left. Do a backwards roll to reorient yourself following a jump.

You can play the games blindfolded. Odds are that as a child you were more patient and your brain was more flexible, and as such you were able to learn why and understand what for the controls meant.

I'm really saddened by people who don't get it-- or should I say, can't understand how others could get it or how others could have gotten it. The type of game classic Tomb Raider was has absolutely been lost to time.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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While it has dated and no longer lacks a visual punch, it's not a bad game, and its not something that is only good or enjoyable to someone wearing nostalgia goggles, though it's understandable that a lot of people would find it difficult to play in 2015
 
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