hemtae
Member
Didn't have enough time or money to do that stuff iirc.
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The NPCs need more to do in Elder Scolls and Fallout games
- Thread starter IcyRhythms
- Start date
Didn't have enough time or money to do that stuff iirc.
Atomicfireman
Member
I never thought about this before, but this would actually be really cool. It would feel so much more natural then the arrows in Skyrim telling you exactly where to find people when you need them for a quest.
Emulated Hype
Member
Nice, thanks for putting this on my radar. Part of my problem with the more ambitious open world games like (Skyrim, GTA5 and Just Cause 2) is that while their sheer size is impressive, there usually isn't much to do other than explore the map. The post-game in GTA5 and Just Cause being borderline model train set simulators once you've finished sandboxing. Which is odd, as GTA5 is in the perfect position to add rudimentary blue-collar sim elements to the game in the vein of Euro Truck Simulator and it's ilk.
It'll be refreshing to see some studios tackle a much more intimate and focused worldspace, it's something I wish Bethesda would try with maybe Menevia, Orsinium or Wayrest. Solitude convinced me that I want to see them take a second crack at the Iliac Bay region.
I think this is where mods spoil some people. Something like Interesting NPCs took hundreds of man hours to pull together and that kind of of work is generally done by hobbyists in their free time and spans over a few years of development, then there's other things to consider like the staggering number of voice actors(80+), immediate community feedback and a massive pool of testers. Luxuries which just aren't present when you're on a budget and a tight schedule.
Bethesda tackled it in the past with Daggerfall, basic stuff like asking where an NPC is and getting a "They're at shop/guild/residence." answer, then having to ask where the building is on the map. Some people would know both, some would know neither, ect. I don't think it's something which we'll likely see anytime soon given voice acting costs. Dialogue splicing would be a likely solution, but it'd probably sound pretty awkward.
And that's exactly the mistake Bethesda learned from for subsequent titles. They keep a very tight lid on pre-release info for their games. There's a crapton of missing/cut content from Skyrim, but the vast majority of it they never even talked about.
Things like this can be expensive in programing - as in, expensive in overall processing power (graphics engines, visual processors). In essence it comes down to balance in this processing power, and how that power gets allocated to other things.
In short, algorithms created for realism can be very expensive - most of the time these algorithms need animations - which have limitations, and so on....it's possible, but not practical
...this can be argued up or down of course.
Kageshinzo
Member
I would rather have a simpler game graphics-wise but with AI and routine that you guys mentioned than a very graphically intensive game, but with basic or current AI/routine. I think it's a good compromise. Experience triumphs over graphics and presentation for me anyway.
Imagine gunplay and fighting with just two or three NPCs but with very cunning AI that will actually cause you to sweat. Even more thrilling if you or they die in a couple of shots, in a very sophisticated body damage system, in an area that is all interactive so you and they can create tactics on the fly.
Imagine gunplay and fighting with just two or three NPCs but with very cunning AI that will actually cause you to sweat. Even more thrilling if you or they die in a couple of shots, in a very sophisticated body damage system, in an area that is all interactive so you and they can create tactics on the fly.
Sakura
Member
Yea the NPCs in Skyrim just feel like robots.
It's not even just routines and schedules, most of them have no story, nothing to say, or the exact same things to say as other people. They don't have relationships with other people in the town etc.
I get it can be a time consuming task, but when you walk into a town of only like 50 NPCs, and they all just kind of stand around and do and say the same things, and don't react to the world around them, it is pretty boring. In a game like The Elder Scrolls, where 'role playing' is kind of the whole point, it's rather disappointing.
Take a game like Majora's Mask. It's much less an open world RPG than The Elder Scrolls, yet the world feels so much more realised, the NPCs more individualised and unique, it seems like an actual town populated by actual people. I'd rather that than scores of what looks like generic NPCs saying the same generic things.
It's not even just routines and schedules, most of them have no story, nothing to say, or the exact same things to say as other people. They don't have relationships with other people in the town etc.
I get it can be a time consuming task, but when you walk into a town of only like 50 NPCs, and they all just kind of stand around and do and say the same things, and don't react to the world around them, it is pretty boring. In a game like The Elder Scrolls, where 'role playing' is kind of the whole point, it's rather disappointing.
Take a game like Majora's Mask. It's much less an open world RPG than The Elder Scrolls, yet the world feels so much more realised, the NPCs more individualised and unique, it seems like an actual town populated by actual people. I'd rather that than scores of what looks like generic NPCs saying the same generic things.
Yeah seriously. I never really doubted any of the NPCs in Morrowind just standing around, their place in the world was always decently contextual (their rooms / living space told you a lot about who they were). I more have a problem with everyone in Skyrim and Oblivion having the same face and voice, which is used to express almost nothing interesting at all.
That immersion though. :/
I imagine this is much easier when characters are sprites and dialogue is just text. I haven't played Ultima VII but could someone describe what that was like? I imagine it was easier for that game for similar reasons.
As for splicing Dialogue, ArmA 3 does this. It does sound awkward and robotic, but it serves an actual gameplay purpose. Your squadmates will describe exact enemy positions which really does change the way you perceive battles strategically.
ArmA is also an interesting case to look at in terms of open-world games and simulation. The whole purpose of the game is to just simulate combined-arms combat from the human scale, including towns and everything. The result is that the world is more realistically scaled (not 100% real life scale but really close) and you can enter every building in ArmA 3, but it's all lifeless, with usually few or no NPCs. I keep imagining how cool an actual RPG or adventure game would be using the world map of one of these games. Some ArmA 2 missions even dabble in the adventure side of it.
BrassDragon
Member
This thread seems relevant to the discussion; game developers act like they have goldfish memory and solve problems and reinvent wheels that older titles already tackled, particularly when it comes to CRPGs
For instance, Oblivion seems to be the granddaddy of the Elder Scrolls franchise for both Bethseda and its audience, leaving many innovative features of Daggerfall and Morrowind by the wayside.
Some of that is because of 'streamlining' for mass appeal and the trade-off between graphical fidelity and (console) limitations but I'm convinced that institutional amnesia in game development is another factor. There is not enough curating and appreciation of older titles.
For instance, Oblivion seems to be the granddaddy of the Elder Scrolls franchise for both Bethseda and its audience, leaving many innovative features of Daggerfall and Morrowind by the wayside.
Some of that is because of 'streamlining' for mass appeal and the trade-off between graphical fidelity and (console) limitations but I'm convinced that institutional amnesia in game development is another factor. There is not enough curating and appreciation of older titles.
Playing Majora's Mask through again got me thinking. How, in 15 years, have we not had ANY game that tries to do what MM did but better? Sure the 'living, breathing' world is kinda an illusion in MM cause it's the same people do the same thing for a set period, but man it works so much better than all the 'dynamic' NPC's devs have been gushing about having in games like Skyrim etc.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Wanting realism and immersion dictates that I want someone to bat an eyelid at me standing still for 10 hours.
They might not have really been "better" but two post-MM games that had some good NPC routines were Shenmue II and Radiata Stories.
Ah yes, Radiant AI....I remember being so hyped for this.
radiant ai was fucking magical in action though
dudes just robbing and murdering each other because their hunger meter was at 0
chaos in cities and especially in the wilderness due to stuff like that.. hilarious
i don't know if skyrim has any traces of it left, but new vegas had a hilarious glitch where E-DE (the eyebot companion) still had radiant AI enabled by accident, meaning that it'd randomly go on insane rampages murdering and stealing things for no real apparent reason when the rest of the game world folks were relatively sane
i also seem to recall radiant AI taking into account clothing/weapons/wealth, meaning that dudes would murder each other for any of those if they didn't have any, leading to extremely bizarre fights where characters with no equipment would try to mug characters with the most expensive equipment, meaning that you'd somewhat uncommonly run into naked dudes who would try to fistfight city guards
They actually do mostly all eat, sleep, work and whatnot. I think its pretty damn impressive overall.
Could it be better? Sure. But these are HUGE games and giving them all unique, meaningful tasks to do every day that have nothing to do with player interaction must be an absolutely enormous task.
Could it be better? Sure. But these are HUGE games and giving them all unique, meaningful tasks to do every day that have nothing to do with player interaction must be an absolutely enormous task.
ahh, good times... good times.
BouncyFrag
Member
They could at least get some more voice actors that say different things. I lost track of the numerous nordbros scattered all over the map who says 'You've been a good friend to me. That means something".
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Yeah, this, basically. I'd rather have Bethesda step up their game in terms of quest variety and length for their future games and not waste their time with this.
BouncyFrag
Member
Anyone else have a master trainer in Oblivion get killed out in the wild?
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
I mean, yes they do, but radiant AI did some really impressive stuff in comparison to earlier and even later titles.
NPC's in Oblivion and Skyrim could do some surprising things.
I think Fallout NPC's were intentionally less involved.
NPC's in Oblivion and Skyrim could do some surprising things.
I think Fallout NPC's were intentionally less involved.
Azure Phoenix
Member
Having just booted the game up again recently, I feel it is part of a general problem with the NPC AI being far too wooden and scripted to feel like a natural part of the world. It is the one area where the ES series really needs to improve.
For example if I want to play a "bad" character, what are your choices for interacting with NPCs? Stealing and randomly killing. However the consequences for both of them are literally the same, bounty and every single NPC will try and kill you wherever you go. You can nuke an entire town with magic and yet the AI will never react any differently than "he has a bounty, attack".
Why do NPCs not treat you with fear and suspicion and react accordingly? Why can I not be recognised as being powerful enough not to be crossed by unarmed vegetable traders? Why, if I'm a vampire wearing a hood and happen to reach starved form in a town does every NPC in every building and corner of the town immediately know where I am and suicide charge me after 1 person saw me halfway across the map? NPCs already comment on things they shouldn't possibly know about, yet they don't even react differently when a heavy blizzard blows through town or it pours with rain.
For example if I want to play a "bad" character, what are your choices for interacting with NPCs? Stealing and randomly killing. However the consequences for both of them are literally the same, bounty and every single NPC will try and kill you wherever you go. You can nuke an entire town with magic and yet the AI will never react any differently than "he has a bounty, attack".
Why do NPCs not treat you with fear and suspicion and react accordingly? Why can I not be recognised as being powerful enough not to be crossed by unarmed vegetable traders? Why, if I'm a vampire wearing a hood and happen to reach starved form in a town does every NPC in every building and corner of the town immediately know where I am and suicide charge me after 1 person saw me halfway across the map? NPCs already comment on things they shouldn't possibly know about, yet they don't even react differently when a heavy blizzard blows through town or it pours with rain.
This is only half true. Even going to Ultima level, which ran on pre-pentium PCs, would be a step up.
Brian Griffin
Member
Same here. Despite how brutally you were punished for dying in EQ1 I have nothing but fond memories about it and it has to be because I was a kid and had all the time in the world the summer I started playing. I played a druid and at level 14 I wanted to get the Spirit of Wolf spell but it was only sold in another town, on another island, and surrounded by higher level zones.
I took the long route which took me through Greater Faydark -> Butcherblock Mtns -> Ocean of Tears -> Freeport -> Northern Ro -> Oasis of Marr -> Southern Ro -> Innothule Swamp -> Feerrott -> Rathe Mountains -> Lake Rathetear -> South Karana -> North Karana -> East Karana -> Gorge of King Xorbb -> Runnyeye -> Misty Thicket -> and finally arriving in Rivervale.
This journey took a few hours to complete with lots of danger along the way but it did absolutely NOTHING to advance my character until I got to the end and bought the spell. Despite this it's one of my favorite gaming memories of my life because it's the closest I've even been to actually feeling like I was traveling through a real world on a real quest.