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[Moondoggy]

Judaism is a religion. Jewishness is more than just religion.

And Jesus, as well as mlk, Obama, rosa parks and all the others mentioned here were all real life figures.

Helen of Troy was not. One story has her hatching from an egg and being a demigoddess of sorts. Similarly to Jesus the mythical elements of the story are subject to plenty of artistic license. This has been taken advantage of plenty of times in media. Narnia comes to mind, where he's a lion.

Thats much closer to me an idea of what Nolan is doing than anything specifying race. And Helen of Troy like many Greek figures has been no less a subject of adaptation. This isnt even a new thing for the Greek pantheon.

These are all different modernized adaptions/ depictions of hades:

I never saw any outrage for any of these. And the same goes for most of the Greek pantheon.

And? These are all anime, manga, cartoon version of a Greek character taken out of context to tell unique stories, we're talking about a Live action retelling of the Odyssey, maybe just stop with these comparisons, they aren't the gotcha moments you think they are.

 

[Toons]

This is a nonsensical Disney cartoon. Which, if the Odyssey is supposed to be a nonsensical action movie, advertise it as such. Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter did a great job of that.

Both movies were advertised as adaptations of myth.

Chris Nolan is very deliberately not focusing on accuracy and we knew that before the controversial casting was even announced based on the costume designs and such.

But it being a "silly movie" has not absolved other movies in the past and wouldn't absolve any Disney animated movie today either. We all know that. And that to me is also a double standard, or at least a lost one. Because that Hercules movie is pretty good.

You should get into politics. You make it sound like she just decided to drop the role when she found out the race of the character, yet.......in reality she dropped and offered an apology only because of the backlash. She would still be in the role if there wasn't any backlash.

Actress Odessa A'zion has pulled out of A24's latest film, Deep Cuts, after online backlash over her casting.

Fans of the novel were unhappy Marty Supreme star A'zion was due to play supporting character Zoe Gutierrez, described in the book as having Mexican and Jewish heritage.

Odessa A'zion quits Deep Cuts after casting backlash

Odessa A'zion says she didn't realise her character in Deep Cuts was meant to be half-Mexican.

www.bbc.co.uk

That doesn't argue with what i said. She in her own words claimed she wasn't aware of the original characters ethnicity and once she found out didnt want to participate in a race swapped role. She was not forced out. And if Hollywood is so bent on promoting leftist anti white messages they wouldn't have hired her in the first place.

It was HER politics that led her to leave the role.

Again, dropped out only because of the online backlash from the online mob.

Actor Ed Skrein quits Hellboy after whitewashing criticism

Ed Skrein says he did not know the character was of Asian heritage when he took the role in Hellboy.

www.bbc.co.uk

Did you read the caption? He ALSO didn't know about the original chatactwr and didn't want to play a race swapped role. Once again, it was his personal stance that led to his own decision go leave it.

You sure about that?




Bame was born to an English mercenary father and a mother from a fictional south American country if I'm not mistaken. Not a very good example.



Ah, so now we're admitting (just) that there is an overcorrection. At least you're confirming it's happening. That's a start.

I never denied that. I've been very clear about what I'm arguing here.

I dont doubt there's been an overcorrection. But I also think there's been an OVERREACTION. And those both contribute to the same problem.

And I certainly reject the notion is some Hollywood leftist cabal running this.

As for bane, his origin is more based in realism than Helen of troys. Both are either valid targets of the discourse or neither are.

I want consistency rather than - as you put it - an overcorrection. Especially with historical figures. We can have a race swapped Queen Charlotte of England, but we both know that it wouldn't work the other way today.

If it was wrong in the past then it's wrong now.

So you're just asking for reverse quotas then? Or are you asking for things to go back the way they were before? Or, in the spirt of what nolan is doing, disregarding all the external BS and just hiring actors he likes? Honestly that might be the way to go moving forward.

Correct. I don't believe Nolan has been taken over by the leftist Hollywood elite. I don't think he was forced to make these decisions.



Sure. How about Jodie Turner-Smith playing the historically white Anne Boleyn. Critics praised the brave casting choice and performance.

Here is the major difference. There was criticism online, but it was hand waved away as racism. There was no apology from Miss Turner Smith and she didn't drop the role.

Let's now compre to the examples above, who were only fictional characters as well.

That's the double standard.



Historical accuracy is important, but that's a different topic.

Should she have been forced to drop the role? If she wanted to and choice to, would that be a bad thing? She didn't cast herself. She got praised for her PERFORMANCE, she had nothing to do with the casting.

As I've already mentioned, there's no shortage of race swapped roles that have received immense praise. Even the deep I mentioned before has received praise. None of that praise is due to his race or the race of the character he's playing.

 

[Toons]

And? These are all anime, manga, cartoon version of a Greek character taken out of context to tell unique stories, we're talking about a Live action retelling of the Odyssey, maybe just stop with these comparisons, they aren't the gotcha moments you think they are.

Theres many many live action ones i can show as well but you're missing the point.

The point is being loosely and wildly adapted in manners very different from the orifnal is kinda the entire Greek pantheons main thing in media and has been for decades. Eveey single figure of Greek myth has had this done to them and I wasn't hearing anything about "respect for Greek culture" then.

This complaint for a movie from this director seems inorganic as a result.

Amd as my initial post stated, which everyone has glossed over, I believe he has an artistic reason for doing this, not a political driven one. That should alter the response.

 

[JackHanma]

This cunt

Funny how morals and 'social justice' go out the window when a big payday is involved. Almost like these people care exclusively about money and power and not equity or whatever bullshit they are pining on social media about. Just ask Bill Burr.

 

[Toons]

Bloody hell.

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, and as others and myself have said plenty of times elsewhere, race-swapping usually seems to go in one direction these days. More often than not, it is established white characters being recast as black characters.

Maybe there is some historical irony there, given how often Asian characters were whitewashed in older films. But that does not make this DEI bullshit fine - two wrongs do not make a right. It just creates a different version of the same problem. What makes it more aggravating now is that criticism of it is often dismissed immediately as racism or bigotry, which always happens in these threads across the Gaming and OT boards.

The double standard is what gets me. If Black Panther and the Wakandans were suddenly recast as white actors, nobody would seriously accept "it's just fantasy, bro" as an excuse. People would rightly call it out because Wakanda has a specific cultural identity and place within that fictional world.

As others have pointed out, fantasy does not mean internal consistency suddenly stops mattering. The setting, history, culture, and visual identity of a world are part of what makes it believable. When those things are treated as disposable, especially to game the goddamn Academy, it can break immersion.

Yes, The Odyssey might still end up being a damn fine movie, but it would probably be a stronger one if it respected that logic.

And the ironic thing is, I would absolutely go to war if they whitewashed Black Panther or Wakanda, and I am sure others here would too. Toons & DeafTourette , unless you don't care either way, we would be in the thick of it decrying and condemning this shit beside you.

But when established white characters are changed, the response is often "who cares snowflake, it's fantasy,' or "it's art" and anyone who objects gets accused of racism.

That double standard is the issue. People are tired of being told their concerns are automatically hateful when the same concerns would be treated as valid in the opposite direction. Like with Star Wars and Trek though, I am getting to the point where I am almost beyond caring.

Youre still missing the forest for the trees because you've decided arbitrarily that this is being done for political reasons.

All signs point to that not being the case.

Nolan is not playing favorites here. Hes not enacting this double standard. He has raced swapped ethnic people to white and hes done the same to white people.

Yet he's being pugeonholed in with so called far left Hollywood elite and being touted as an example of some kind of loss of integrity for film works.

Hes explained his casting choices and his approach to this movie makes it clear hes not even attempting some sort of political equilibrium patty cake logic. Hes throwing out any semblance of groundedness or accuracy and we saw that from the beginning.

The response to this however is EXCLUSIVELY political in nature. Its anti artistic expression, its shallow, its baseless.

 

[Moondoggy]

Theres many many live action ones i can show as well but you're missing the point.

The point is being loosely and wildly adapted in manners very different from the orifnal is kinda the entire Greek pantheons main thing in media and has been for decades. Eveey single figure of Greek myth has had this done to them and I wasn't hearing anything about "respect for Greek culture" then.

This complaint for a movie from this director seems inorganic as a result.

Amd as my initial post stated, which everyone has glossed over, I believe he has an artistic reason for doing this, not a political driven one. That should alter the response.

I'm not missing the point of anything, make relevant comparisons, plenty of live action movies based around Greek myth at least attempt to cast people similar to how they were described or depicted, this is just Christopher Nolan's ego valuing his version of the story over actually respecting other people's culture.

 

[Toons]

No one thinks Killmonger is a "good guy". They just agreed that Wakanda should have opened up and fought injustices in neighboring African countries.

Killmonger is unambigupusly portrayed as evil in the movie. He kills more black people on the movie than white people lmao! On screen, and in cold blood.

Just completely disingenuous how these arguments go.

 

[Moondoggy]

I hope next year they make a movie about The tales of Anansi the African spider trickster and put a bunch of white people in it just so we can see the people get offended that are defending the casting choices in this movie. Cause ya know it's definitely about artistic expression and totally not just subversive Hollywood identity politics involved in the casting of this movie.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Both movies were advertised as adaptations of myth.

Chris Nolan is very deliberately not focusing on accuracy and we knew that before the controversial casting was even announced based on the costume designs and such.

But it being a "silly movie" has not absolved other movies in the past and wouldn't absolve any Disney animated movie today either. We all know that. And that to me is also a double standard, or at least a lost one. Because that Hercules movie is pretty good.



That doesn't argue with what i said. She in her own words claimed she wasn't aware of the original characters ethnicity and once she found out didnt want to participate in a race swapped role. She was not forced out. And if Hollywood is so bent on promoting leftist anti white messages they wouldn't have hired her in the first place.

It was HER politics that led her to leave the role.



Did you read the caption? He ALSO didn't know about the original chatactwr and didn't want to play a race swapped role. Once again, it was his personal stance that led to his own decision go leave it.



I never denied that. I've been very clear about what I'm arguing here.

I dont doubt there's been an overcorrection. But I also think there's been an OVERREACTION. And those both contribute to the same problem.

And I certainly reject the notion is some Hollywood leftist cabal running this.

As for bane, his origin is more based in realism than Helen of troys. Both are either valid targets of the discourse or neither are.



So you're just asking for reverse quotas then? Or are you asking for things to go back the way they were before? Or, in the spirt of what nolan is doing, disregarding all the external BS and just hiring actors he likes? Honestly that might be the way to go moving forward.



Should she have been forced to drop the role? If she wanted to and choice to, would that be a bad thing? She didn't cast herself. She got praised for her PERFORMANCE, she had nothing to do with the casting.

As I've already mentioned, there's no shortage of race swapped roles that have received immense praise. Even the deep I mentioned before has received praise. None of that praise is due to his race or the race of the character he's playing.

You have a lot to say that no one cares about and no a Disney cartoon would not be under this microscope. The Odyssey movie looks dumb, has dumb concepts, and is deliberately trying to push the envelope in the wrong direction and I hope it bombs.

 

[IDKFA]

That doesn't argue with what i said. She in her own words claimed she wasn't aware of the original characters ethnicity and once she found out didnt want to participate in a race swapped role. She was not forced out. And if Hollywood is so bent on promoting leftist anti white messages they wouldn't have hired her in the first place.

It was HER politics that led her to leave the role.



Did you read the caption? He ALSO didn't know about the original chatactwr and didn't want to play a race swapped role. Once again, it was his personal stance that led to his own decision go leave it.

Oh please. You're telling me neither of them were aware? You can't be that naive.

I never denied that. I've been very clear about what I'm arguing here.

I dont doubt there's been an overcorrection. But I also think there's been an OVERREACTION. And those both contribute to the same problem.

Perhaps if there wasn't such a double standard then maybe there wouldn't be such a strong reaction.

And I certainly reject the notion is some Hollywood leftist cabal running this.

I don't think that either.

So you're just asking for reverse quotas then? Or are you asking for things to go back the way they were before? Or, in the spirt of what nolan is doing, disregarding all the external BS and just hiring actors he likes? Honestly that might be the way to go moving forward.

I want to see no more double standards. Not one rule for one group and a separate rule for the other. Why is this hard to understand?

Should she have been forced to drop the role? If she wanted to and choice to, would that be a bad thing? She didn't cast herself. She got praised for her PERFORMANCE, she had nothing to do with the casting.

I have nothing against her. It's just an example of the double standard at play.

As I've already mentioned, there's no shortage of race swapped roles that have received immense praise. Even the deep I mentioned before has received praise. None of that praise is due to his race or the race of the character he's playing.

You have been very selective here.

In regards to The Deep and say, Nick Fury, race swapping them isn't an issue.

Both the Deep and Nick Fury (understand he was only white in the main universe) live in a modern fictional United States. Swapping their race made zero difference to their background, lore, story etc. Nick Fury and the Deep could be white, Asian, black etc.

But can we apply the same to all fictional characters? Swapping T'Challa to Asian or white would be a different story, no? What about Blade? Can he be a different races? I'm not sure people would agree to that one either.

 

[Moondoggy]

You have a lot to say that no one cares about and no a Disney cartoon would not be under this microscope. The Odyssey movie looks dumb, has dumb concepts, and is deliberately trying to push the envelope in the wrong direction and I hope it bombs.

 

[Hypnotoad]

To adapt a popular expression from recent years: It's amazing how much people defending raceswapping and cultural appropriation by Hollywood are pretending not to understand things, thus making discourse impossible.

 

[VulcanRaven]

You have a lot to say that no one cares about and no a Disney cartoon would not be under this microscope. The Odyssey movie looks dumb, has dumb concepts, and is deliberately trying to push the envelope in the wrong direction and I hope it bombs.

I'm sure most who see the new trailer in a movie theatre are going to be impressed. Just image someone who doesn't know about the so called controversy. The trailer looks epic.

 

[Toons]

Oh please. You're telling me neither of them were aware? You can't be that naive.

If you haven't read the source material, why would you be aware? I read comics but ive never read hellboy so I didnt even know. Its entirely feasible she didn't know because she hadn't read marty supreme lol. Most actors haven't read all the source material for all their roles.

Perhaps if there wasn't such a double standard then maybe there wouldn't be such a strong reaction.

The reaction is the only thing you could possible attribute the double standard to. The casting very much is not. Hollywood is still very ok with race swapping in either direction. As your two above examples prove.

I don't think that either.



I want to see no more double standards. Not one rule for one group and a separate rule for the other. Why is this hard to understand?

Again, you're attributing that to the casting but the casting doesn't offer a double standard. Not for this oddyseey film and not for most movies. Most movies, the producers dont give af who you hire as long as they don't hurt rhe bottom line. Some INDIVIDUALS may not be for that, but thats on a case by case basis.

Ridley Scott when he was making that moses movie gods and kings(for which he cast Christian bale, a white British guy to play moses) actually said he couldn't get producer money if hed casting the movie accurately. Now, a decade later I have people telling me Chris Nolan is being forced to put black people in movies lmao.

I have nothing against her. It's just an example of the double standard at play.



You have been very selective here.

In regards to The Deep and say, Nick Fury, race swapping them isn't an issue.

Both the Deep and Nick Fury (understand he was only white in the main universe) live in a modern fictional United States. Swapping their race made zero difference to their background, lore, story etc. Nick Fury and the Deep could be white, Asian, black etc.

But can we apply the same to all fictional characters? Swapping T'Challa to Asian or white would be a different story, no? What about Blade? Can he be a different races? I'm not sure people would agree to that one either.

This is actually where I tend to fall on this exactly.

If the characters origin is important to their race or informs it than it should not be changed. If it isn't, its fair game.

What you'll find though is that there ISNT any black superheroes who's race is not a deliberate decision influenced from their creation. Blades creator marvel Wolfman specifically said he pitched the character to dc because he wanted to see more POC superheroes. That was also a deliberate case for tchalla(who is from ah African nation that was never colonized, so no chance of being white there) and every other black charactwr in comics history. Because believe it or not, we aren't that far removed from the times when doing that was a controversial decision.

This doesn't just go one way though. Wolverine should always be white. Bruce Wayne would probably always be white if you're adapting the comics. Would I boycott a movie with a Latino or a Samoan Bruce Wayne? No, but I wouldn't cast someone from that background to okay a comics accurate version.

Perhaps there will one day be a time when we are removed from that, and then we will get characters who's race is inconsequential to their story. But we aren't there yet.

 

[SlimySnake]

Funny how morals and 'social justice' go out the window when a big payday is involved. Almost like these people care exclusively about money and power and not equity or whatever bullshit they are pining on social media about. Just ask Bill Burr.

yeah, all these actors talk a big game, but then make the wrong choices instead of just saying no. A simple no thanks from Lupita wouldve averted this entire controversy.

 

[jason10mm]

yeah, all these actors talk a big game, but then make the wrong choices instead of just saying no. A simple no thanks from Lupita wouldve averted this entire controversy.

I don't blame her. She is a naturalized US citizen now so she doesn't need to take on work just to stay in the US but I'm sure she has bills to pay. Whatever discussions between her agent, manager, and Nolans casting team to put her in the audition process (or a straight offer, who knows?) don't really reflect on the actor if they just show up, do the job, and then fuck off. It's the actors that politicize their casting or dumb shit like Rachel Zeigler that tick me off. It's Nolans headspace to be making all these seemingly bizarre choices that I question.

 

[DiamondHands]

And the ironic thing is, I would absolutely go to war if they whitewashed Black Panther or Wakanda, and I am sure others here would too. Toons & DeafTourette , unless you don't care either way, we would be in the thick of it decrying and condemning this shit beside you.

They did and no one cared...

 

[John Bilbo]

To adapt a popular expression from recent years: It's amazing how much people defending raceswapping and cultural appropriation by Hollywood are pretending not to understand things, thus making discourse impossible.

Correctamundo.

Forcing a conversation with someone feigning stupid is just plain waste of time.

 

[rkofan87]

I don't think Nolan is not being forced by anyone. If this were the case then Robert Eggers wouldn't have been able to make the Northman.

also Nolan would not have been able to make Oppenheimer

 

[IDKFA]

If you haven't read the source material, why would you be aware? I read comics but ive never read hellboy so I didnt even know. Its entirely feasible she didn't know because she hadn't read marty supreme lol. Most actors haven't read all the source material for all their roles.

They knew and wouldn't have backed out if there was no backlash.

The reaction is the only thing you could possible attribute the double standard to. The casting very much is not. Hollywood is still very ok with race swapping in either direction. As your two above examples prove.

Those two examples of minor fictional characters. The two that had to be reversed because of online backlash. That doesn't disprove the double standard, especially in the context of historical figures. You know this.

Again, you're attributing that to the casting but the casting doesn't offer a double standard.

But it does. We can have non-white actors play historical white figures because it's seen as progressive.

Ridley Scott when he was making that moses movie gods and kings(for which he cast Christian bale, a white British guy to play moses) actually said he couldn't get producer money if hed casting the movie accurately.

A very good example of the reverse. This, as well as Gods of Egypt, got a massive amount of stick from people who were against the casting. This could be the start of the overcorrection that you referred to in a previous post.

Scott's lack of apology also received a lot of backlash and calls to boycott the movie.

However, if these examples were wrong, then is going in the other direction also wrong? I don't see the same backlash from the press of Netflix race swapping Queen Charlotte.

Now, a decade later I have people telling me Chris Nolan is being forced to put black people in movies lmao.

I haven't seen any evidence he was forced.

This is actually where I tend to fall on this exactly.

If the characters origin is important to their race or informs it than it should not be changed. If it isn't, its fair game.

Where does one draw the line?

What about Robin Hood? Probably fictional (I say that as a proud English man), but could we race swap him? Would it make sense for a 12th century English outlaw to be anything other than white?

How about Liongo Fumo, a Swahili warrior-king from the 9th or 13th centry and like Robin Hood, his historical existence is debated. Can he be race swapped?

 

[Giallo Corsa]

My man Toons keeps doubling, tripling and quadrupling down with constant "what about-isms" while also playing coy and it is something to behold...

Just...stop. Stop trying to go against the grain and manufacture a conversation.
You have already decided that everyone is racist, so why even bother writing entire paragraphs?
Who or what are you trying to defend here exactly ? 'Cause we already know who you're against.

This is pointless at this stage. It's just circular talking without anything substantive coming out of it.

Fucking hell man, this forum sometimes, I swear...

 

[John Bilbo]

My man Toons keeps doubling, tripling and quadrupling down with constant "what about-isms" while also playing coy and it is something to behold...

You married that man!??

Maybe I should become a Toons-like

 

[kpopSuperstar]

If the characters origin is important to their race or informs it than it should not be changed.

But Helen of Troy is that, important to the culture of Greece and Europe, way more than any superhero or Hollywood creation.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

They did and no one cared...

I remember this, I'm fine with it

 

[EviLore]

Oh dear lord. Emily Wilson describing what's Wrong with The Odyssey.



Good luck making it through all 3 minutes and 55 seconds.

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

 

[Dr Bass]

Oh dear lord. Emily Wilson describing what's Wrong with The Odyssey.



Good luck making it through all 3 minutes and 55 seconds.

Didn't make it.

 

[John Bilbo]

Oh dear lord. Emily Wilson describing what's Wrong with The Odyssey.



Good luck making it through all 3 minutes and 55 seconds.

Huh!

 

[calico]

It's time.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

It seems that Nolan is really living long enough to see himself become the villain, huh?

 

[Sohurmk833]

Youre still missing the forest for the trees because you've decided arbitrarily that this is being done for political reasons.

It is. Hollywood is run by hardcore leftists who hate western civilization and want to tear it down. There is zero doubt that this movie is another deliberate attack on European culture/history.

 

[Mengy]

This is AI of course, but it made me laugh!

 

[IDKFA]

Oh dear lord. Emily Wilson describing what's Wrong with The Odyssey.



Good luck making it through all 3 minutes and 55 seconds.

Made it to 36 seconds then tapped out.

Maybe it's male dominated because men don't try to change the translation to suit a modern agenda

 

[EviLore]

Made it to 36 seconds then tapped out.

Maybe it's male dominated because men don't try to change the translation to suit a modern agenda

Then you missed such gems as Emily saying that Odysseus and crew are the evil white patriarchal colonizers vs the Cyclops Polyphemus who is an unfairly maligned nonwhite minority human being attacked in his home.

Also she, as expected, deeply resents Penelope for remaining faithful.

Men love the Odyssey because it's a celebration of patriarchy, misogyny, and consumerism (???). But really Odysseus is just oppressing the suitors and Penelope and the other victims in his household massacre by coming home.

 

[John Bilbo]

Then you missed such gems as Emily saying that Odysseus and crew are the evil white patriarchal colonizers vs the Cyclops Polyphemus who is an unfairly maligned nonwhite minority human being attacked in his home.

Also she, as expected, deeply resents Penelope for remaining faithful.

Men love the Odyssey because it's a celebration of patriarchy, misogyny, and consumerism (???). But really Odysseus is just oppressing the suitors and Penelope and the other victims in his household massacre by coming home.

The pattern recognition of the human mind is really something.

 

[violence]

Hit me right in the feels. Real representation finally.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Nolan is being forced to put black people in movies lmao.

NO. It's HIS choice because he wants to win Oscars and this is the easiest way for him to get the academy approval. There's nothing "artistic" about this decision.

Look, the problem here is that Nolan has become a brand by himself, it's a way of making cinema. You don't expect this kind of bullshit from him. If the movie was made by Paul W. Anderson, it would have stirred near zero controversy because nobody would expect good worldbuilding or fidelity to the source material from him.

Perhaps there will one day be a time when we are removed from that, and then we will get characters who's race is inconsequential to their story. But we aren't there yet.

What you are saying here is straight-up dystopian, borderline antihuman.

Race or ethnicities if you will, entail an origin, personal or familiar, to that character, and you can't replace it with another one without altering their stories. This is not how real life works. We are the result of a chain of historical events that defined our origins.

 

[jason10mm]

Oh dear lord. Emily Wilson describing what's Wrong with The Odyssey.



Good luck making it through all 3 minutes and 55 seconds.

I really hope the audience for this.......lecture..... does what they show in movies when a kook is delivering horseshit on stage, one by one they all leave until there is just one crazy person left watching.

I only made it 20 seconds but her premise that "old white men" are inherently misogynistic and biased, while woman MIGHT not all be staunch post-modern feminists......I find that laughable and shocked she could even say it out loud and not laugh herself.

 

[Toons]

NO. It's HIS choice because he wants to win Oscars and this is the easiest way for him to get the academy approval. There's nothing "artistic" about this decision.

Look, the problem here is that Nolan has become a brand by himself, it's a way of making cinema. You don't expect this kind of bullshit from him. If the movie was made by Paul W. Anderson, it would have stirred near zero controversy because nobody would expect good worldbuilding or fidelity to the source material from him.

If Nolan was as desperate for Oscar's as you claim, theres a lot more potebt Oscar bait to make than the odyssey and casting a single black woman in a minor role wouldn't have increased his chances significantly. He already got plenty of Oscar buzz for Oppenheimer and there's minimal POC actors in any of the advertisement or anything.

No, Nolan told you already why he's taking the approach hes taking. Its got nothing to do with oscars. Its got everything to do with reframing these characters as archetypal figures and this story as an archetypal story and prioritizing that over any of the historical elements. That id present not only in the casting but in the set design and costuming. Which I will remind you again, was drawing controversy even before Lupita was announced to be in the cast.

Nolans brand is that and that alone: he makes the movies he wants to make, he makes blockbusters a lot of effort, a bit of heart and a little inkling of high concept artistry.

What you are saying here is straight-up dystopian, borderline antihuman.

Its the opposite actually. My perspective elevates innate humanity and talent and the craft of performance over the arbitrary boxes we file ourselves into.

Race or ethnicities if you will, entail an origin, personal or familiar, to that character, and you can't replace it with another one without altering their stories. This is not how real life works. We are the result of a chain of historical events that defined our origins.

Our cureent understanding of race is not only far removed from anything anyone contributing to the original odyssey would've even considered, but it is relatively recent in the span of human history.

And make no mistake. It will change again. Its just a matter of time.

Our story is a shared one. And the stories we tell, and the ones we share, influence future stories we tell and share. If you don't believe me, look at how much influence Christianity and Islam and Buddhism have had on the larger world.

 

[violence]

It might be the Oscars, but you become influenced by your environment. The woke Cult has taken over California. People that go into the arts tend to be even more left leaning. My theory is the only people cutting the checks and Nolan can hire are the weirdos.

 

[jason10mm]

It's time.

I'm not educated enough to confirm, but there is a guy on instagram who puts out the theory that the "Harriet Tubman story" was basically created by a white woman, Sarah Hopkins Bradford, or at least so heavily embellished with unsubstantiated events that its largely fiction. I suspect it's more exaggerated than invented and basically accurate, but it just goes to show how little we really know of a lot of historic sacred cows that work their way into the general culture.

Seeing how the media can create or destroy people in real time now, just imagine how easy it was back then when access to information distribution was so much harder. Also puts to light how a single war between two city states can morph into the Iliad and one guys account of coming home with some hic-ups turns into the Odyssey

 

[GateofD]

Asian actors: wonder when it's our turn to be cast as race swapped white people

Hollywood: you will forever stay as marital art or chef roles and like it. Maybe a few doctors.

 

[IDKFA]

Then you missed such gems as Emily saying that Odysseus and crew are the evil white patriarchal colonizers vs the Cyclops Polyphemus who is an unfairly maligned nonwhite minority human being attacked in his home.

Also she, as expected, deeply resents Penelope for remaining faithful.

Men love the Odyssey because it's a celebration of patriarchy, misogyny, and consumerism (???). But really Odysseus is just oppressing the suitors and Penelope and the other victims in his household massacre by coming home.

Lol what the fuck

How is she serious? How did she get a publishing deal by blatantly butchering the source material with her own insane views?

Why is Nolan using this as his translation?

I don't understand the current trend of feminists wanting to put their own spin on Greek mythology. It's such a crazy trend. To be honest, it actually pisses me off because it's disrespectful to Greek culture.

 

[GymWolf]

Nolan using her version is far worse than any casting choice if you ask me...

 

[jason10mm]

Lol what the fuck

How is she serious? How did she get a publishing deal by blatantly butchering the source material with her own insane views?

Why is Nolan using this as his translation?

I don't understand the current trend of feminists wanting to put their own spin on Greek mythology. It's such a crazy trend. To be honest, it actually pisses me off because it's disrespectful to Greek culture.

It's all part of the subversion. Also, in academia you can't really make a name for yourself if you just repeat what others have done before, you gotta "blaze a new trail!" and its WAAAAAAY easier to "re-translate" a popular work and put your spin on it than it is to go find untranslated stuff, do the research, and then try to market it to a public ignorant of it.

Plus, feminists are pretty locked out of a lot of the translation game since, like most things, it's almost all men doing the writing. So they either all harp on the same few women (hey look, it's ANOTHER feminist book about Anne Boylen, Joan of Arc, or Marie Antoinette!) or they have to "read between the misogynistic lines" to pull out women and (largely) invent what they may have been thinking. You CAN do this by extensively cross referencing lots of documents, but trust me, its WAY easier to just make it all up and then hide behind feminist doctrine whilst calling your critics "misogynistic old white men".

 

[John Bilbo]

Lol what the fuck

How is she serious? How did she get a publishing deal by blatantly butchering the source material with her own insane views?

Why is Nolan using this as his translation?

I don't understand the current trend of feminists wanting to put their own spin on Greek mythology. It's such a crazy trend. To be honest, it actually pisses me off because it's disrespectful to Greek culture.

It could be done out of spite... while feigning to be an innocent little girl

 

[DeafTourette]

I'm not educated enough to confirm, but there is a guy on instagram who puts out the theory that the "Harriet Tubman story" was basically created by a white woman, Sarah Hopkins Bradford, or at least so heavily embellished with unsubstantiated events that its largely fiction. I suspect it's more exaggerated than invented and basically accurate, but it just goes to show how little we really know of a lot of historic sacred cows that work their way into the general culture.

Seeing how the media can create or destroy people in real time now, just imagine how easy it was back then when access to information distribution was so much harder. Also puts to light how a single war between two city states can morph into the Iliad and one guys account of coming home with some hic-ups turns into the Odyssey

That guy doubts a black woman could do anything remotely close to what she did so it HAS to be made up by a white woman? Even though we have pictures of Harriet Tubman? Even though there is documentation about her?

Wild!

 

[jason10mm]

That guy doubts a black woman could do anything remotely close to what she did so it HAS to be made up by a white woman? Even though we have pictures of Harriet Tubman? Even though there is documentation about her?

Wild!

Not that she didn't exist, but that her exploits during the civil war were invented or at least greatly embellished in order to raise money. And hey, we see this kind of stuff happening RIGHT NOW with various gofundmes, charities, and whatnot.

Beginnings – Harriet Tubman: Legends and Literature

So, like a lot of historic figures, there is the "folk hero" aspect, then there is the nitty gritty of them being an actual human. Does it diminish the person that events were attributed to them that they didn't do, or the bounty wasn't as high, or they didn't save as many people? Probably not.

I don't care either way, I'm certainly not going to bat for pro-slavery shit. I grew up on the same "Black History Month" anecdotes you did as we were likely raised just a few hundred miles apart. But the harsh eye of subsequent (perhaps even revisionist?) historical analysis falls on everyone and I can accept the duality of Harriet Tubman the folk hero and the woman just like I can for George Washington, Napolean, Alexander the Great, and Christopher Columbus.

 

[IDKFA]

Our cureent understanding of race is not only far removed from anything anyone contributing to the original odyssey would've even considered, but it is relatively recent in the span of human history.

This is actually historically accurate on its own merits as the Greeks did not view the world through the lens of modern racial categories, and our current concept of race is a relatively recent invention in human history.

However, if this historical truth is being used to justify a modern creative preference, then that's probably the wrong approach to take.

The Greeks may not have understood our concept of race, but they cared immensely about specific geography and lineages. The Odyssey and wider Greek myths are deeply rooted in real Mediterranean geography, local genealogies, and tribal identities.

To the Greeks, Achilles wasn't just a generic guy. He was a Thessalian, a Myrmidon. Odysseus wasn't just a random bloke from Mediterranean. He was specifically Ithacan. Any adaptation that treats Greek myth as a completely colorblind, placeless fantasy ignores how explicitly tied these stories were to the physical, cultural landscape of the Aegean Sea.

While the Greeks didn't have a modern racial understanding, they did have an awareness of what different peoples looked like. Fun fact; The Greeks interacted with black people from sub-Saharan Africa and referred to them as Aithiopians (Ethiopians), which literally translates to "burnt-face." I should add that this wasn't a racial slur but just a physical description.

If you asked a resident of Athens what the most important division among humans was, they would say whether a person was a Hellene (Greek) or a Barbarian. So a Greek seeing this Nolan version would question why the whole cast are Barbarians

But as I've said before, it's pointless trying to justify this based on what people would say who lived over a thousand years ago.

Even if we accept the premise that Homer wouldn't have understood modern race, the modern audience watching the adaptation absolutely does.

If a film uses entirely colorblind casting in a historical or mythological setting without a clear narrative reason, it can break the suspense of disbelief for the audience, making the production feel like a modern theater exercise rather than an immersive journey into the ancient Mediterranean world. To be honest, that's how I felt watching the trailers. I don't feel like I'm being transported back in time. I feel like I'm watching a student production or an AI generated film.

 

[jason10mm]

If you asked a resident of Athens what the most important division among humans was, they would say whether a person was a Hellene (Greek) or a Barbarian. So a Greek seeing this Nolan version would question why the whole cast are Barbarians

TBH I think ancient greeks would see CURRENT greeks as barbarians, as so many cultural touchstones would be different, including religion ("you have abandoned the Gods to worship the god of Judea?!?!?!?") and probably a hundred other things we don't think much about today.

Conversely, they MIGHT see western civ as their direct descendants, i.e. the Greeks 'won' and all of europe/america is a giant colony, certainly brits, germans, and frenchies today are probably much more 'greek-like' than the tribes that inhabited those areas in 300 BC. This most definitely would have been the case 100 years ago when a "liberal education" included extensive study of the greek classics and quite a few learned to read ancient greek. In that case most of the cast would be "greek adjacent" at least.