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The Order 1886: Shooting & melee, graphics, thick atmosphere, explorable alleyways
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
No, that's an interpretation on your part, based on assumption. What it actually states is that they're still working on the balance between exploration and linear storytelling, they want to do some exploration, but their primary goal is to take the player on a ride. However, the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. It is possible for exploration to be part of the ride, so there's no clear way to precisely quantify the balance of linear vs. open yet, not based on this comment.
shinobi602
Member
You're not a true gamer.
Industry cancer.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I'm with you, bro.
So I have been told...
Edit: Just to be sure, that is sarcasm, right?
Oppo
Member
Ah, I mentioned the stage example because of the "obvious light source" comment, moving around characters etc. (And I wouldn't say RaD's example is purely to do with film stock effects or what have you; they spend a lot of time talking about particulates in the air, which is also used in stage production to create glow effects and other moods.)
Obviously there is a familiarity with the look of filmed entertainment, and the old storytelling technique/art that was mentioned previously. But nearly everything "captured" image-wise in the real world passes through a piece of glass at some level. I think the point is to try and recreate that effect.
Your point seems to be – why copy film? Why not invent your own look for games? I would say that is already happening. Take The Unfinished Swan, or cell-shaded games (Valkyria Chronicles comes to mind), or some of the more experimental ones (maybe Antichamber). I think those examples are that of games deliberately eschewing a "standard" look for a more specific, stylized look. You could even make the argument for stuff like late 3D Mario games.
But more to the point, it's hard to invent a completely new visual language. And not always necessary. One of the (faux) physical effects I really enjoyed in AC4 was the fact that the camera lens is sorta dirty and fucked up, when light passes through it. It made thematic sense within that game. There was no real reason to try and invent something out of whole cloth when there's a proven technique right there, you know?
Anyways if you want more go check out some of the SIGGRAPH videos about Physically Based Rendering, it's fascinating stuff.
I want something that's graphically rich and dense, showing off next gen to the max. Some of these new open world games look pretty great, so I can only imagine how a focused single-player 'corridor' shooter would look.
Watchdogs is arguably suffering because people have had their open world fix with GTAV, there's only so many of those games you can sink your teeth into.
Watchdogs is arguably suffering because people have had their open world fix with GTAV, there's only so many of those games you can sink your teeth into.
Night Angel
Member
This better happen.Grimløck;93355510 said:
Pretty calm here. Sorry to jump on you in particular, my comment should have been more obnoxiously geared to the plethora of folks saying this game is a failure for being linear.
If you (general you, not specific you) don't like linear, cinematic TPS games, why were you even interested in this one in the first place? Why even bother coming into this thread to let everyone know how much you hate the genre? I don't go into MMO threads to whine about how I hate MMOs. It adds nothing to the discussion.
That would be a rather literal interpretation of "thick atmosphere." I would laugh at first, then cry.
You are wise sir.
NullPointer
Member
I for one was hoping for more, but the lion share of the talk seems to be about presentation and mood.
That's fine for a short reveal, but its been a while now and whats new? Presentation and mood and backstory.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Man the leaps some of you make. Has there been a game since Turok that has used fog to hide the rendering viewport?
You know what I bet they set the game in London so they could say the fog was just part of the scene atmosphere but in reality were using it to hide gaming assets! Realistic fog isn't processor heavy at all
Holy Shit at those raptors coming out of the Fog!
My point is that things like lens distortion are not really a good thing. In fact, some people working with cameras even find them undesirable (this, of course, depends on the lens, the situation and personal taste). The option to take out the lens distortion of an image in Adobe Camera Raw isn't there for no reason. To my understanding it's really more a limitation of film and photography than it is an advantage of it (mind you, I'm not a photographer or cinematographer so if anyone wants to correct me on that, feel free to). So it doesn't make any sense to me to artificially apply these limitations when you've got a medium that's blessed with not having them.
With other things like shaky camera movements it actually makes sense (depending on how and where you use it, obviously) because they, for example, let you convey the panic or rush felt by the character in a certain situation. But lens distortion? That doesn't have any storytelling value (unless we're talking about a game like Outlast where you actually see much of the gameplay through a camera but that's quite the exception) and it's really more an aesthetic flaw than anything else.
But obviously, not everyone shares this opinion which is not at all a bad thing. And I also don't mean to hate on The Order or RaD. I'm extremely excited for the story and universe they're setting up with this game and can't wait to play the game (I'm a sucker for Victorian London and Steampunk). I just don't quite get the need to play into and support the preconceived aesthetic expectations created by movies seemingly just for the sake of it.
Still sounds interesting to me. I like what they've shown and what they've said about their game so far. The more linear approach they seem to be taking sounds fine to me. A fully explorable environment sounds great on paper but if there isn't interesting things to do in it then that openness doesn't really matter. But only further information, videos, and hands on will prove if their direction works. I'm still optimistic.
Pristine_Condition
Member
You could frame this argument the other way too...
-Why shoot the beach landing scene in Saving Private Ryan with the 45º shutter? That was an artistic choice to achieve a different kind of a rather obvious reference to a "filmic look" too.
...or even more obviously to our point:
-Why shoot Scott Pilgrim to look like a videogame? The story certainly could have been told without injecting all those visual cues from gaming in there. It could have been shot like a straight-up fantasy film. It was an artistic choice to achieve a hybrid real-life/videogame look.
It's not a question of "proving" that using virtual lenses and other filmic visual cues make a game better...It's allowing artists to follow their vision, informed by other media or not as they choose, and to do the best they can with the tools and techniques they choose to utilize. That's their job.
Your "job" as a consumer is to judge for yourself whether it works or not, as a completed work. Your challenge as a critic will now be to do so without becoming so invested in your own pre-judged argument that "filmic sucks," that you've made it impossible to concede that perhaps you were wrong when you see the completed work.
I feel like we're approaching this from two different POVs. One is the POV of an artist and the other that of a designer (of course, there's a certain overlap between the two). The artist does things that feel right and doesn't need much of a reason for it. They just follow their artistic vision which could be as abstract as a certain feeling or mood. The designer is a bit more practical and bases more of their decisions on thinking and logic than feeling. They ask why a certain thing should or shouldn't be done.
I feel like I'm coming more from the designer POV and you're coming more from the artist POV. Neither of which is wrong as far as I'm concerned. They're just very different approaches in this case.
Yep. It reminds me of those saying "now devs have all this new power why are the games not all 60fps?", its all design decisions.
It's not really their decision. Sony has to make the call. I suspect they're waiting because they want to use the first months of 2014 to drum up hype for Driveclub and inFamous: Second Son and don't want their own franchises to cannibalise each others' hype. So they migth very well be waiting till those are released. But I could be wrong...man, I really hope I'm wrong
.Pristine_Condition
Member
I think you started coming around from your first post, but now you at dipping back into an over-simplified, and rather nonsensical view again.
I have worked exclusively in photography, video, and cine, so I'll readily grant I don't know the inner workings of game development. But I'd imagine anyone doing lighting design on a major game title is far more likely to have considerable artistic chops (like their counterparts in film) and to be very in-tune with the artistic concerns expressed by the art director and the director than you seem to allow in your post. Indeed, the few postings I've seen for such industry jobs in the past leads me to believe that many of the folks filling these jobs have backgrounds more similar to mine than someone doing lighting design at a more "practical" level, like an architecture firm.
I also don't find that artists are as unconcerned with practical matters as you are attempting to argue either. If I were designing lighting for a game, I'd be just as mindful to practical concerns as if I were designing lighting for a room set on a photoshoot, or a film set. That is, to work in what I'd want to do artistically while preserving a "sense of place" in the scene as much as possible.
The best movies ever made are linear, yet they deliver an emotional experience like nothing else out there. There's nothing wrong with a game if it offers an entertaining, directed experience that triggers emotions from the player. The problem occurs, when the story isn't good enough for the direction and the game becomes a melodrama in which characters act/chose/decide for the sake of dramatic tension and not because of logic or reason.
If the Order is one of the former, then I'll play the shit out of it, if it isn't, then I probably just going to watch a playthrough. Franky however, when a developer puts so much attentions on details it is a bit unlikely for the game to be shallow or rushed. I trust in R@D, they're a good team, filled with ambition to create something uniqe, which leads to passion and love.
Also, open world, non-linear experiences can become boring extremely fast, as I was with GTA V. It's all shiny and good, but it's just not serious enough for the story they've tried to pull off.
If the Order is one of the former, then I'll play the shit out of it, if it isn't, then I probably just going to watch a playthrough. Franky however, when a developer puts so much attentions on details it is a bit unlikely for the game to be shallow or rushed. I trust in R@D, they're a good team, filled with ambition to create something uniqe, which leads to passion and love.
Also, open world, non-linear experiences can become boring extremely fast, as I was with GTA V. It's all shiny and good, but it's just not serious enough for the story they've tried to pull off.
well to be fair this isn't like them doing a press release or a post via psblog or anything. When media outlets interview them and ask questions, they answer, and will continue to do so.
I want to see the game in action real bad too but I don't fault them for answering questions
VindicatorZ
Member
The game doesn't have to be open world at all or anything. But it would be a shame if we couldn't explore some environments like the ones in this concept art.
As long as you can walk around here a little bit, maybe enter a few buildings and interact with some NPC's to break up the action, it should be great.
I also hope there's melee weapons such as swords. The Order has been fighting for hundreds if not thousands of years so these Knights must be proficient in some sword fighting. It would be an action game/ action shooter, hopefully with some light exploration and maybe even a little puzzle solving. More RE4 less Gears of War.
Very excited to see more.
viveks86
Gold Member
Why do folks like you have to be the first post? You obviously really dont give a crap about everything else posted. I for one dont want every game to be some open world bullshit chore fest just so I can go across town to find some stupid ass part to bring back to a machine to open the door over the mountain.
TrojanBlade
Member
This obsession with "open world" is getting ridiculous on this forum. Not every f'in game has to be open world. They both can exists and fun to play.
Very excited about the new info.
Very excited about the new info.
Night Angel
Member
They were answering questions in an interview. What should they have done, said "we can't show you gameplay, so fuck off"?
I mean really, it's not like the devs put out a statement saying "our game is awesome, wait and see." They were asked a few questions; they answered them to the best of their current ability. If you're getting mad at the hype, get mad at the journalists who hype the game up. It has nothing to do with RAD.
I'll echo that they really need to show some footage asap from this game. I really want to see what the combat looks like in this game, and I'm especially interested in what kind of weapons they have judging by the teaser. Pretty excited for the game though, considering the two God of War games for PSP they did were fantastic.
Yeah, linearity is not synonymous with bad game design and open world is not synonymous with good game design. I like both design styles, and would personally get bored if all of my games were one style or the other. I can understand that some people prefer open world games, but I admit it is kinda tiring seeing a substantial amount of posts in every thread regarding a linear game simply lambasting the existence of linear games in general and a general attitude of "well it's linear, it can't possibly be good."
I bet if Resident Evil 4 or Half-Life 2 were releasing next year and there was a thread today with a new preview for one of those games half of the thread would be "sounds like another shitty linear corridor shooter. Pass."
Yeah, linearity is not synonymous with bad game design and open world is not synonymous with good game design. I like both design styles, and would personally get bored if all of my games were one style or the other. I can understand that some people prefer open world games, but I admit it is kinda tiring seeing a substantial amount of posts in every thread regarding a linear game simply lambasting the existence of linear games in general and a general attitude of "well it's linear, it can't possibly be good."
I bet if Resident Evil 4 or Half-Life 2 were releasing next year and there was a thread today with a new preview for one of those games half of the thread would be "sounds like another shitty linear corridor shooter. Pass."
Goodacre0081
Member
as someone who wanted a Gears of War port or sequel on PS4, this game is right up there with Destiny and the Division. I just hope they squeeze a fun MP into the package.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
Sorry to break it to you, but not all games are made for everyone. These kind of games appeal to a certain audience; if that's not you, there are many other games out there that may cater to your interests. That's the thing about people--their tastes vary widely.
Try to accept that some games are targeting a different demographic rather than bemoaning an entire (very successful) game genre.
iceatcs
Junior Member
Very madden, like obsession as holy grail. Can't wait they will show the footage, it will make people go away, and we can have real discuss whatever on this footage.
bigboss370
Member
Absolutely nothing new in all of that (from what we already knew beforehand).
But this game will be huge when it hits next year
But this game will be huge when it hits next year
This quote is very disappointing. I have no doubt that The Order will be a good game, but it looks like we are in for a game that funnels you from hallway to hallway.
Devs, I want games that give us the ability to explore, even if it's secretly funneling us from place to place, a la Dark Souls, or old Resident Evil games. I don't want to run from set piece to set piece with dudes waiting to ambush me with no other options of tackling the game other than either hiding for cover and shooting, or going guns blazing.
Jigolo
Member
Peoples hype deflating because it isn't open world is laughable. From the start I thought this was going to be a gears of war type game since I heard it was a 3rd person shooter and guess what, that's fucking fine.
This game will be like the Gears, Uncharteds, Resident Evils, dead spaces or TLoU of the world, and that's okay. Were not exactly flooded with those types of games. Especially with no presence of gears for next gen, DS is dead, and REs most recent game was trash.
This game will be like the Gears, Uncharteds, Resident Evils, dead spaces or TLoU of the world, and that's okay. Were not exactly flooded with those types of games. Especially with no presence of gears for next gen, DS is dead, and REs most recent game was trash.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
This is a good post. I wish more people thought this way instead of getting so pissed off.
shinobi602
Member
Like kaching said in the post above:
"No, that's an interpretation on your part, based on assumption. What it actually states is that they're still working on the balance between exploration and linear storytelling, they want to do some exploration, but their primary goal is to take the player on a ride. However, the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. It is possible for exploration to be part of the ride, so there's no clear way to precisely quantify the balance of linear vs. open yet, not based on this comment."
test_account
XP-39C²
Linear games have excisted for like 30 years now. I dont see why it should suddently stop now.
jackissocool
Member
Looking forward to some in depth melee in a third person shooter. That's very exciting, hopefully it doesn't disappoint.
Neuromancer
Member
Yeah. Pretty much everything this guy said made me less and less excited about this game.
I'm sure I'll still get it though for the graphics, but I really hope there's more to it than that.
Fallout-NL
Member
Not really. Different strokes for different folks. Technology is there to have bigger worlds without things like bad framerate getting in the way. That being said, not all games need to be big and sprawling, but continually seeing games that end up being hallway shooters or hallway fighters is disappointing. The most replayable games in my opinion strike a balance between guiding you and letting you figure out the methods to advance for yourself.
Again it's just about different opinions. But it's okay if people are disappointed that a style they prefer is being shrugged off for something more simplistic.