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The Outer Worlds |OT| Fully Automated Hysterical Killer Galactic Capitalism

Lanrutcon

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Feb 19, 2014
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Vicar Max's quest line resolution has killed my remaining interest in the game. It's terribly written Woke garbage where the main path appears to be stripping Max of his sense of order, purpose, and understanding of the universe in order to embrace an empty chaos of pure nihilism, via an incoherent psychedelic drug trip where he "resolves" his mother and father issues and murders his own persona. The writers seemingly frame this as an unequivocal good thing.

Sophomoric intersectional Marxism seeps through at every turn with little nuance. Nearly every woman is a highly competent engineer-warrior or doctor-warrior or leader-warrior, and nearly every man is a complete buffoon.

I didn't bother resolving Pavarti's impossibly naive and plodding lesbian dating arc.

The Obsidian that wrote KotOR 2, Mask of the Betrayer, and New Vegas no longer exists. RIP.
Weirdly enough, I didn't notice while I was playing. It was only after I'd finished the game and read your post that I ran through the game's characters in my head and went "He's right". The Board douches were all male, the settlement/faction leaders were all female except for the ones that weren't and all those had a female right-hand that was the mature one. Even the teenager who ran away to join the Outlaws ended up being fine in an environment where she should have been killed/robbed/worse. The Professor is the only competent dude I can remember, and even he was a Flawed Hero(tm).
 

Zefah

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Jan 7, 2007
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Vicar Max's quest line resolution has killed my remaining interest in the game. It's terribly written Woke garbage where the main path appears to be stripping Max of his sense of order, purpose, and understanding of the universe in order to embrace an empty chaos of pure nihilism, via an incoherent psychedelic drug trip where he "resolves" his mother and father issues and murders his own persona. The writers seemingly frame this as an unequivocal good thing.
Yeah, man... I just played this part of the quest last night and was like... "what the fuck was that nonsense?" before closing the game for the night. I kind of liked the Vicar as a character, but now he's just a complete loser.

I wonder if his dialogue and mannerisms even change going forward, since his newfound embracement for complete nihilism doesn't seem to gel with his character up to that point at all.
 
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Captiosus

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I wonder if his dialogue and mannerisms even change going forward, since his newfound embracement for complete nihilism doesn't seem to gel with his character up to that point at all.
I can answer that for you with an emphatic, "Nope." His dialog even after the companion quest is the same tone as it is before the quest and he keeps going on about the Plan and the OSI in cut scene dialog. The only thing it changes is his epilogue slideshow card.
 
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Zefah

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I can answer that for you with an emphatic, "Nope." His dialog even after the companion quest is the same tone as it is before the quest and he keeps going on about the Plan and the OSI in cut scene dialog. The only thing it changes is his end game slideshow card.
Because of course...

So far, I've found that the game world does not really react to your actions or quest progress much at all. Definitely feels rather cheap, especially when considering the much smaller scale they went for.

Another thing that bothered me was when I was on Monarch, and as part of the main quest, decided to wipe out every one of those fanatics in Amber Heights to get them to stop broadcasting their propaganda, instead of taking the diplomatic route. I then go to Stellar Bay to try to get them to stop broadcasting their nonsense, but no one at the corporation (MSI) that runs the town even acknowledged that their bitter enemies had been wiped out. Sanjar, the leader, keeps going on about his rivalry with them and I have no dialogue options to tell them that they are all dead already, including their leadership. After working with MSI, I am then presented with a mission to repel an invasion from the enemy faction that I already destroyed... sigh.
 
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EHuntingon

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Jul 30, 2013
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Because of course...

So far, I've found that the game world does not really react to your actions or quest progress much at all. Definitely feels rather cheap, especially when considering the much smaller scale they went for.

Another thing that bothered me was when I was on Monarch, and as part of the main quest, decided to wipe out every one of those fanatics in Amber Heights to get them to stop broadcasting their propaganda, instead of taking the diplomatic route. I then go to Stellar Bay to try to get them to stop broadcasting their nonsense, but no one at the corporation (MSI) that runs the town even acknowledged that their bitter enemies had been wiped out. Sanjar, the leader, keeps going on about his rivalry with them and I have no dialogue options to tell them that they are all dead already, including their leadership. After working with MSI, I am then presented with a mission to repel an invasion from the enemy faction that I already destroyed... sigh.
Oh, geez, I did the exact same thing! I assumed I just missed something. I killed everyone in Amber Heights and one of the end slides still referenced them like they were alive. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that was weird.
 
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Captiosus

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After working with MSI, I am then presented with a mission to repel an invasion from the enemy faction that I already destroyed... sigh.
I have a similar story. Second playthrough, I made a character that I intended on being a complete pro-Board psychopath. With the benefit of the first playthrough hindsight, I knew what was going to happen in Emerald Vale so decided to just go murder happy on the entire botanical lab, thinking I could then steal the power coupling. Nope. I still had to go through the rest of the Edgewater arc like normal, even listening to Parvati's little speech about the difficult choice of consigning the commune to darkness just before throwing the switch in the geothermal plant -- even though she was happily slaughtering the hippie commune by my side not half an hour earlier.

When the honeymoon period wears off I expect some will adjust their view of the game. The game offers an illusion of "play your way" but rarely delivers on it. Your character choices always come down to whether you're going to be chaotic good (pro-Phineas) or lawful evil (pro-Board), companion motivations are extremely shallow with equally shallow dialog, faction reputations mean nothing outside of vendor discounts, and skill builds are relegated moot due to the ease of the combat and the enemy AI.
 
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Mista

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What a great game. For a second I thought it’s going to be another boring Fallout but shame on me

Having lots of fun with this one!
 
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Freeman76

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I have a similar story. Second playthrough, I made a character that I intended on being a complete pro-Board psychopath. With the benefit of the first playthrough hindsight, I knew what was going to happen in Emerald Vale so decided to just go murder happy on the entire botanical lab, thinking I could then steal the power coupling. Nope. I still had to go through the rest of the Edgewater arc like normal, even listening to Parvati's little speech about the difficult choice of consigning the commune to darkness just before throwing the switch in the geothermal plant -- even though she was happily slaughtering the hippie commune by my side not half an hour earlier.

When the honeymoon period wears off I expect some will (properly) adjust their view of the game. The game offers an illusion of "play your way" but rarely delivers on it. Your character choices always come down to whether you're going to be chaotic good (pro-Phineas) or lawful evil (pro-Board), companion motivations are extremely shallow with equally shallow dialog, faction reputations mean nothing outside of vendor discounts, and skill builds are relegated moot due to the ease of the combat and the enemy AI.
You sound like a cheerful chap lol
 
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Captiosus

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You sound like a cheerful chap lol
Why? For telling it like it is? The game is not deserving of all the hype it's getting. It's decent enough and at least doesn't fall into the Games as a Service pitfall and deserves recognition for that. However, the only reason the game is getting this much hype and praise is because there's a dearth of similarly styled single player, narrative RPG games.

A lot of the praise tries to elevate Outer Worlds as equal to Fallout New Vegas. Not even close. The writing, choices, consequences, factions, and companion lines don't hold a candle to New Vegas, and Obsidian had far less time to put that together. The game offers bare minimum challenge with streamlined, often completely dumbed down, RPG mechanics. Your gameplay choices rarely matter, as illustrated in the prior posts. Even the direct dialog choices often are just nothing but illusions that push you to one of two choices. The only thing I'd give TOW over New Vegas is the combat system, which would be near perfect had they not made it so easy with tinkering, imbalanced energy weapons, and overabundant ammo drops.
 
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xpresstuning

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Mar 16, 2019
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Vicar Max's quest line resolution has killed my remaining interest in the game. It's terribly written Woke garbage where the main path appears to be stripping Max of his sense of order, purpose, and understanding of the universe in order to embrace an empty chaos of pure nihilism, via an incoherent psychedelic drug trip where he "resolves" his mother and father issues and murders his own persona. The writers seemingly frame this as an unequivocal good thing.

Sophomoric intersectional Marxism seeps through at every turn with little nuance. Nearly every woman is a highly competent engineer-warrior or doctor-warrior or leader-warrior, and nearly every man is a complete buffoon.

I didn't bother resolving Pavarti's impossibly naive and plodding lesbian dating arc.

The Obsidian that wrote KotOR 2, Mask of the Betrayer, and New Vegas no longer exists. RIP.
I haven't completed Vicar's quest line, so i'll withhold judgement on that.

As for the rest, i was actually surprised that there weren't more discussions regarding the method in which the writers have depicted the individuals of interest in The Outer Worlds. I thought that it was obvious from the first few hours into the game, allthough i wanted to progress further in so i wouldn't mistake my initial impressions for something that may not be true for the overall entire playthrough. I haven't experienced a differentiation in the bias, and i can strongly agree that it's there. Why that is, i can probably make a guess. Does it bother me? No, honestly i don't give it much importance.

I was never expecting anything comparable to Black Isle/Troika/old-Obsidian because from Pillars of Eternity and onward it was very clear that whatever organizational structure they had that permitted the development of KotOR 2, Mask of the Betrayer and Fallout: New Vegas did not exist anymore.

Anyway, pertaining to The Outer Worlds and the overall writing quality; I wouldn't call it bad writing by any stretch of the imagination, because if we're going to make a spectrum and put "truly abysmal writing" at the far-end, and "genuinely brilliant writing" at the very-top, there are going to be many other categories in-between these two extremes. For example, and to pick something recent and relevant, the writing, quest design is far better than in Andromeda and Fallout 4. I'd place these two games at a category near the far-end. Remarkably bad writing would be one category below. I'd put both here. Badly written would be the third next near the far-end. I'd put Fallout 3 here - Actually, i'd put everything Bethesda have made in this category (besides Morrowind, but that's because i can't remember much of it, it's been more than a decade since i last played Morrowind).

The writing in The Outer Worlds isn't remarkably bad, or abysmal .. it's poorly written on more than one low point, and there are numerous low points. But i wouldn't call it overall poorly written, for example, i definitely liked the quest design and the writing in the quest surrounding the conflict between Reed and Adelaide. I really liked that. But it's also definitely not genuinely brilliant writing by any stretch of the imagination. And it's definitely not remarkably great writing either (that'd the the category below 'brilliant' in my personal spectrum that i mentioned).

With that said.. Eh, I'm currently going through "The Distress Signal" quest on Roseway. I haven't yet experienced something as good as Reed/Adelaide, to be perfectly honest. The writing is sterile, for now. But i am enjoying The Outer Worlds quite a lot. There are many, many side quests to play around with and i've found some very entertaining ways in which the quests are designed. Technically speaking, it's polished and fun to interact with, and play. I'll agree with what others have said about the exploration and the rewards that incentivize them - it's not good mostly. I wouldn't exaggerate how easy it as as some other people are currently doing, because as far as i can tell, the game wasn't designed for hardcore video gamers.

I still a long way from finishing it, so i'll refrain from saying anything else.
 
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KillCommunism

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Just wanted to say that you suck. You think disagreeing with some aspects of a game's politics gives you the right to pirate it? Fuck that.
Yes it does. Why wouldn't it? If I don't agree with the politics that a certain game is promoting, why would I give them my money? Giving them money is the same as supporting their politics. I can't do that, but if I still have some interest in the game, at least out of just curiosity, I may pirate it. But if the option to pirate were not available, I simply wouldn't bother ever playing the game, so nothing changes anyway. I know I have the self restraint to do so because I haven't been to a hollywood movie since Spiderman Homecoming, a few years ago, whereas I used to go every 2 weeks or so. So a game I was to pirate for political reasons is a game I'd never buy anyay, so where really is the harm being done?
 
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DarkestHour

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Yes it does. Why wouldn't it? If I don't agree with the politics that a certain game is promoting, why would I give them my money? Giving them money is the same as supporting their politics. I can't do that, but if I still have some interest in the game, at least out of just curiosity, I may pirate it. But if the option to pirate were not available, I simply wouldn't bother ever playing the game, so nothing changes anyway. I know I have the self restraint to do so because I haven't been to a hollywood movie since Spiderman Homecoming, a few years ago, whereas I used to go every 2 weeks or so. So a game I was to pirate for political reasons is a game I'd never buy anyay, so where really is the harm being done?
Do you understand how dumb your argument is?
 

KillCommunism

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Do you understand how dumb your argument is?
I understand that you disagree with what I said. Do you understand that I don't care that yiu disagree? Yiu won't change my mind so I'd just drop it if I were you guys. I simply said that I may pirate the game at some point. That won't change, no matter how many times you guys tell me what a vile person I am. We will just have to agree to disagree and please fuck right off. Thank you.
 

Zefah

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Jan 7, 2007
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Yes it does. Why wouldn't it? If I don't agree with the politics that a certain game is promoting, why would I give them my money? Giving them money is the same as supporting their politics. I can't do that, but if I still have some interest in the game, at least out of just curiosity, I may pirate it. But if the option to pirate were not available, I simply wouldn't bother ever playing the game, so nothing changes anyway. I know I have the self restraint to do so because I haven't been to a hollywood movie since Spiderman Homecoming, a few years ago, whereas I used to go every 2 weeks or so. So a game I was to pirate for political reasons is a game I'd never buy anyay, so where really is the harm being done?
Doubling down on sucking ass, OK.

If you're interested in something, then fucking pay for it. Otherwise you're just a worthless free-loader and parasite, which is ironic considering your user name is "KillCommunism."
 
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nowhat

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So I just completed a second, more thorough, playthrough. It's definitely doable within this time frame, the game (even if you want to be the delivery boy for everyone) isn't that long. Now that the honeymoon period is over (which lasted for quite a while, granted) I have to say... It's good. But it's not great.

The mechanical/UI issues will be covered by others I'm sure, so I'll just rant about the story/writing in general. The tone is definitely more Space Balls than Star Wars, and I'm completely fine with that. Some of my GOATs like old Lucasarts games or Star Control 2 revolve around very goofy stuff, it's all good. But here, it seems like the writers aren't really sure where the plot is going. On the other hand, the plot can be silly. On the other, very serious. And the characters, especially your companions, follow the same route - not quite believable, not quite out there (or interesting) either. This is with the exception of SAM, probably the greatest companion ever. Always eager to help and cheerful, also hands out cleaning tips - what's there not to like?

But with games like this, there's always the question of choice, or rather, the illusion of choice. It's impossible to make a game where everything you do affects everything (at least in a game like this), so as long as some kind of suspension of disbelief exists I'm good. Here though, the most you'll be doing is cutting off some fetch quests with certain factions/NPCs by being a dick to them, or
altering the ending slides ever so slightly
- the story always pushes you to a certain direction, with certain progress-killing milestones requiring you to grind it out for a while. Which certainly is a disappointment.

What has been really surprising is that there's actually very little "incidental lore". You'll come across abandoned buildings and decayed corpses for sure. When the plot so requires, there will be terminals to read or items to examine. But in general, there's nothing there apart from picking up the same items over and over. I'm not saying good writing is easy, it most certainly isn't. But in terms of AAA game production, cutscenes and voiceovers cost a ton. Text is text, so it's much cheaper to produce. That there's really so little of it is kind of baffling.
 
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Isa

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There are some valid complaints to be had with the companions and their quests. I was enjoying Parvati at first but her sudden reaction to the Groundbreaker lady was absurdly quick, she was thrilled to finally be on a spaceship and then has some homing missile (non-physical, WTFH) hots for said genius. Maybe I just grew up around more... honest lesbians but my Aunt, soon to be retired from the military, has bumped more bagels than a porn star. Same thing with two co-workers of mine, also military.

I guess my issue with the companions, and many other quests in general is that there is no relation to the passing of time. Very video-gamey but at the same time it still feels too abrupt. I also wish we had more control over those quest-lines as well.
Not everybody is ok with same-sex relationships in a future colony (granted donors would help) and it comes off as our narrative is the only correct path. That whole bit felt awkward for me and I have never felt that way about a game before. I'd also like to add that Felix to me should only have been a crew member and not party, he also was way to similar to Poe Dameron from the new Star wars films, another insecure weasel male. And Vicar Max's twist just seems so absurdly out of character to me. He was a favorite of mine too.

I do wish the effects of meds and food also lasted far longer, whereas my characters debuffs apply too quickly. About 26hrs in and still enjoying myself though for the most part.
 

Helios

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Just finished the game and I'll say I enjoyed it. The story is good but it doesn't ever reach anywhere close to kotor2 levels. The gameplay is fine for what it is but I do wish they'd put a bit more effort into some of the side stuff. The perks feel very uninteresting, even more so for the companions. I also shouldn't have played it on normal, the difficulty is a joke. Though I can't really say I'd be excited to minmax my character in a game where the tinkering exists. Just seems like a boring way to do loot/progression.
I've only encountered a few minor bugs, nothing game-breaking.
I really didn't like the ending. Felt very flat and I hate sequel-baits. I'll also agree with everyone else and say that Vicar's character change feels really weird. The change in itself isn't that bad, it's the way they introduce it. The Vicar was already doubting himself and being very frustrated about it, I feel like there was a better way of doing the character twist instead of DUDE WEED LMAO
I'm also very concerned about the game's replayability.
 
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Dane

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Both (to a somewhat extreme degree)

Have no idea where the majoritys gonna settle after a year (also depends on support), but theres gonna be lots of discussion and divisive opinions even in the future when everthings calmed down. I don't think this is going to be clear cut at all. In public perception this game is going to be an absolute rollercoaster.
Maybe a Deadly Premonition case? Althrough most of the divisive reception came from critics.

Outer Worlds is a weird case, even the most harsh of critics of RPGs and in general game a positive score. Maybe people who didn't have much of Fallout NV expectations are the ones who liked it.
 
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semiconscious

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The game offers an illusioWhen the honeymoon period wears off I expect some will adjust their view of the game. The game offers an illusion of "play your way" but rarely delivers on it. Your character choices always come down to whether you're going to be chaotic good (pro-Phineas) or lawful evil (pro-Board), companion motivations are extremely shallow with equally shallow dialog, faction reputations mean nothing outside of vendor discounts, and skill builds are relegated moot due to the ease of the combat and the enemy AI...
agreed. i'm enjoying the game myself, but it quickly became apparent to me that this game's actually much more of a parody of choice-based rpgs than anything else...
 

DarkestHour

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I understand that you disagree with what I said. Do you understand that I don't care that yiu disagree? Yiu won't change my mind so I'd just drop it if I were you guys. I simply said that I may pirate the game at some point. That won't change, no matter how many times you guys tell me what a vile person I am. We will just have to agree to disagree and please fuck right off. Thank you.
You're not vile, you just appear to be incredibly stupid. You won't pay for a game because you disagree with its politics but you will still pirate it and play it.

Think about what you are saying.
 
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Fatalmephisto29

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So just finished my 7th playthrough. 3 main ones to get all achievements and 4 for speed ones. I finally was able to get my run down to 31 mins and 57 seconds not counting the load screens, 51 mins with load screens. Damn the xbox one load times are 45 to 47 sec each. Damn playing on the xbox one S. I love this game so much.
 
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nowhat

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I definitely appreciate that, as someone with some degree of red/green colorblindness.
I think it's wonderful that these kinds of accessibility issues are addressed nowadays. I borrowed my PS Classic (it was 20€ on sale so why not) to a friend and tried to show him the light that is Super Puzzle Fighter 2 Turbo. We did a couple of rounds and he absolutely sucked. I was about to diss him really hard when I realized he actually couldn't see the difference between the green and red blocks.
 
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Mistershine.

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When do you unlock tinkering? I'm level 9 and have just been to the radio tower on the planet after groundbreaker.
 

ChinMitten

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I started playing this on Xbox instead of PC and kind of regret it. Really surprised this doesn't have cross-save at least between those two platforms.
 

Dane

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This game has taught me that length is important to me when it comes to RPGS. I give it a 6.5/10
I've been noticing that some people are finishing in 10-15 hours and others in 30+, I suppose the former is for the main quest only.

Well honestly, I'd rather have a game that manages to hold it even if its short, than games that are long but half of the progress is a drag.
 
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Darak

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I finished it after 15 hours, and the game didn't feel short to be honest. I skipped a few side quests and didn't explore a lot, so I probably missed quite a few others. The last level or so was horrible, including
an unskippable boss which puts you in a closet with him and then spams a lot of ads, not really fun when you are playing as a stealthy solo character
. Well, to be honest you can skip that, but you need to have maxed out some specific secondary skills which are not very useful otherwise. It's still something that makes no sense considering how the rest of the game flows IMO.

Choices and consequences are poorly handled and the only thing they seem to do is changing some bits of the end of game narration, which depending on your choices will be completely broken (such as stating some fact about one of the game's powers in a slide, and the complete opposite in the next one).

The game does many, many things poorly, but I still had enough fun playing it. I'd say it's more than the sum of its parts.
 
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Amory

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Been playing for a few hours now. Still just in the first world you end up in, Level 5 running around doing sidequests with Parvati.

It's good! It's good. So far I'm neither underwhelmed nor blown away. The graphics and colors (on PC anyway) are stunning, the shooting is fun, and most of the dialogue is well-written, if a little long-winded.

I understand this ultimately isn't a fallout game, and I appreciate the differences. But I'd be lying if I said I was as eager (at this early point anyway) to explore all the nooks and crannies of the world the way I'm motivated to do in fallout games. The surroundings seem kind of bland, for all their pretty colors.

I've barely gotten started though and I'm sure things will pick up.
 
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Captiosus

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I've barely gotten started though and I'm sure things will pick up.
Monarch is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of the game. It's where you'll spend the bulk of your time because it's got so much to discover and do, it's where you'll get deep into a lot of world building, and it's where you'll level quite a bit. In retrospect, one of my biggest disappointments with the game was how every other location in the game felt short and lacking compared to Monarch.

Monarch, Groundbreaker, and Edgewater feel like the areas that were given the most development time, respectively. The rest feel like afterthoughts. Without spoilers, I'll just say I really expected more out of Byzantium with the way the game's story and dialog hyped up the place.

Helios: Do you mean the planets of...
Olympus, Eridanos, Hephaestus, and Typhon? Because, if so, sadly the answer is no. They're just there for aestetics. IIRC, the text you get when you highlight Typhon on the map outright says something to the effect of being useless to Halcyon or some such.
 
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Helios

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Monarch is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of the game. It's where you'll spend the bulk of your time because it's got so much to discover and do, it's where you'll get deep into a lot of world building, and it's where you'll level quite a bit. In retrospect, one of my biggest disappointments with the game was how every other location in the game felt short and lacking compared to Monarch.

Monarch, Groundbreaker, and Edgewater feel like the areas that were given the most development time, respectively. The rest feel like afterthoughts. Without spoilers, I'll just say I really expected more out of Byzantium with the way the game's story and dialog hyped up the place.

Helios: Do you mean the planets of...
Olympus, Eridanos, Hephaestus, and Typhon? Because, if so, sadly the answer is no. They're just there for aestetics. IIRC, the text you get when you highlight Typhon on the map outright says something to the effect of being useless to Halcyon or some such.
Yeah, that's what I meant. It's unfortunate.
Also I felt the same way about Byzantium, granted there may have been more that I didn't explore. For example I definitely didn't do the quest where you have to gather all those costumes for the designer lady.
 

Chunk Loves Sloth

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Finished first playthrough around 34 hours played, on Hard

about 3 hours into my Supernova run and not sure if I can go through with it. I like the survival elements and perma-companion death but the lack of fast travel and restricted saves are a little too much. I’ll stick with it tho
 
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Helios

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Finished first playthrough around 34 hours played, on Hard

about 3 hours into my Supernova run and not sure if I can go through with it. I like the survival elements and perma-companion death but the lack of fast travel and restricted saves are a little too much. I’ll stick with it tho
What platform are you playing on? I heard to can mod those out on PC
 

Guynamedbilly

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I'm feeling like my enthusiasm has reached a standstill. I just left Groundbreaker and none of the sidequests or other things I can do right now is interesting at all. I don't know if I want to continue. The characters are almost completely forgettable so far. This is kind of depressing. It was my most anticipated game all year.
 
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Sygma

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330
I dont get the flurry of 9 and 10s for this game. Finished it in supernova in like 18 hours, it was boring as shit in the whole monarch section and I never died (my companions did a couple of times because I just wasn't managing them hah)

Something really weird was how insignificant actions felt. There's no good character development and the world barely reacts to you. Like PoE 2 at launch (which was EVEN messier jesus fucking christ, you could literally get every possible allignment on your character and nothing mattered lmao) but somehow bland.

And yeah I didn't notice how pretty much all the men in the story outside of Phileas are basically incompetent, huh
 
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Zeypher

Neo Member
Sep 21, 2019
9
11
115
I feel that Obsidian writing department needs Chris Avellone back. Hell Chris L'Etoile leaving after doing the initial part of the writing is also noticeable. From groundbreaker onward the writing seemed to have lost its greyness and went full on binary. It is all the more noticeable when its a debate between ideologies, philosophies and religion. They seem to lack the ability to write moral ambiguity. The hamfisted resolution of Max's questline, the stupidly evil Board as its presented in the game from Ground Breaker onwards etc all serve to prove this point.