Support NeoGAF

[Deleted member 126221]

If the article was just about a few executives on top earning way too much money, why say in your title that "developers make too much"? That's very sensationalist and dishonest.

EDIT: And wow at using facebook "likes" to prove your article is quality. I can't believe it. All those cat memes I see in my facebook feeds must be quality journalistic work, then!

 

[Xander756]

You started off talking about guys on $80,000 a year. Now you've changed to Cliffy B and his $15 million. Where are you moving the goalposts to next? I hear Bobby Kotick is worth a fair bit.

I never said anything about people making $80,000 a year. I believe you should look up the difference between average salary and median.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Are they trying to kill off the second hand market of their respective fields? Are they trying to charge for Google instead of letting users search for free? No?

Then your analogy is fallacious. Cliffy B isn't *just* worth $15 million. He's worth $15 million AND blaming gamers for the rising production costs, and saying the second hand market needs to be destroyed.

See the problem now?

Yes, I do see the problem. The problem, apparently, is that you're not allowed to make a lot of money if Xander756 doesn't like your personality.

 

[Xander756]

If the article was just about a few executives on top earning way too much money, why say in your title that "developers make too much"? That's very sensationalist and dishonest.

What would you have the article title be? Should it have been....

"One of the many problems with the gaming industry is that some developers and publishers at the very top make too much money"

Yeah, try fitting that on the front page.

 

[abrack08]

What would you have the article title be? Should it have been....

"One of the many problems with the gaming industry is that some developers and publishers at the very top make too much money"

Yeah, try fitting that on the front page.

It's your job to come up with a title that matches the content of the article. It's also your job to write an article that actually says what you were trying to say. You failed at both.

 

[Qassim]

I felt embarrassed reading this, in the same way you can feel embarrassed for someone else when they've made themselves look silly.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I'd say the videogame industry is quite a classic freemarket capatalist industry, there is little meldling by governments and it grew out of nothing due to advancement in computer technology.

It boils down to supply and demand and renumeration reflects that.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Because it makes no sense that he would try to explain average is skewed by people at the top when the article was about how average is skewed by people at the top. Here's a quote the follow-up:

"Average salary is skewed by the guys at the top who make ridiculous amounts of money. That’s was the entire point of the article. These guys are making too much. Their salaries needlessly add millions of dollars to game development and administration costs. Then these same people try to blame gamers for video games no longer being profitable. According to celebritynetworth.com, Cliff Bleszinski is worth $15 million. And yet he has the gall to write tweets that games are becoming no longer profitable because gamers are buying used games? Maybe he should look in the mirror before pointing the finger at us. Sean Malstrom likens him to “a guy in a top hat in a Rolls Royce telling the people in soup lines that he needs more money.” If you are a struggling developer that makes around or below the average salary quoted in my article, the article wasn’t about you."

Comprehension problems all around with you I see. Funny how you're attacking people for having comprehension problems.

Let me lay it out as simple as I can since other people get it but you don't.

1) Average salary tends to skew a higher figure than median salary. Average > Median

2) Median salary figure from a lot of known companies is higher than your Average salary figure quoted for a game developer in your article. Median > Average Game Developer

3) Therefore, Average > Median > Average Game Developer

4) Not that a fourth step should be needed by now, but your Average Game Developer salary is less than comparable in other industries.

 

[Xander756]

It's your job to come up with a title that matches the content of the article. It's also your job to write an article that actually says what you were trying to say. You failed at both.

Well as I already mentioned, it's not my job as a gaming journalist to teach the reader basic mathematical terminology. If you don't know the difference between average salary and median salary, and believe that the term "average salary" means the average developer makes that, then it's not my fault - it's yours (or rather your math teachers fault for failing).

 

[meijiko]

I never said anything about people making $80,000 a year. I believe you should look up the difference between average salary and median.

According to Game Developer magazine, the average salary for U.S. developers in 2011 was $81,192 a year. It's probably gone up since then due to inflation. Compare that to the current average salary of a police officer which is $50,745 a year (www.salary.com) or a teacher which can be as low as $39,850 a year depending on the state (www.teacherportal.com). Being a game developer is apparently an even better paying job than working at the CIA which according to www.simplyhired.com comes with an average salary of $70,000 a year.

In addition to a high salary, the majority of game developers also receive a myriad of fringe benefits including stock options, annual bonuses, project bonuses, royalties for games they have worked on, medical benefits, dental coverage, and even pension plans. Those who received financial benefits made an average of $17,689 above and beyond their salary (source). In other words, the average yearly earnings of a video game developer is about six figures.

Why are developers making so much money? Their job isn't life threatening like a police officer's is and it's not important to the future of the nation like a teacher's job is. It might be tedious or even grueling at times and require long hours and lots of commitment, but working in the video game industry is generally fun. People should be working in the gaming industry because they want to create awesome games. Not because they want to become rich. When did the gaming industry become so corporate?

You totally did.

 

[LightofRohan]

Ahahaha, fuck this scum. Developers are getting paid TOO little. There are some companies that pay pretty well, but on average you are not getting into this industry to make money.

And it is not just about putting in horrible hours, but also being an artist and a creative thinker/problem solver. Doing that 5-7 days a week is exhausting...

 

[samman6]

I think that is a lot of money for a game developer, USA devs better realize they can't hope for that kind of cash for long the talent pool of software devs is growing rapidly across the globe and people in those other countries will do those jobs for half that. I am surprised more publishers aren't shipping their games overseas.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

It boils down to supply and demand and renumeration reflects that.

And compensation for being overworked, at least in this industry.

Also for terrible job security.

 

[Xander756]

Comprehension problems all around with you I see. Funny how you're attacking people for having comprehension problems.

Let me lay it out as simple as I can since other people get it but you don't.

1) Average salary tends to skew a higher figure than median salary. Average > Median

2) Median salary figure from a lot of known companies is higher than your Average salary figure quoted for a game developer in your article. Median > Average Game Developer

3) Therefore, Average > Median > Average Game Developer

4) Not that a fourth step should be needed by now, but your Average Game Developer salary is less than comparable in other industries.

All you're doing at this point is parroting what I wrote in my article from yesterday: http://realgamernewz.com/14053/deve...lary-article-shows-the-schism-in-the-industry

 

[Deleted member 126221]

What would you have the article title be? Should it have been....

"One of the many problems with the gaming industry is that some developers and publishers at the very top make too much money"

Yeah, try fitting that on the front page.

"Is the game industry top brass earning too much?"

Hey, maybe I should become a game journalist!

 

[Xander756]

Ahahaha, fuck this scum. Developers are getting paid TOO little. There are some companies that pay pretty well, but on average you are not getting into this industry to make money.

And it is not just about putting in horrible hours, but also being an artist and a creative thinker/problem solver. Doing that 5-7 days a week is exhausting...

Cliffy B is being paid too little? What on earth...?

 

[abrack08]

Well as I already mentioned, it's not my job as a gaming journalist to teach the reader basic mathematical terminology. If you don't know the difference between average salary and median salary, and believe that the term "average salary" means the average developer makes that, then it's not my fault - it's yours (or rather your math teachers fault for failing).

What the shit, dude? I haven't seen one person here not understand the difference. Who are you lecturing about math? Why?

 

[cpp_is_king]

I think that is a lot of money for a game developer, USA devs better realize they can't hope for that kind of cash for long the talent pool of software devs is growing rapidly across the globe and people in those other countries will do those jobs for half that. I am surprised more publishers aren't shipping their games overseas.

Everyone who tries regrets it because the quality is an unshippable mess.

Cliffy B is being paid too little? What on earth...?

Why do you keep talking about one guy out of a pool of tens of thousands? you really do like to focus on the minutia, lol. The guy said "DEVELOPERS" make too little. He didn't say Cliffy B. It sounds to me like you don't give a shit about anyone in this entire industry except Cliffy B. Kinda sounds like the makings of a stalker, frankly.

 

[Xander756]

What the shit, dude? I haven't seen one person here not understand the difference. Who are you lecturing about math? Why? That's not the problem with your article. It's that you got called out on it, and now you're trying to say you were talking about specific cases when the article you wrote is actually incredibly general.

People are talking about what the average developer earns. That means they do not understand what the term average salary means. Average salary is not what the average developer earns. It is skewed by people at the top so if you keep mentioning the "average developer" it means you don't understand that.

 

[LightofRohan]

Cliffy B is being paid too little? What on earth...?

Oh man, you're a real person?! Well at least I know you are just trolling and not seriously this ignorant. Good show!

 

[Xander756]

Why do you keep talking about one guy out of a pool of tens of thousands? you really do like to focus on the minutia, lol. The guy said "DEVELOPERS" make too little. He didn't say Cliffy B. It sounds to me like you don't give a shit about anyone in this entire industry except Cliffy B. Kinda sounds like the makings of a stalker, frankly.

Um because he and people like him are the exact people the article was talking about? Why would you say you disagree with an article targeting people like Cliffy by talking about people who aren't like him? It makes no sense.

It would be as if I wrote an article about a congressman and then you start talking about your local mayor not making enough. That has nothing to do with what I wrote at all.

And then you are here saying if I keep talking about that congressman and other congressmen like him, I'm a "stalker"? That is quite interesting.

Cliffy, is that you?

 

[Marty Chinn]

What would you have the article title be? Should it have been....

"One of the many problems with the gaming industry is that some developers and publishers at the very top make too much money"

Yeah, try fitting that on the front page.

How about "High salaries for game executives widens the gap between developers and pass the cost on to you"

That's just half ass thinking for 10 seconds. I could come up with something better given a little more thought into it.

All you're doing at this point is parroting what I wrote in my article from yesterday: http://realgamernewz.com/14053/deve...lary-article-shows-the-schism-in-the-industry

No, what I'm doing is showing how flawed your original article was to start comparing salaries of teachers and police when you factor in that game developers make less in a comparable field and that software engineers at a ton of companies make significantly more. To make the bold claim that game developers are paid too much but then admit they make less than going anywhere else is an oxymoron.

You also keep harping on that $70,000 car without factoring in hundreds of factors that could leave him to have that car. Yet you keep harping on it when it could be explained in so many ways that aren't attributed to him making a ton of money at his job. As someone else said, how many people drive those types of cars and what does the average developer drive?

 

[abrack08]

People are talking about what the average developer earns. That means they do not understand what the term average salary means. Average salary is not what the average developer earns. It is skewed by people at the top so if you keep mentioning the "average developer" it means you don't understand that.

Can you show me one example of a post where a person obviously doesn't understand this? Is there really one person in this thread who doesn't know that an average can be skewed by really high or low numbers?

 

[MJLord]

Cliffy B is being paid too little? What on earth...?

You are ridiculous.

If I can look to earn on average 100k then great. But you know this won't be the case for 99% of developers going into the industry.

 

[APF]

Cliffy's worth is a separate number from his salary.

 

[LightofRohan]

Um because he and people like him are the exact people the article was talking about? Why would you say you disagree with an article targeting people like Cliffy by talking about people who aren't like him? It makes no sense.

It would be as if I wrote an article about a congressman and then you start talking about your local mayor not making enough. That has nothing to do with what I wrote at all.

And then you are here saying if I keep talking about that congressman and other congressmen like him, I'm a "stalker"? That is quite interesting.

Cliffy, is that you?

No... it would be like if you made an article about, "People in politics make WAY TOO MUCH MONEY!" and then getting confused when people call out your bullshit then rebuttal, "I was talking about the President of the United States!".

 

[Xander756]

Can you show me one example of a post where a person obviously doesn't understand this? Is there really one person in this thread who doesn't know that an average can be skewed by really high or low numbers?

Yes just look in the post right above yours. Marty Chinn says the phrase "average developer."

Just a few posts ago I explained people talking about the average developer don't understand the difference between average salary and median salary. Then he began talking about the average developer again. What's that tell ya?

 

[diffusionx]

Cliffy B is being paid too little? What on earth...?

Cliffy B obviously wasn't paid a salary, or at least did not derive most of his wealth from it. He was a principal of the company. He had a stake in their profits. This is not something that is common to most developers.

Cliff got lucky. He got in on a talented studio in the ground floor and used his talents to make some great games that people liked. I fail to see why a man in that situation shouldn't be rich. Somebody made that money.

Most developers are working for a paycheck.

This is fundamental stuff dude. Think about it before you say anything.

 

[chickdigger802]

game devs get paid more than average compare to other programming jobs, but don't they also on average work way more than your typical 40hrs/week?

 

[Deleted member 126221]

If nobody understand what you truly meant in your article and you constantly have to explain yourself, would that mean that, MAYBE, the article was poorly written? Just a thought.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Ah, needed a good laugh today

 

[meijiko]

Um because he and people like him are the exact people the article was talking about? Why would you say you disagree with an article targeting people like Cliffy by talking about people who aren't like him? It makes no sense.

It would be as if I wrote an article about a congressman and then you start talking about your local mayor not making enough. That has nothing to do with what I wrote at all.

And then you are here saying if I keep talking about that congressman and other congressmen like him, I'm a "stalker"? That is quite interesting.

Cliffy, is that you?

Please, name some developers like Cliffy B that are apparently ruining the game industry.

 

[Xander756]

If nobody understand what you truly meant in your article and you constantly have to explain yourself, would that mean that, MAYBE, the article was poorly written? Just a thought.

As I mentioned, the majority liked the article. It's just a very vocal minority that didn't. If 90 out of 100 people who read it liked and agreed with it, then it's not a problem with the writing or me. It's a problem with the 10 who don't.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Um because he and people like him are the exact people the article was talking about? Why would you say you disagree with an article targeting people like Cliffy by talking about people who aren't like him? It makes no sense.

It would be as if I wrote an article about a congressman and then you start talking about your local mayor not making enough. That has nothing to do with what I wrote at all.

And then you are here saying if I keep talking about that congressman and other congressmen like him, I'm a "stalker"? That is quite interesting.

Cliffy, is that you?

The article targets "game developers". If the article targets "him or people like him" then why are you using statistics that describe "people nothing like him at all"? Oh I know, it's because you're disingenuous, malicious, and a sensationalist journalist.

Is the "the average salary for U.S. developers in 2011" giving an accurate portrayal of "Cliffy B or people like Cliffy B"?

No, and that is why people take issue with your article. Your statistics and "sources" refer to the average Joe working in the industry, making a less-than-market-rate salary, yet your issue is the handful of people at the top, which you can probably count on 1 hand.

So you've written an entire article chastizing the entire industry because of 1 person. That is why you fail.

That is why you fail.

 

[Xander756]

Please, name some developers like Cliffy B that are apparently ruining the game industry.

I specifically went out of my way not to name the developer the article was specifically about, due to privacy reasons. I can tell you though he's not a company executive and has been working at this specific studio for about two years.

 

[abrack08]

Yes just look in the post right above yours. Marty Chinn says the phrase "average developer."

Just a few posts ago I explained people talking about the average developer don't understand the difference between average salary and median salary. Then he began talking about the average developer again. What's that tell ya?

Saying the phrase "average developer" is not an indicator of not knowing what an average actually is. My God. HE was talking about the difference between median and average before you! Are you this dense, really?

 

[Xander756]

The article targets "game developers". If the article targets "him or people like him" then why are you using statistics that describe "people nothing like him at all"? Oh I know, it's because you're disingenuous, malicious, and a sensationalist journalist.

Is the "the average salary for U.S. developers in 2011" giving an accurate portrayal of "Cliffy B or people like Cliffy B"?

No, and that is why people take issue with your article. Your statistics and "sources" refer to the average Joe working in the industry, making a less-than-market-rate salary, yet your issue is the handful of people at the top, which you can probably count on 1 hand.

So you've written an entire article chastizing the entire industry because of 1 person. That is why you fail.

That is why you fail.

I'm not using statistics that do that, though. As mentioned repeatedly, average salary is not indicative of what an average developer makes. That would be more accurately represented by median salary. This article does not talk about median salary therefore it is not talking about the average developer.

You saying my statistics refer to the average joe simply because it says the term "average salary" shows me you do not understand the difference between average salary and median salary. This cannot be blamed on me. I'm not your math teacher.

 

[cpp_is_king]

As I mentioned, the majority liked the article. It's just a very vocal minority that didn't. If 90 out of 100 people who read it liked and agreed with it, then it's not a problem with the writing or me. It's a problem with the 10 who don't.

A majority, based on some facebook likes? Did you know that Facebook doesn't have an "unlike" button? It's almost comical how terrible you are at statistics.

You saying my statistics refer to the average joe simply because it says the term "average salary" shows me you do not understand the difference between average salary and median salary. This cannot be blamed on me. I'm not your math teacher.

Full disclosure: I have an M.S. in Mathematics and have competed in (and scored very well in) various national and international mathematics competitions at the high school and collegiate level. You're not my math teacher, but I could very much be yours.

 

[Xander756]

Saying the phrase "average developer" is not an indicator of not knowing what an average actually is. My God. HE was talking about the difference between median and average before you! Are you this dense, really?

Actually I wrote an article about this yesterday so he wasn't talking about the difference between median and average before me. He is simply parroting what I wrote in the article yesterday and then claiming it proves me wrong, which clearly makes no sense.

Here's that article: http://realgamernewz.com/14053/deve...lary-article-shows-the-schism-in-the-industry

 

[meijiko]

As I mentioned, the majority liked the article. It's just a very vocal minority that didn't. If 90 out of 100 people who read it liked and agreed with it, then it's not a problem with the writing or me. It's a problem with the 10 who don't.

The worst thing a writer could ever do is ignore valid criticism "because most people liked it!" I may not be a journalist, but any artist who feels they're above criticism because they got a bunch of facebook likes is a fucking joke to me.

I specifically went out of my way not to name the developer the article was specifically about, due to privacy reasons. I can tell you though he's not a company executive and has been working at this specific studio for about two years.

I wanted to see how much actual research you've done on the subject, and two people does not cut it for backing up your claim that developers are getting paid too much.

 

[Xander756]

A majority, based on some facebook likes? Did you know that Facebook doesn't have an "unlike" button? It's almost comical how terrible you are at statistics.

There was a counter article put up that received about 1/9th the likes as mine did. It's also worth noting that my interview with HipHopGamer received a thumbs up to thumbs down ratio of 18:1 on YouTube.

 

[diffusionx]

I don't know. I just never witnessed Atari 2600 developers bragging about
sports cars or hanging out at "exclusive v.i.p" parties. I guess what I'm getting
at is that they stayed humble.

Atari 2600 developers were treated like shit. They were poorly paid and treated like disposable cogs. They couldn't even put their name in the credits. Hence the Adventure easter egg.

That's why Activision was formed, actually. Why shouldn't a guy who made a great game or has great skills get paid? But maybe you think it's better the old way, where people can't enjoy the fruits of their own success?

 

[Xander756]

The worst thing a writer could ever do is ignore valid criticism "because most people liked it!" I may not be a journalist, but any artist who feels they're above criticism because they got a bunch of facebook likes is a fucking joke to me.

This statement makes no sense. If I was ignoring criticism, would I be here explaining things or doing interviews and talking to people on Twitter? I am simply pointing out that he majority of people liked the article in order to quell the belief that this was a problem with the clarity of my writing. It wasn't. It's a problem with the reading comprehension of people who believe that an article that talks about someone driving a $70,000 sports car in the very first line was somehow about people making $30,000 a year.

 

[Watashiwa]

There was a counter article put up that received about 1/9th the likes as mine did. It's also worth noting that my interview with HipHopGamer received a thumbs up to thumbs down ratio of 18:1 on YouTube.

Are you actually trying to argue that social network "Likes" are an indication of quality? I will bet you that half the people who hit the like button didn't even watch the video but thought the premise was funny so voted based on that.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

This statement makes no sense. If I was ignoring criticism, would I be here explaining things or doing interviews and talking to people on Twitter? I am simply pointing out that he majority of people liked the article in order to quell the belief that this was a problem with the clarity of my writing. It wasn't. It's a problem with the reading comprehension of people who believe that an article that talks about someone driving a $70,000 sports car in the very first line was somehow about people making $30,000 a year.

I...wow.

 

[Xander756]

Are you actually trying to argue that social network "Likes" are an indication of quality? I will bet you that half the people who hit the like button didn't even watch the video but thought the premise was funny so voted based on that.

Hmm so Game Developre Magazine's numbers are useless and wrong.

Major salary aggregation sites such as indeed.com and salary.com have incorrect information.

And now the social media response statistics also prove nothing.

So in other words, anything that shows the article was correct or well received is wrong, regardless of where the statistics came from. That is an interesting conclusion.

 

[Marty Chinn]

This statement makes no sense. If I was ignoring criticism, would I be here explaining things or doing interviews and talking to people on Twitter? I am simply pointing out that he majority of people liked the article in order to quell the belief that this was a problem with the clarity of my writing. It wasn't. It's a problem with the reading comprehension of people who believe that an article that talks about someone driving a $70,000 sports car in the very first line was somehow about people making $30,000 a year.

You cannot use likes as a pure method of gauging if a majority of the people understood your article. For all you know they read it, and said, wow game developers make more than the police. That's unfair and then didn't truly understand the scope of the article and hit like because you drove home a point that was invalid to begin with. Just because they believed the bogus conclusion doesn't mean they understood the article. That's a false assumption.

I'll say it again, what I'm doing is showing how flawed your original article was to start comparing salaries of teachers and police when you factor in that game developers make less in a comparable field and that software engineers at a ton of companies make significantly more. To make the bold claim that game developers are paid too much but then admit they make less than going anywhere else is an oxymoron.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

As I mentioned, the majority liked the article. It's just a very vocal minority that didn't. If 90 out of 100 people who read it liked and agreed with it, then it's not a problem with the writing or me. It's a problem with the 10 who don't.

What the hell? I could write an article about how Obama (to keep your bad politic analogies) is a shape-shifting reptilian and get tons of Facebook likes, but that doesn't make it true.

 

[cpp_is_king]

This statement makes no sense. If I was ignoring criticism, would I be here explaining things or doing interviews and talking to people on Twitter? I am simply pointing out that he majority of people liked the article in order to quell the belief that this was a problem with the clarity of my writing. It wasn't. It's a problem with the reading comprehension of people who believe that an article that talks about someone driving a $70,000 sports car in the very first line was somehow about people making $30,000 a year.

It doesn't really matter who the first line of your article is about when the entire rest of your article is about a completely different group of people.

 

[meijiko]

This statement makes no sense. If I was ignoring criticism, would I be here explaining things or doing interviews and talking to people on Twitter? I am simply pointing out that he majority of people liked the article in order to quell the belief that this was a problem with the clarity of my writing. It wasn't. It's a problem with the reading comprehension of people who believe that an article that talks about someone driving a $70,000 sports car in the very first line was somehow about people making $30,000 a year.

Yes, you're ignoring the valid criticism. Your thesis talks about a developer with a $70,000 sports car. Then you go on to compare the $80,000 average salary of a game dev to other, completely unrelated jobs, and ask why game devs get paid so much. If you're ONLY talking about the high-end workers, don't fucking bring in the average game devs and act like it's supporting your argument.

A better article would be discussing the prominence of high-end developers and whether or not their salaries are actually detrimental to the industry, but that would probably require too much work and not get nearly enough facebook likes.