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The PS5 3D Audio Design & Headset Gamers

FrankWza

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That what I thought. I don't know why some people believe you have to have a specific headphone set made specifically for 3d audio.

I think the big selling point of the3d pulse from Sony is that it is completely wireless AND has the mic built in. Otherwise you need to add a mic to your headphones and make it a headset and there will be a wire either plugged into the USB port on the ps5 or the controller of the controller does the proc
Am I reading that some of you believe the Pulse 3d Headset has some kind of decoder built into it for the 3d audio? I was under the assumption that all the positioning was being done by processor in the PS5 and the signal being sent to the headphones by conventional method. Am I wrong?

It uses a dongle so it has tech specific to the dongle. That means that the ps5 isn’t capable of sending 3D audio without an adapter. So based on that, if the dualsense can process the 3d audio it has to have some kind of tech in it since the 3d pulse needs an adapter to connect and the dualsense does not. Unless the dongle is just for the wireless aspect and/or MIC.Then the 3d pulse and dualsense have the same tech built in to process 3d audio
 

Rayderism

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Honestly, I'm not too fussed about the Tempest 3D audio stuff on PS5. I only use headphones so as not to annoy my non-gamer bother while I play with a bunch of "video game noise" as he puts it. One problem I have with most headphones is that they block all sound around you (noise cancelling) in the real world, and I can't have that. As head of the household, I have to hear what's going on around me. Not to mention annoying the crap out of my brother when he tries to say something to me and I can't hear him.

An unadvertised feature my TV has is Bluetooth audio, so I use a pair of Sounblaster Jam BT headphones. They are on-ear (as opposed to over-ear) headphones and have decent enough sound while allowing me to hear stuff around me, plus they have fast stream technology to reduce audio lag to a negligible level. Somehow, I doubt Sony's Tempest audio tech is going to work properly through all that. And until I can find a better solution for headphones that let me hear what's going on around me outside of the game, those are what I will continue to use.
 
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Axonometri

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I think the big selling point of the3d pulse from Sony is that it is completely wireless AND has the mic built in. Otherwise you need to add a mic to your headphones and make it a headset and there will be a wire either plugged into the USB port on the ps5 or the controller of the controller does the proc


It uses a dongle so it has tech specific to the dongle. That means that the ps5 isn’t capable of sending 3D audio without an adapter. So based on that, if the dualsense can process the 3d audio it has to have some kind of tech in it since the 3d pulse needs an adapter to connect and the dualsense does not. Unless the dongle is just for the wireless aspect and/or MIC.Then the 3d pulse and dualsense have the same tech built in to process 3d audio
Ah.. I see o_O
 

FrankWza

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Honestly, I'm not too fussed about the Tempest 3D audio stuff on PS5. I only use headphones so as not to annoy my non-gamer bother while I play with a bunch of "video game noise" as he puts it. One problem I have with most headphones is that they block all sound around you (noise cancelling) in the real round, and I can't have that. As head of the household, I have to hear what's going on around me. Not to mention annoying the crap out of my brother when he tries to say something to me and I can't hear him.

An unadvertised feature my TV has is Bluetooth audio, so I use a pair of Sounblaster Jam BT headphones. They are on-ear (as opposed to over-ear) headphones and have decent enough sound while allowing me to hear stuff around me, plus they have fast stream technology to reduce audio lag to a negligible level. Somehow, I doubt Sony's Tempest audio tech is going to work properly through all that. And until I can find a better solution for headphones that let me hear what's going on around me outside of the game, those are what I will continue to use.

If sonys 3d audio isn’t better than the Bluetooth audio from a tv then they dropped the ball big time.Unless your tv outputs virtual surround over BT Sony’s will be much better. You can try open back over the ear. Pros are you can hear more of Whats happening in your home and the soundstage improves over closed back.Con is that the people around you will hear some noise leaking
 
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ihavezippers

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If your environment permits, get an open back headset over closed backs, the larger soundstage is going to make the 3d effect much more immersive. Also avoid all those "gamer" headsets, they're generally overpriced trash.

Can you provide an example headset with “open back” “over close backs”? Not sure what you mean by this
 
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Playstation Headsets fall apart at the slightest bump.

I've heard this several times from people but I've had my pulse headset (which people say is the worst) for 5-6 years or so and its been perfect (except I did have to replace the ear cushions). I think its partially an issue about where you are flexing the headset when you put it on.
 

FrankWza

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Can you provide an example headset with “open back” “over close backs”? Not sure what you mean by this
Sennheiser game one is open back. The sennheiser gsp 600 is closed. But these are both headsets. Headphones will open up many more options but you’ll need to figure out how to add a mic if you play online or want to chat while using the headphones
 
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AV

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Can you provide an example headset with “open back” “over close backs”? Not sure what you mean by this

Open back basically means, not a closed cup that traps the sound inside. They're better generally, but they're no good if you've got other noises inside the room, or you don't want to bother other people with noise from the headset.
 
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You're post is thoughtful, indeed. It's beyond me how it's processed, but it's been addressed by other friends here in neogaf who have their HRTF measured and musicians, like thurnishaleygw thurnishaleygw . Hope he can give us more insight.



You don't need Pulse 3D, you only need a good 2.0 channel stereo headset.
Well, let's break it down a bit:

3D audio is definitely meant to be experienced with headphones as a primary listening device. Mainly because, aside from adding a sense of height without the need for setups like Dolby Atmos, it sets the sounds within a certain series of parameters like the time delay when a sound is coming from the left side reaches the right side, therefore creating the sense of locality and space for that sound. That's when HRTF comes into place, it's the groundwork upon which these calculations and algorithms are set, further enhancing the sense of immersion.

It can be done on speakers too, but it is more complex, and the work to be done for the listening sweet spot to be as big as possible to be able to perceive that locality and presence is huge. If that sweet spot is a small one, you couldn't even move while playing, because that immersion would be lost. Doing this on a surround sound gives a little bit of an easier job than on TV speakers, from the point of view of mere options when placing sounds around the setup, but at the same time having more points of emission of sound means the crosstalk (hearing indistinctly what's supposed to come from one side on the other side) grows exponentially, and the actual precision of the 3D imaging won't be the same, not until transaural audio and crosstalk cancellation is more advanced and starts reaching the market. To summarize the concept behind that, there's the basic distinction between having a 2 channel sound source vs a 3D Audio one on headphones, which is quite easy to understand. On a stereo source, if we were to just emit sound from the left channel, you would only hear it on your left ear without any kind of spatial parameters affecting that sound, while on a 3D Audio environment, via what's calculated in relation to HRTF, the sound would positively reach your ear canals in a more realistic manner with the added calculations for time delay, resulting in a better sense of space. It would do so in different manners, depending on distance, intensity of the sound and so on, but in order to trick your brain into the feeling of being on a place, that transfer of sound must be addressed. It's the same on a surround system, but obviously it's more complex to do so in a way where it can work for any kind of setup, given that they won't know distance between the speakers, distance between speakers and listener and other variables.

Long story short, the easiest and most effective way to take advantage of 3D Audio, right now, is definitely a good set of headphones.

You wouldn't need any extra hardware basically because the output of the mix, even if it's 3D Audio, is a 2 channel output (when talking about headphones, obviously). The gist of it all are the HRTF-based calculations and doing a good usage of things like binaural panning. That's what gives you that sense of space, locality and immersion. But all that can be done while outputting a 2 channel mix. We don't really know much about the 3D Pulse headset, but I'm guessing the "special sauce" behind them is merely good sound staging, which is crucial to perceive sounds distinctly and in their own place in the mix.

Hope that was somewhat helpful, I try to not get overtly technical so it's understandable, but sometimes it can be difficult to convey it well on layman terms.
 
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Guess everyone is in a wait and see. Currently imaging is most important for positioning direction. Soundstage is iffy because often they are wide but not deep or deep but not wide or just small and in your head area. As long as the imaging is good then direction can be heard and most games direction can be enough to keep you alive.
 

FrankWza

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I already have a Dolby atmos setup with 2 height speakers. I just hope i don’t have to buy new hardware (receiver) to take advantage of this...
I would feel confident saying that you won’t. It all comes down t processing. Hopefully tempest comes through as well as an atmos mix does. That may be up to developers so Sony first party will probably have the advantage there
 
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Bartski

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You wouldn't need any extra hardware basically because the output of the mix, even if it's 3D Audio, is a 2 channel output (when talking about headphones, obviously). The gist of it all are the HRTF-based calculations and doing a good usage of things like binaural panning. That's what gives you that sense of space, locality and immersion. But all that can be done while outputting a 2 channel mix. We don't really know much about the 3D Pulse headset, but I'm guessing the "special sauce" behind them is merely good sound staging, which is crucial to perceive sounds distinctly and in their own place in the mix.

If I can think of a single property of the 3D PULSE that could possiblty be contributing to what goes on in the sales pitch - It would be if it combined top notch Dolby Atmos like 2 channel encoding on hardware level with some excellent super precise head tracking sound stage control, built in the headset.
None of that has been announced (yet?) if I'm not mistaken but that would actually make some sense.
It's an essential upgrade for VR audio and I bet it's gonna be a huge deal with PSVR2 but would it make that much of a difference for regular couch gaming?
I haven't had a chance woth play with any of those cool toys yet but I imagine psychoacoustically it could signifficantly support the sense of presence.
 

Axonometri

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The perspective listening position can easily be fixed to the players view camera or a point in 3d space that is appropriate. There is no need to decipher a position in 3d space from inside the headphones or from a vr headset. If you know the point in space from the players perspective view, all the objects of sound can be placed relative to that position in 3d space.
 
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If I can think of a single property of the 3D PULSE that could possiblty be contributing to what goes on in the sales pitch - It would be if it combined top notch Dolby Atmos like 2 channel encoding on hardware level with some excellent super precise head tracking sound stage control, built in the headset.
None of that has been announced (yet?) if I'm not mistaken but that would actually make some sense.
It's an essential upgrade for VR audio and I bet it's gonna be a huge deal with PSVR2 but would it make that much of a difference for regular couch gaming?
I haven't had a chance woth play with any of those cool toys yet but I imagine psychoacoustically it could signifficantly support the sense of presence.
Yeah, Waves Ambisonics is great because it's constantly tracking your head position, so it has information in real time to further enhance the experience. Although, as with Waves products, its essential use is recording and mixing related.

From a personal standpoint, 3D Audio is a game changer if done well. Sony is going to have to work on the HRTF profiles, making as many available as they can. Tailoring one for each customer is going to be pretty much impossible, because proper HRTF measurements require doing it on an anechoic chamber, with sound sources all around you, and the solution they have for their headphones via the app they use, in which they take a picture of your ears and via AI they try to tailor the 360º audio experience for you, is far from ideal. So, having many different HRTF profiles ready so as many people as possible can benefit from as close as to their own HRTF as they can get without a proper professional measurement, is going to be key. That takes time, takes a lot of HRTF measurements and a lot of statistical data, so they have a wide spectrum to work within.

Regarding 3D Pulse, what you mentioned would be neat, but at its price point, I can't see it happening. I mean, we don't really know at this point, but at 99$...Yeah, it's difficult.
 
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Bartski

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Yeah, Waves Ambisonics is great because it's constantly tracking your head position, so it has information in real time to further enhance the experience. Although, as with Waves products, its essential use is recording and mixing related.
That's what it's made for but it's just tech, I don't see a reason why it would't help perceiving a videogame sound stage decoupled from your head position as an audible advantage. Again just speculating because, going back to my previous posts
but at 99$...Yeah, it's difficult.
exactly, these cans are cheap. But the Waves Nx Head Tracker is pobably just an high def giro and Sony has been mass producting those for long enough.

The perspective listening position can easily be fixed to the players view camera or a point in 3d space that is appropriate. There is no need to decipher a position in 3d space from inside the headphones or from a vr headset. If you know the point in space from the players perspective view, all the objects of sound can be placed relative to that position in 3d space.

It comes down to additional set of control parameters, and the role they play in the system. I'm aware in VR everything relates to the head center position, but I'm sure having them doesn't hurt the math behind all the real time 3d convolution we're promissed. Time will tell
 
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I already have a Dolby atmos setup with 2 height speakers. I just hope i don’t have to buy new hardware (receiver) to take advantage of this...
I don't think it will - I think games will end up having a 3D audio stereo track, and also support an Atmos mix, but the two things arent really compatible because they do different things. Atmos is trying to simulate 3D sound by using X number of speakers, whereas the 3D audio is generating true 3D sound coming from an infinite number of "speakers." Even if you have like 10 speakers, that is still only 10 physical locations where sound can come from, which isn't really that precise.

You could push the 3D audio through those speakers but 1) you would need to have the exact location of every speaker relative to your sitting position mapped out pretty much exactly, 2) you can't move from your sitting position, and 3) it would be computationally way too much I would think. Every 2 speakers would probably double the level of computational requirements, which I just don't think they designed the Tempest engine to do.

That said, Sony might offer the ability to down sample the 3D audio to however many speakers you have, but I don't think they have said anything about that.
 

cryogenic7

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I don't think people get it...

The update will allow your A50 to run on PS5's OS but the audio design will be reduced to stereo. There isn't a headset yet that will harness the PS5's audio to it's fullest.

People are in for a shock when they realize this. There was a recent thread on reddit but I don't have an account and can't find it in my history. Whatever headset you have, the best audio @ launch is going to be this.

I haven't seen anything that indicates the 3d audio will not work on any headset. Please see if you can find a link?
 

FrankWza

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I haven't seen anything that indicates the 3d audio will not work on any headset. Please see if you can find a link?
He was confusing it being output directly to headphones probably. Astro uses a separate amp that does the processing. It should pass through tempest, but even if it doesn’t Astro still has surround sound when you check the right audio options in the OS settings. It won’t downsample it. The only hurdle will be mic compatibility. I think that’s why the optical adapter will handle sound and you’ll need to go usb for mic on Astro’s or anything with a dedicated amp.
 

Umbral

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People really need to stop drinking the PR of this. 3D audio is not a new invention in any capacity and Sony has yet to say a single reason why their implementation will be superior other than buzz words.
Somebody didn’t watch The Road to PS5.
 

Nikana

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I don't think it will - I think games will end up having a 3D audio stereo track, and also support an Atmos mix, but the two things arent really compatible because they do different things. Atmos is trying to simulate 3D sound by using X number of speakers, whereas the 3D audio is generating true 3D sound coming from an infinite number of "speakers." Even if you have like 10 speakers, that is still only 10 physical locations where sound can come from, which isn't really that precise.

You could push the 3D audio through those speakers but 1) you would need to have the exact location of every speaker relative to your sitting position mapped out pretty much exactly, 2) you can't move from your sitting position, and 3) it would be computationally way too much I would think. Every 2 speakers would probably double the level of computational requirements, which I just don't think they designed the Tempest engine to do.

That said, Sony might offer the ability to down sample the 3D audio to however many speakers you have, but I don't think they have said anything about that.

Cerny said they went with tempest over Atmos and doesnt have a atmos license so that will not happen. Tempest uses HRTF and will have a least 5 profiles at launch.
 

Audiophile

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If it's proper HRTF-based audio as implied, it should just work with any stereo headset/headphones/earphones (with all processing and extra fluff turned off, none of that virtual surround crap or the other faked 3D audio stuff). It should be baked into a 2.0 stereo stream; proper 3D Audio + HRTF doesn't need anymore than two channels, some sort of stereo headphones and two ears....and no proprietary decoding/virtualisation hardware in the listening device.
 
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Cerny said they went with tempest over Atmos and doesnt have a atmos license so that will not happen. Tempest uses HRTF and will have a least 5 profiles at launch.
But it has to push something to a receiver. Maybe they plan on doing all surround sound work in the engine and just transmit raw sound streams to anything you hook it up to. There is no way they have the computational power for HRTF in these surround setups, but generating normal surround outputs should be more than doable, and could probably support quite a few speakers. Would be helpful if they actually explained this stuff.
 

Axonometri

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Yeah higher end headphones will work better most likely and obviously as far as typical reproduction... It seems like the confusion is, does the Pulse 3d have some tech inside it that makes it work with tempest while a normal set won't.
I have been under the thought since the road to PS5 that all their custom 3d audio is done inside the console and sent to the headphones.
 
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Nikana

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But it has to push something to a receiver. Maybe they plan on doing all surround sound work in the engine and just transmit raw sound streams to anything you hook it up to. There is no way they have the computational power for HRTF in these surround setups, but generating normal surround outputs should be more than doable, and could probably support quite a few speakers. Would be helpful if they actually explained this stuff.

I would be surprised if its anything but that. It will process everything it needs to and simply output the "stereo" stream.
 
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Axonometri

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I would be surprised if its anything but that. It will process everything it needs to and simply output the "stereo" stream.
A stereo stream that tricks your ears into hearing positional audio objects with a perceived 3d space.
 
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I would be surprised if its anything but that. It will process everything it needs to and simply output the "stereo" stream.
Oh it is definitely that for headphones, but I am talking if you have a 5.1 system or something. Atmos basically just takes a 3D soundstage and maps it to your speaker setup, so there is no reason Sony couldn't do the exact same thing if they are capable of doing it with HRTF for stereo, but the question is how does that get to your speakers. I'm guessing by just sending all of the raw output sound streams for each channel directly to the receiver, but again, who knows.
 

Nikana

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A stereo stream that tricks your ears into hearing positional audio objects with a perceived 3d space.

Correct. At this point I am not seeing anything special about it other than they are aiming to have a LOT of different profiles. WIndows sonic already uses HRTF as do other versions of 3D audio. I am waiting to see what sony take on it is in the nitty gritty fashion.
 
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Nikana

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Oh it is definitely that for headphones, but I am talking if you have a 5.1 system or something. Atmos basically just takes a 3D soundstage and maps it to your speaker setup, so there is no reason Sony couldn't do the exact same thing if they are capable of doing it with HRTF for stereo, but the question is how does that get to your speakers. I'm guessing by just sending all of the raw output sound streams for each channel directly to the receiver, but again, who knows.

I would imagine its simply algorithms for anything above stereo. They aren't committed to support anything but headphones I believe for launch last I checked. But I could be remembering that wrong.
 

CamHostage

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This is literally music to my ears. I thought the tech needed a new upgrade in terms of headphones. But if the tech/engine is built in at a hardware level I'm good to go.

Unfortunately, I think "3D Audio" has been oversold a bit. Not that it's not going to be an outstanding and transformative experience on next-gen consoles, as I do believe having proper acoustic will be like the physical rendering techniques being employed that just make things work more like reality and less like game development trickery. But we've gotten in our heads that there's going to be something to this Tempest Audio that goes beyond what we can imagine and somehow puts a cave of sound all around our heads through even our basic TV speakers, and the more I'm reading about it, the more the reality of it has settled in. Sony is doing some "head-related transfer function (HRTF)" calculation, meaning if it knows your sound system setup and where you are in the sweet spot (or in headphones), it can phase the audio for you to some degree for dimensionality effects, but for the most part you're just getting really good sound with really good acoustical simulation and hopefully a good set of options for calibrating your room to get the best of your sound system. That's pretty much it, as I understand it, and I'm interested to know if there's more to it, but it's finally making sense what this 3D Audio is. "Really good", but not "magical".

And also, Xbox is doing a lot of this same 3D audio and even some HRTF features. We'll see which does it best, but so far the difference is mostly that Sony came up with a really compelling name for it: "Tempest Audio" just makes me want to upgrade my shitty sound system to hear it!

I do kind of wish the Pulse 3D headset had an accelerometer in it to sense body motion. If the acoustic simulation could be modified in the game when you turn your head, that would be a cool and immersive effect. (Granted, you probably wouldn't use it often since we usually don't look away from our TVs; this is more something that really matters in VR, and PSVR already calculates sound relation via the headset's motion detectors. Still, if you were playing RE8 and flinched at something terrifying because I'm... I mean, a hypothetical you is a wuss at horror, it'd be great to keep the illusion going by having the thing eating your brain still positioned over where the TV is.)
 
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cudiye

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Pre-ordered the pulse 3d headset along with the ps5. Can never go wrong with that. After all, sony is well known for their audio tech
 
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CamHostage

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Now we just need to find out if the PS5 has an optic audio port.

I believe the official specs have confirmed no optical audio port.


However, you can get yourself a USB amp, that should work since PlayStation for the most part supports USB audio protocols (PS4 does it already.) It's probably time to look into a new one if you're an amp-user since Optical is on its way out (RIP) and increasingly more devices are turning to USB sound-out. A USB-C amp would work with your phone, your PlayStation, your Switch, etc.

Am I reading that some of you believe the Pulse 3d Headset has some kind of decoder built into it for the 3d audio? I was under the assumption that all the positioning was being done by processor in the PS5 and the signal being sent to the headphones by conventional method. Am I wrong?
It uses a dongle so it has tech specific to the dongle. That means that the ps5 isn’t capable of sending 3D audio without an adapter. So based on that, if the dualsense can process the 3d audio it has to have some kind of tech in it since the 3d pulse needs an adapter to connect and the dualsense does not. Unless the dongle is just for the wireless aspect and/or MIC.Then the 3d pulse and dualsense have the same tech built in to process 3d audio

I don't think the dongle does anything but stream the audio out on a transport format that's better than Bluetooth? PS4 headsets had a dongle. PS3 headsets had a dongle. The 3D Pulse dongle works on a PC. So I'm pretty sure it's not a special dongle.

The only "dongle" that did complex processing was the PlayStation VR breakout box, which had some extra processing in it for calculating a surround soundfield in relation to your headset's orientation. Cerny talked about the VR's processing being kind of a forerunner to what Tempest Audio does.

There's not a lot of info about 3D Pulse "specs" to go off of, but there's nothing that says it has any dedicated hardware for utilizing 3D audio, just that it's "specifically tuned to deliver the 3D Audio made possible by the PlayStation®5 console." Not special hardware, just special tuning.


So unless something proves otherwise, buy 3D Pulse because you like Sony headsets or like specifically this model, not because you're worried you'll miss out on some exclusive Tempest Audio feature if you don't buy Sony's headset. Go for quality sound rather than exclusive features (especially since there don't seem to be any exclusive features here) and you should have what you need to be happy.
 
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Up and Down is extremely hard to differentiate when its coming from headphones though, same with slight differences of directions between left and right in front or behind.

I don't really believe this as I can literally track people in all my competitive games off of footsteps. I know where to aim before I even see people. I can really tell exactly where people are based on these audio cues on my headset using the Atmos plugin for windows. This software does a crazy job of feeding a headset spacial audio, even if its not true surround sound.
 
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Pre-ordered the pulse 3d headset along with the ps5. Can never go wrong with that. After all, sony is well known for their audio tech
Sony makes some fantastic headphones and iems but they aren't all fantastic.

I don't really believe this as I can literally track people in all my competitive games off of footsteps. I know where to aim before I even see people. I can really tell exactly where people are based on these audio cues on my headset using the Atmos plugin for windows. This software does a crazy job of feeding a headset spacial audio, even if its not true surround sound.
What he said was true for most people with most headphones. Tracking doesn't mean it's not true. If someone is directly on the other side of a wall 1ft away it's very hard to tell exactly where they are.
 
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Journey

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The Tempest engine is designed around the idea of having good stereo headsets....not that people with surround sound setups will have it bad, but Tempest is clearly aimed at us headset users.

So if you invested in a major pair of cans then you are actually already nextgen ready.

Im so angry Sony havent released an uncompressed version of the Ratchet and Clank gameplay, but get your cans on and watch through that.
The 3D Audio is working, and it is amazing.

People with Virtual Surround or MultiElement headphones might do themselves a favor and go and get some premium stereo headsets, we theoretically wont be needing those fake surround headphones anymore because the consoles processing will do the job better than whatever [Insert manufacturer] is using.


As for me, im using a pair of DT 770s and a pair of DT 990s depending on the game and im super ready to test the PS5s audio capabilities.


Love Beyerdynamics, I have the DT 1990 Pro, they are the first headphone I consider to finally top my old Sennheiser HD580.
 
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