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[Mobius and pet octopus]

I'm fine with scaling. I'm fine without scaling. Both tend to apply to very different games, in spite of being rpgs.

I also think when people think of scaling they think that it scales exactly to where you are in strength, but it doesn't - at least not always. I think making it work well is real great design.

Despite that, scaling is far from necessary in every rpg. And even with scaling it shouldn't be a pass on having to develop your character well.

 

[Doikor]

I really liked how it was done in GW2. Auto-scaling that only works the other way down. Game levels you and your gear down to content but not up while still leaving you a bit stronger then you would normally be on that level. This makes it fun to run around in low level areas with your friend/do puzzles/finish maps etc.

 

[redcrayon]

The main problem I find with level scaling is that it only really scales to oppose characters built for raw strength and defence. If you have been building your character for other abilties, or even not particularly focusing on melee combat, then you end up with bandits hanging around outside your house, whose total adventuring achievement is making it to the pub at the other end of town, that can kill you in one hit.

Every time I play an rpg wth level scaling, I feel like I need to be putting points into and choosing equipment for strength and defence just to keep up with the computer, rather than making the character I want to play as. Oblivion was terrible for it, with common thugs eventually having kit that I had to kill giant monsters and invade other dimensions for. If you're going to have level scaling, at least make the late-game common monsters different, rather than having a level 110 sewer rat that looks exactly the same as the ones you can just step on but hits like a dragon. It just makes being the lead character feel like you are less unique, and adventuring a bit pointless, if Boris the bandit and all his mates can reach level 80 with appropriate loot just by mugging the occasional passer-by and eating elder cheese wheels.

 

[Pitch]

I'd rather have those you came to the wrong neighbourhood moments, so that I can come back and stomp everything. Not really a fan of cruising all the way through the game.

 

[Xeilyn]

I hate auto-scaling so much! Such a stupid idea. I think about 90% of the gaming community hates it yet its still implemented, smh

 

[Majukun]

Side note - One solution some games use is scale a zone to the level you are when you first enter. This gets abused, as players quickly learn they should speed around and enter every zone, locking everything down at low levels.

one way you can do it is that the discovery of new "zones" scale the enemies in progression...

like..the player tries to force his way to level scaling all the zones to his puny level...the first zone scales alright..the second one though scales to the current level +3,the third one with the current level +6 and so one (you can either make the progression continue or restart it if the player enters a new area when level enough by going through the other areas)..plus you can add some unique zones that are indipendent in terms of level,so that the zone with the mount of doom & darkness is not by mistake locked to a sub-par level since it's designed as end game content.

anyway,i too think that designing without balancing is much harder then people thinks..specially with games like skyrim and oblivion where the sheer size and number of quests risk to make a mess of whatever system you decide to implement.

 

[Tiops]

Auto-scaling is one of the worst ideas ever on game design and whoever puts that into their game is an idiot.

Yes, I hate it.

 

[Jay Sosa]

This thread makes me wonder why we do have to put up with that shit in the first place.

I can hardly remember any other thread being this one-sided.

 

[Rephin]

Friends don't let friends auto-scale.

 

[Phreakuency]

No auto-scaling. Sure you end up facing hard enemies when you are running around in the world but that is the point. You get stronger , return and kick their asses. Also if you are good enough and beat the though enemies in the beginning you should be reward for that.

Well said.

Auto scaling sucks.

 

[BigDug13]

Level scaling is why Elder Scrolls games should only be played on PC and only with a mod that has completely removed level scaling like Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul or similar mod.

 

[Camwi]

Level scaling sucks. I loved exploring the map in a game like Final Fantasy 3/6 or Breath of Fire 2 and finding areas where the enemies would beat the shit out of me.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

This thread makes me wonder why we do have to put up with that shit in the first place.

I can hardly remember any other thread being this one-sided.

Because most people will never know (or care) about it. GAF is not a good measure of the general feelings of consumers.

 

[Nikodemos]

Wizardry had auto-scaling but it didn't feel forced. Though that was probably because monster battles started out as brutal and unforgiving and kept on being brutal and unforgiving. Also, several areas had an upper level cap on monster scaling, so going back to the Monastery meant facing pretty much the same bats, oozes and lizards you saw in the beginning. Arnika-Trynton Road, on the other hand...

 

[Birgitte2004]

This thread makes me wonder why we do have to put up with that shit in the first place.

I can hardly remember any other thread being this one-sided.

Because in spite of GAF and this thread, auto-scaling done properly is a good thing.

I don't know where the blind hatred of it comes from, unless it is from Oblivion and the like doing it completely wrong.

Like I said earlier, if your pen and paper DM/GM had you turn left and get demolished in one hit, or turn right and spent 10 8 hour sessions mowing down level 1s, the game would die(and the players would smack the DM upside the head for being stupid) because no player would want that.

Apply it to a CRPG and apparently people want to never be appropriately challenged.

Incidentally, people keep pretending auto-scaling prevents things from ever being too hard or too easy. You can scale and still change the challenge level.

 

[mclem]

I think the key problem is there's lots of talk about "returning to earlier areas" here - but that only really directly maps for a strictly linear RPG. I'm playing Dragon Age at the moment, and the entire second act is fundamentally made up of four large quests that can be tackled in any order (and indeed, some aspects encourage flitting from one such quest to another). How can you ensure a steady progression of challenge in such an environment without at least some form of scaling?

I'm assuming people here aren't actually asking for more linearity?

 

[Aaronrules380]

Because in spite of GAF and this thread, auto-scaling done properly is a good thing.

I don't know where the blind hatred of it comes from, unless it is from Oblivion and the like doing it completely wrong.

Like I said earlier, if your pen and paper DM/GM had you turn left and get demolished in one hit, or turn right and spent 10 8 hour sessions mowing down level 1s, the game would die(and the players would smack the DM upside the head for being stupid) because no player would want that.

Apply it to a CRPG and apparently people want to never be appropriately challenged.

Incidentally, people keep pretending auto-scaling prevents things from ever being too hard or too easy. You can scale and still change the challenge level.

I don't feel like pen and paper role playing game is an apt comparison for this sort of thing

 

[br0ken_shad0w]

In a good example of scaling, Guild Wars 2 like a few people mentioned. It certainly puts a shit on "real game starts at endgame" that's been plaguing MMOs the last decade or so where zones are just filler to get you to the level cap.

 

[Majukun]

Because in spite of GAF and this thread, auto-scaling done properly is a good thing.

I don't know where the blind hatred of it comes from, unless it is from Oblivion and the like doing it completely wrong.

Like I said earlier, if your pen and paper DM/GM had you turn left and get demolished in one hit, or turn right and spent 10 8 hour sessions mowing down level 1s, the game would die(and the players would smack the DM upside the head for being stupid) because no player would want that.

Apply it to a CRPG and apparently people want to never be appropriately challenged.

Incidentally, people keep pretending auto-scaling prevents things from ever being too hard or too easy. You can scale and still change the challenge level.

well it's mostly an exploraition thing.

like,let's change genre and look at platforms...back in the clllectathlon era there was a mutual agreement between developer and player,i player manage to reach that so hard to reach spot on the map that i,the player, think you developer never though I could reach,and you make me find something cool there instead,to both give me a reward and give me an incentive to try to reach other similiar areas...
that's the point games like banjo nuts and bolts failed hilariously at...you could basically go anywhere from the start since you just needed to build the appropriate wehicle,and once you were there,nothing was there to begin with because there was nothing outside of the mission the developers straight out tell you had to do.

same here..people want places that they shouldn't be able to go,and just go there anyway and be rewarded for it..and if they decide not to,thenk it's the feeling of growth that kicks in...like when you start in dark souls as a little shit having an hard time reaching the next bonfire and by the end you are this dungeon crushing machine..even though in this case it's not the character that got that good,but it's you understaning how the game works.

 

[Kubera Leez]

I like auto-scaling just for bosses to keep the challenge, but regular enemies should have set levels.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

Imagine a Souls game with level scaling.

Yuck.

 

[jroc74]

I keep using Borderlands 2 because its the only RPG I'm playing right now...like as I type this.

It does the zone leveling thing. I just started doing a DLC mission. I was at lvl 18 when I started, the place was lvl 15. (trying to get some areas out the way before my lvl gets too high. Another is locked at 15, all other DLC is 18 or 30)

So I get there and enemies are lvl 14, 15. Vending machine items (thats where you get weapons, shields, ammo, etc) same lvl or 1-2 lower. Fine. Some enemy types were different than before...I had to switch to elemental shields to take less damage.

Still at this area it has side missions and the main mission. Just completed all side missions for this starting area, they were all 15 with enemies similar lvl. Wasnt too hard, I was at lvl 18.

Now I'm doing the main mission, it takes me to a part of the area that I never visited, and its like a portal, travel area. (cut scene, door opening type deal) I get there....vending machine items are all 17-19 (I just lvl up to 19 last night) Enemies are lvl 17 - 20 so far.

This type of scaling I dont mind...because it was a new area I never visited and eventually these ppl will be beneath me as my lvl goes up. (I wasnt expecting it to happen in the same overall area tho....kinda caught me off guard.) They will lock in at a cap. Story events might change that or add new enemies here, but I can deal with that too. I never knew about level scaling until I was trying to get some weapon drops with this game. I kept fighting a boss over n over to get it and eventually the XP for the fight kept dropping til it was a waste to fight him for that. (I did eventually get the weapon. In this game when backtracking, some bosses, mini bosses always return when re entering an area (portal, door opening type deal)

I can still go way back to earlier lvls and they will still be extremely low. That boss with be around lvl 7 and an extreme piece of cake now.

 

[massoluk]

What's the point in leveling up then with auto scaling?

There it is.

What's the point? Why should I even bother becomig more powerful? Screw auto-scaling, hate it so much.

 

[autoduelist]

No auto-scaling. Sure you end up facing hard enemies when you are running around in the world but that is the point. You get stronger , return and kick their asses. Also if you are good enough and beat the though enemies in the beginning you should be reward for that.

Now, to be clear, I'm generally against auto-scaling and am not a fan of it used willy nilly.

However, I think most people are missing half of the equation, and why it's such a difficult problem.

The problem with no scaling isn't so much that you might run into harder enemies. It's that if you grind a bit too much, or do some side quest out of order, entire sections of the game might be rendered too -easy-.

Again, imagine a game where there are, say, 5 quests that are good for your level 3 characters. No matter which you do first, now you're level 6 and the other 4 quests are too easy and become boring.

And if you only make 1 quest appropriate at any given time, your game is now too linear.

Appropriate scaling solutions attempt to fix this. But both no scaling and auto-scaling can be done very, very wrong. The answer, imo, needs to be somewhere in the middle where areas have the ability to scale to you, but don't constantly rescale (that is, no rats with dragon strength). But current quests, that i've never done before, should still be challenging even if I do them out of order. Areas that are 'hard' should never be scaled down, though.


For example, at the start of the game I have 5 quests available. The first one I do will be level 1 appropriate. Whichever I choose to do second will auto-scale to be for level 3 characters. Whichever I choose to do third will scale appropriately. However, that 5th mission is meant to be super hard, and will never scale below level 7 because it's supposed to be the last one I do. But again, none of this is easy. What if the player starts but doesn't finish each quest? They're leveling, but do quests get locked at the level the player entered? Or do they scale to present a current challenge? This is no easy problem to solve, and people acting as if 'no scaling' at all is the easy and obvious solution are missing the issues that too brings to the table.

No leveling has issues too. Autoscaling without complicated systems (rats as powerful as dragons) is the absolute worst, though.

 

[drakkykun]

Hated auto scaling in Dragons Dogma.

What? There's no auto-scaling in Dragon's Dogma. Heck, the game was criticized because you outleveled everything really quick.

 

[Soultaker0220]

Now, to be clear, I'm generally against auto-scaling and am not a fan of it used willy nilly.

However, I think most people are missing half of the equation, and why it's such a difficult problem.

The problem with no scaling isn't so much that you might run into harder enemies. It's that if you grind a bit too much, or do some side quest out of order, entire sections of the game might be rendered too -easy-.

Again, imagine a game where there are, say, 5 quests that are good for your level 3 characters. No matter which you do first, now you're level 6 and the other 4 quests are too easy and become boring.

And if you only make 1 quest appropriate at any given time, your game is now too linear.

Appropriate scaling solutions attempt to fix this. But both no scaling and auto-scaling can be done very, very wrong. The answer, imo, needs to be somewhere in the middle where areas have the ability to scale to you, but don't constantly rescale (that is, no rats with dragon strength). But current quests, that i've never done before, should still be challenging even if I do them out of order. Areas that are 'hard' should never be scaled down, though.


For example, at the start of the game I have 5 quests available. The first one I do will be level 1 appropriate. Whichever I choose to do second will auto-scale to be for level 3 characters. Whichever I choose to do third will scale appropriately. However, that 5th mission is meant to be super hard, and will never scale below level 7 because it's supposed to be the last one I do. But again, none of this is easy. What if the player starts but doesn't finish each quest? They're leveling, but do quests get locked at the level the player entered? Or do they scale to present a current challenge? This is no easy problem to solve, and people acting as if 'no scaling' at all is the easy and obvious solution are missing the issues that too brings to the table.

No leveling has issues too. Autoscaling without complicated systems (rats as powerful as dragons) is the absolute worst, though.

Good point. I have been in the situation where I have completed everything and faced final bosses which were easier then the first enemies (FFX) so autoscaling those type of encounters would probably work for the better. As you said , it is a difficult question because you have pro and cons for with our without auto-scaling. Just happy I'm not a game developer.

 

[Coxswain]

The problem with no scaling isn't so much that you might run into harder enemies. It's that if you grind a bit too much, or do some side quest out of order, entire sections of the game might be rendered too -easy-.

Yeah, that's something that I feel tends to get left out of conversations on scaling.

It's an actual, legitimate problem with a lot of RPGs that the more you put into the game (that is, the more content you complete, presumably because you like playing the game), the more the game ends up robbing you of the experience you were after in the first place - challenging, engaging combat scenarios.

Careless, simplified 1:1 scaling systems are obviously not the solution, but neither is 'no scaling, ever', and 1:1 isn't representative of every single possible method of implementing level scaling.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Yeah, that's something that I feel tends to get left out of conversations on scaling.

It's an actual, legitimate problem with a lot of RPGs that the more you put into the game (that is, the more content you complete, presumably because you like playing the game), the more the game ends up robbing you of the experience you were after in the first place - challenging, engaging combat scenarios.

Careless, simplified 1:1 scaling systems are obviously not the solution, but neither is 'no scaling, ever', and 1:1 isn't representative of every single possible method of implementing level scaling.

Pillars of Eternity has a bit of this. You hit the level cap way before the end of the game if you're exploring and doing all the quests, which presumably people who enjoy the game will do (I know I did).

But then the question is, assuming no scaling, do you then design your game with the level cap that expects players to do everything in each area before moving on? If you do that, then everyone who doesn't find every item, do every quest, etc, faces a much greater challenge, and certainly there are players who just want to tackle the main quest.

It's a difficult balancing act.

 

[Hyperzephyrian]

I don't understand the hatred on display here for all scaling. It can be an important and useful tool that makes a game just the right amount of challenging, especially in open-world games--do you want to fight level 1 rats in the overworld for 60 hours?

Scaling can be done well (by having a mix of static and scaled enemies, making high-level monsters look different from low-level ones, and not implementing scaling as a simple linear function), and it can be done poorly (like pretty much everything in Oblivion).

There are some games where it doesn't make sense to include scaling. But writing the concept off completely is stupid.

 

[bj00rn_]

Exactly. I don't want to trounce everything after reaching a certain level. That is boring and not fun. If I have to go back to an area (and it's an RPG so of course I do) I want to have some challenge in the combat. If I'm overlevelled it should be slightly easier, but not walk-in-the-park easier.

You didn't enjoy Dark Souls?

 

[Toxi]

backtracking to early areas should feel like this

Jesus Christ, how is that guy so comfortable standing in a pit of cobras?

 

[Rolf NB]

The problem with no scaling isn't so much that you might run into harder enemies. It's that if you grind a bit too much, or do some side quest out of order, entire sections of the game might be rendered too -easy-.

Again, imagine a game where there are, say, 5 quests that are good for your level 3 characters. No matter which you do first, now you're level 6 and the other 4 quests are too easy and become boring.

And if you only make 1 quest appropriate at any given time, your game is now too linear.

That problem assumes a very specific combination of wide open world with on-rails quests. If your quests take place in areas as open as the, urr, shall we say non-quest areas, you have no issue to solve.

Say, Diablo 3.

If an area is too easy, you bee-line through it, stomping everything in the way with minimal engagement. It won't be long until ... you reach a more difficult area and challenge / reward balance restores itself.

 

[Coxswain]

If an area is too easy, you bee-line through it, stomping everything in the way with minimal engagement.

That is a huge problem. It's actually markedly worse than it would be for that content to simply not exist, because I have to waste my time stomping through wet tissues and having zero fun while I do so, instead of immediately moving on to something that's actually fun. Let alone what I actually want, which is to play that content but for it to be an actual challenge.

 

[Rolf NB]

That is a huge problem. It's actually markedly worse than it would be for that content to simply not exist, because I have to waste my time stomping through wet tissues and having zero fun while I do so, instead of immediately moving on to something that's actually fun. Let alone what I actually want, which is to play that content but for it to be an actual challenge.

The point was more the bee-lining, less the stomping. Bee-lining as opposed to clearing. Which is of course only a useful distinction if the area you're currently in is open in many directions.

There might be 20000 enemies to stomp if you really intend to explore that area fully and clear every corner, but if you determine it's kind of too easy already, it's just a minute to skip the rest of it.

I rarely hear people complaining that Diablo games are too easy. If they were, you'd just skip an area or entire act as described, or increase the difficulty level.

 

[bj00rn_]

Jesus Christ, how is that guy so comfortable standing in a pit of cobras?

Because usually they pull the fangs out of the snakes before throwing them into the pit.. So it's not quite as cool as people think, it's rather quite fucking sad.

 

[Fandangox]

Jesus Christ, how is that guy so comfortable standing in a pit of cobras?

Spoiler

Both Cobras and Spiders are cute anyway

 

[Timeaisis]

You didn't enjoy Dark Souls?

Player level has almost nothing to do with difficulty of Dark Souls. Two different game types.