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[Anaxagoras]

You should now go get drunk and eat some pork. I recommend bacon (not the foul Canadian variety), real ham, and sausage.

:lol :lol

Seasonal microbrews are good if you want to see what the deal is with beer but that might be some heavy stuff for a first timer. Maybe try a simple Corona? Mead is really tasty and might be a good place to start. Heck, you could even try sake or sochu.

I have been an atheist since February so I have done a lot of that already
Thanks for the recommendations anyway!

 

[Count Dookkake]

Nizar, was that what you were asking about?

Kinitari pretty much explained it.

But read the thread, many laughs to be had at creepy virign GAF and their incest fantasies. :lol

 

[Anaxagoras]

Nizar, was that what you were asking about?

Kinitari pretty much explained it.

But read the thread, many laughs to be had at creepy virign GAF and their incest fantasies. :lol

Yeah, that was my question, I am already laughing before having read anything of it

 

[Calcaneus]

I can't stand Ham, but I love eating sausages.

Bacon is good too, but I once had like a pound of bacon in a day, and since then I can't eat so much.

I tried bacon once, it was okay. I remember accidentally eating some as a kid, and thinking it wasn't so bad then as well.

 

[ChoklitReign]

If Mass wasn't so boring and the Catholic Church accepted homosexuals and contraception I would still be a Catholic. Then, there's the problem of evil...

 

[Kimosabae]

I guess you can, but I prefer it not being spread around the internet, I just feel safe having it here and about my facebook I don't know man, that kind of scares me, I don't want some guys hunting me down for this ^^ but feel free to link to the page if you want.

Why are you so interested in this if I may ask? ^^'

I'm a superbly anti-religious Sociology grad student, is all, and the social dynamics that emerge from religion fascinate me.

I doubt the link will go beyond my own page. A handful of friends and I like to discuss these things, is all, If you feel like adding me, my name is "Kimosabae Grant". Your perspective on the various links I post would be welcome.


For anyone that may not have seen it, a good debate took place recently between Dawkins, Harries, Grayling and Moore:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_3d0q1LDa0&feature=PlayList&p=45065FAA19FE4EE1&index=0&playnext=1

 

[MadraptorMan]

Very good read, thanks for sharing.

Stuff like this makes me feel so lucky that my mother never pushed any religion on me...I really appreciate now that I was able to make up my own mind about what I believe, instead of being indoctrinated.

 

[Anaxagoras]

I'm a superbly anti-religious Sociology grad student, is all, and the social dynamics that emerge from religion fascinate me.

I doubt the link will go beyond my own page. A handful of friends and I like to discuss these things, is all, If you feel like adding me, my name is "Kimosabae Grant". Your perspective on the various links I post would be welcome.


For anyone that may not have seen it, a good debate took place recently between Dawkins, Harries, Grayling and Moore:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_3d0q1LDa0&feature=PlayList&p=45065FAA19FE4EE1&index=0&playnext=1

Feel free then, I added you.

There is a new one posted today, I haven't watched it yet, only part of Hitchens opening statement, I always find it funny how the audience always laughs at whatever he says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZIRuVMSw8U&feature=PlayList&p=8286682E48E90518&index=0&playnext=1

 

[Anaxagoras]

I tried bacon once, it was okay. I remember accidentally eating some as a kid, and thinking it wasn't so bad then as well.

I tried it once at school by mistake, didn't think too much of it just felt like normal food to me.

 

[Sibylus]

Stuff like this makes me feel so lucky that my mother never pushed any religion on me...I really appreciate now that I was able to make up my own mind about what I believe, instead of being indoctrinated.

Yes, you really are lucky. Childhood indoctrination is so unbelievably hard to shake because you believe every word that comes out of Mom and Dad's mouth. In my case, it took the exposure to other viewpoints on the internet before I started letting reason in.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Very good read, thanks for sharing.

Stuff like this makes me feel so lucky that my mother never pushed any religion on me...I really appreciate now that I was able to make up my own mind about what I believe, instead of being indoctrinated.

I guess that we aren't all that lucky but at least when I look at the postive side, I learned a lot from this experience and I am very proud of it.

I am glad you liked it!

 

[industrian]

Very good read, thanks for sharing.

Stuff like this makes me feel so lucky that my mother never pushed any religion on me...I really appreciate now that I was able to make up my own mind about what I believe, instead of being indoctrinated.

I'm really grateful for my parents not being religious.

Actually I don't know if they're religious or not, but we never went to church, it was never talked about and generally never brought up. They either didn't believe in anything, didn't care, or had better things to do on a Sunday morning.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Yes, you really are lucky. Childhood indoctrination is so unbelievably hard to shake because you believe every word that comes out of Mom and Dad's mouth. In my case, it took the exposure to other viewpoints on the internet before I started letting reason in.

True, there are many things that you just have to take your parents word for it, like to standing close to the edge of the balcony, not to swim with the crocodiles or not to eat this or that, something can't be experimented on until older age which is usually too late for most of the people to turn around.

 

[demosthenes]

Good read OP.

I was born and raised Catholic. By a young age, like 5 or 6, I started questioning everything. I just couldn't stop asking questions. When I was 10 or so, we were going over creationism in religious school (the once a week on wednesday night for an hour and a half) and I brought up how it didn't make sense. I argued about, why I knew this at this age I don't know, about how evolution made sense to me and Adam and Eve did not. I was also REALLY REALLY into astronomy from a young age and I said that what the bible said didn't make sense. They eventually called the principal and then the priest, none of their answers worked for me, they called my mom and she took me home.

Fast forward to my confirmation year. It was years of "mom, let me drop this" and me going literally for her. Over the years, more education and actually (I may get some laughs), a video game by the title of Xenogears (introduces religion as a tool to control) finally pushed me over the edge.

We were sitting in the gym with the priest and several teachers telling us how they were so excited for us to be there and become eager church goers and get engaged in church service. I leaned over to my mom and said "this is enough". She finally let me stop going. My brother followed me shortly after (2 years before confirmation).

My mom says it's her one regret over us and I tell her it's one of the best things she's ever done, let us decide.

I'll throw this in there.

My dad's side of the family...very large, very irish catholic. He had 6 sisters. My aunts/uncles when I told them "well what do you mean you're not going to be confirmed"..."I don't get it..". I got the cold shoulder for literally a year or two from some of them.

 

[Masenkame]

That was interesting to read. I come from a moderately conservative Pakistani Muslim family and also decided to commit apostasy. Well, more like a gradual retreat from religion in general, but you know how that goes. It all falls apart pretty quickly. Anyways, good luck man.

 

[Dead Man]

Don't know what to say really, that's the way I am, sorry if I offended or annoyed you in a way or another.

All good, I might have been a bit 'sensitive' that day!

 

[SmokyDave]

Thanks for sharing. I'm glad things are getting better between you and your family and I hope others respect your (lack of) beliefs.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Were you implying that being a homosexual is on the same moral level as thievery, pedophilia, and alcoholism, and if so, do you still feel that way?

:lol he's obviously telling his parents who DO feel that way that none of those things should worry him.

also, if you read his story he's cool with the gays.

Good story dude, nice to hear one about a rabid fanatic slowly becoming rational and taking a moderate approach to life, too often it's the other way around.

 

[MrHicks]

your dad seemed like a reasonable guy in the beginning about it
too bad later he wanted you out of the house

the mother's reaction is kinda expected
she just freaks out because she thinks her dear son is gonna burn in hell forever (thats what muslims believe for nonbelievers right?)

stories like this give me hope that children being brainwashed since early childhood before they have the power to think for themselves can STILL get out of the whole thing when they get older

theres just people out there you KNOW are gonna believe this shit untill their deaths no matter what happens
good to see not everyone is like that
theres still hope for a more enlightened future

 

[Instigator]

You just reminded me of one of the benefits that I can have if I join the UN peace keepers or the Swedish Army, if I fall into the hands of the terrorists or the extremists I am a Muslim, and if the Jews or somebody else I am a Swed.

If you'd fall into the hands of the Israelis, I don't think saying you're a Swede would help you much. Lots of Sweden bashing over there lately.

I'd emphasize being a ex-Muslim instead.

 

[Alucrid]

Wow. When I decided to give up Christianity it was more of a, "I'd rather sleep in on Sunday." then a critical analysis of my belief. :lol Good read though.

 

[ToxicAdam]

I am amazed at the conversation you and your parents had. I'm sure for many others (myself included) it would have been far shorter, less intelligent and ended in shouting and some doors being slammed.

 

[LogicStep]

Good for you man. Everyone should chose their own beliefs, not get them handed down by others.

 

[SmokyDave]

Good for you man. Everyone should chose their own beliefs, not get them handed down by others.

If the world worked like that religion would die out in no time. Imagine being presented with the beliefs of any of the monotheistic religions as a fully grown rational and educated adult.

 

[jett]

That was a really interesting read, thanks for sharing.

 

[Darackutny]

Honesty, I've got some doubts regarding the way you've portrayed your father, Nizar. I find it hard to swallow the idea that a convert would choose Islam without finding any evidence for it. Him saying "you need to have faith" is something an ignorant Muslim would say, not a convert.

 

[Dead Man]

Honesty, I've got some doubts regarding the way you've portrayed your father, Nizar. I find it hard to swallow the idea that a convert would choose Islam without finding any evidence for it. Him saying "you need to have faith" is something an ignorant Muslim would say, not a convert.

Hmmm... your argument is persuasive, tell me more about this universal knowledge of peoples motivations.

 

[SmokyDave]

Honesty, I've got some doubts regarding the way you've portrayed your father, Nizar. I find it hard to swallow the idea that a convert would choose Islam without finding any evidence for it. Him saying "you need to have faith" is something an ignorant Muslim would say, not a convert.

How else would you? You're never going to find any evidence because there isn't any, it would always be a matter of blind faith, surely?

 

[jorma]

Honesty, I've got some doubts regarding the way you've portrayed your father, Nizar. I find it hard to swallow the idea that a convert would choose Islam without finding any evidence for it. Him saying "you need to have faith" is something an ignorant Muslim would say, not a convert.

"You need to have faith" is what all religious persons always say. No matter the religion. So i'm not getting where you are coming from at all.

 

[MrHicks]

Honesty, I've got some doubts regarding the way you've portrayed your father, Nizar. I find it hard to swallow the idea that a convert would choose Islam without finding any evidence for it. Him saying "you need to have faith" is something an ignorant Muslim would say, not a convert.

faith (belief WITHOUT evidence) is the whole point of religion
if any god whatsoever tommorow made himself known to the world and does miracles live on CNN i'd become religious too

i'd become muslim,hindu, zeus acolyte....sign me up right then and there
i'm however not gonna follow anything simply on "faith" and some old texts with stories on them

 

[SolsticeZero]

I congratulate you, sir, I really do. You've taken brave steps that many, many people around the world are too afraid to take. If you were here, I'd buy you a beer and we can toast to apostasy!

 

[ant_]

Great story.

 

[EmSeta]

Honesty, I've got some doubts regarding the way you've portrayed your father, Nizar. I find it hard to swallow the idea that a convert would choose Islam without finding any evidence for it. Him saying "you need to have faith" is something an ignorant Muslim would say, not a convert.

What?? :lol

 

[Darackutny]

Hmmm... your argument is persuasive, tell me more about this universal knowledge of peoples motivations.

Hahah! Well, I can't really say that I know for a fact what drove Nizar's dad to accept Islam, however, it usually takes more than "they live a better way than we do" for one to accept a new religion as true. This is especially true when you come from Western society which usually looks at conservative Islam as backwards/barbaric.

How else would you? You're never going to find any evidence because there isn't any, it would always be a matter of blind faith, surely?

I've seen evidence. How much do you know of Islam? How much Ibn Taymiyah or Al-Bayhaqi have you read?

"You need to have faith" is what all religious persons always say. No matter the religion. So i'm not getting where you are coming from at all.

You must be talking about the average Muslim joe. "Having faith" in the existence of God or the prophethood of Mohammed isn't the typo of lingo that you will find at the end of the tongue of a Muslim scholar.

 

[Kimosabae]

stories like this give me hope that children being brainwashed since early childhood before they have the power to think for themselves can STILL get out of the whole thing when they get older

This is a prime example of what we call "Differential Association Theory" in the social sciences.

It is clear Nizar's mere first-hand exposure to counter-cultural ethics/norms stimulated his ability to think critically from new vantage points. The more he became exposed to deviant stimuli, the more he was able to craft rationalizations that justified deviant behavior with more favorable definitions than conformist behaviors. The more isolation from conformity the person has at his/her disposal, the more efficient the process.

The point is, people are primarily subject to their social contexts and not everyone "lucks out" regarding their associations and degrees of exposure. Globalization/modernity is a process that is changing things rapidly, but many, such as those in the Middle East, simply see it as an expansion of Euro-Centric Western Masculinity more than anything "enlightening", hence the rise of fundamentalism in those places.

The fact that Nizar's exposure began in Saudi Arabia of all places...

 

[ToxicAdam]

Muslim scholar.

Should these words ever appear in the same sentence next to each other?

 

[vooglie]

Good story. My own story is somewhat similar, though I never became anything more than a moderate Muslim before leaving the fold altogether. I've always had doubts about god, religion, and faith, so once I got into university and had lots of procrastination time I studied Islam and talked about Islam and god with a lot of people online. After a while I became a deist, and soon after I became completely atheist.

Indoctrination is a very scary thing. Even though I'm atheist I can still feel me regressing to my religious roots by reflex at times. For example if I am in an unpleasant situation I'll start thinking about Allah -- they way we were taught to from when I was a kid, and then tell myself that I don't believe in these things anymore. Growing up, religion was so ingrained into us and such a normal part of our lives (i.e. you'd wake up, pray, have breakfast, go to school, pray, lunch, etc.) that it becomes very hard to discard it completely.

The day that I told myself I am no longer a Muslim was the day it felt like I had a tonne of weight magically lifted off my shoulders. And then I tasted bacon. Jesus fuck that stuff is tasty.

 

[liquid_gears]

Very interesting read. Thanks for posting. Good luck with sorting your family situation out too. I suppose it's weird when you look back and consider 'what if...?'. What if you never had atheist neighbours? What if you never moved to Sweden? ...

I see that Darackutny is trying his best to derail discussion by talking about something that he knows absolutely nothing about.

 

[Instigator]

This is a prime example of what we call "Differential Association Theory" in the social sciences.

It is clear Nizar's mere first-hand exposure to counter-cultural ethics/norms stimulated his ability to think critically from new vantage points. The more he became exposed to deviant stimuli, the more he was able to craft rationalizations that justified deviant behavior with more favorable definitions than conformist behaviors. The more isolation from conformity the person has at his/her disposal, the more efficient the process.

The point is, people are primarily subject to their social contexts and not everyone "lucks out" regarding their associations and degrees of exposure. Globalization/modernity is a process that is changing things rapidly, but many, such as those in the Middle East, simply see it as an expansion of Euro-Centric Western Masculinity more than anything "enlightening", hence the rise of fundamentalism in those places.

The fact that Nizar's exposure began in Saudi Arabia of all places...

Gotta wonder if all those Muslim apostates at GAF are having some influence of the few Muslim hold-outs also posting here, a bit like you can trace back Nizar's journey really started with that atheist family he knew back then.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Honesty, I've got some doubts regarding the way you've portrayed your father, Nizar. I find it hard to swallow the idea that a convert would choose Islam without finding any evidence for it. Him saying "you need to have faith" is something an ignorant Muslim would say, not a convert.

That is exactly what he said and I can promise you that I didn't change anything of what he said to portray him in a different way.

I guess it's the context that made him talk about lifestyles, he probably thought that I wanted to leave Islam so I would be able to get drunk whenever I want and have sex as just as regularly as having dinner, so he tried to convince me that the western lifestyle is not worth leaving Islam for by talking to me about his past experiences.

There is no evidence, and my mother didn't provide me with any either that convinced her to stay a Muslim all this time, it only sounds reasonable to them, the best they can do is talk about how great Islam is and the miraculous stories in the Quran which scientist around the world are agreeing more and more with everyday which is not true at all.

I guess you have some evidence so why don't you share it with us?

 

[Milk Lizard]

Now you should marry a jewish man.

 

[GSG Flash]

The day that I told myself I am no longer a Muslim was the day it felt like I had a tonne of weight magically lifted off my shoulders. And then I tasted bacon. Jesus fuck that stuff is tasty.

They have halal bacon substitutes made from chicken.

http://www.zabihahalal.com/products.asp?ID=29

Now obviously having never tasted bacon I don't know if the taste is the same, but when you fry it, it smells exactly like the bacon at my work's cafeteria that I had to smell thanks to my co workers.

And these chicken strips are really tasty as well.

 

[Anaxagoras]

They have halal bacon substitutes made from chicken.

http://www.zabihahalal.com/products.asp?ID=29

Now obviously having never tasted bacon I don't know if the taste is the same, but when you fry it, it smells exactly like the bacon at my work's cafeteria that I had to smell thanks to my co workers.

And these chicken strips are really tasty as well.

might not be safe for work:
http://www.selfservetoys.com/store/images/male-sex-toy-fleshlight-lady.jpg

 

[Instigator]

They have halal bacon substitutes made from chicken.

http://www.zabihahalal.com/products.asp?ID=29

Now obviously having never tasted bacon I don't know if the taste is the same, but when you fry it, it smells exactly like the bacon at my work's cafeteria that I had to smell thanks to my co workers.

And these chicken strips are really tasty as well.

Tried the ones made from Turkey once. It didn't taste like bacon to me. Not bad, but I'd rather eat real bacon... or regular Turkey.

 

[Vast Inspiration]

You're just really malleable and you still don't really have a mind of your own.

Do you think about how many innocent people die in Iraq and how many Americans celebrate their troops killing "the terrorists"? Do you consider Americans or the westerners barbarians?

My point is that throughout your story, you go from one spectrum to another, and the only consistency is the shitty logic you use to justify your changing beliefs. Learn to think for yourself.

There is no evidence, and my mother didn't provide me with any either that convinced her to stay a Muslim all this time, it only sounds reasonable to them, the best they can do is talk about how great Islam is and the miraculous stories in the Quran which scientist around the world are agreeing more and more with everyday which is not true at all.

I guess you have some evidence so why don't you share it with us?

And shit like this is why you will never understand why it "faith" is enough for people. I think people really do skew a lot of teachings and beliefs (in EVERY religion), and they try to impose shit on to others. I definitely do believe that.

But your "share your evidence with us" shtick is so fucking laughable.

 

[riskVSreward]

all I got available right now is cornflakes, no milk and some pasta, not cooked, its only 7:00 in the morning here and you are making me starve

You really need to eat ribs and bacon, not necessarily at the same time.... no, fuck it, at the same time.

 

[J.ceaz]

And shit like this is why you will never understand why it "faith" is enough for people. I think people really do skew a lot of teachings and beliefs (in EVERY religion), and they try to impose shit on to others. I definitely do believe that.

But your "share your evidence with us" shtick is so fucking laughable.

the show me evidence schtick as you call it is perfectly fine to ask for. If someone tries to sell you a car wouldn't you wanna look at it? If it's the OP's perogative to believe in the physical world and what physically exists and what can be proven to exist then that's his choice.

 

[riskVSreward]

"Show me the CarFax!"

 

[ianp622]

11th September happens, I has outside the house biking when I see the kids happy and jumping around, I tried to understand what has happened but didn't really succeed at that until I went back home and saw my family in front of the TV watching the twin tours burn down, everybody seemed happy that the Americans finally got a taste of their own medicine, I was happy too since everybody considered it back then a muslim victory against the nonmuslims, but at the same I had mixed feelings about it knowing that there might be people like Jason and his family who has died in the attack.

The Imams used to pray against the Americans everyday, they managed to reason their way and connected the dots, claiming that this is all war on Islam and reminding us of what the Prophet did back in the days and the rewards we get if we do this and that.

I started to become more and more religious, my hate for nonmuslims grew specially for gays and jews, I started to support terrorist attacks, I looked up to Osama bin Laden (who my father worked with in KSA in a project to build extra toilets or something like that in Mecca before he became a terrorist), Al Zarqawi (fourth most wanted terrorist in Iraq, he was some what related my mothers family and I have been to his families house once), Hezbollah, and the religious political movements in the middle east.

Wait, everybody always tells me only "extremist" Muslims are like this, and that Islam is a peaceful religion. I mean, there isn't a shortage of extremist Muslims trying to take over Europe to criticize, but I guess I've always drawn a line (although I hate all religions). Is this view more common than the media makes it out to be?

I can't believe "normal" people were excited that almost 3000 people died.

 

[riskVSreward]

I can't believe "normal" people were excited that almost 3000 people died.

Well, you must consider their version of the news.