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The Strong Yen Riddle: let's understand it

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Kenka

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So what's the fuss about: A currency being high (or low) has both positive and negative effects. While the yen is high, Japanese can on one hand buy whatever they want abroad while nobody will buy from them. Imagine that Panasonic, Nintendo, Toyota, Nikon, Sanyo, NEC and all these Japanese mammooths are being slaughtered each time they sell abroad (at a loss because of the exchange rate). What is keeping the fucking Yen so high? Who is controlling the demand? Shit has dramatic effects, it's a recipe for triggering huge changes in a tiny timeframe. Recently, gaffers wondered why Nintendo wasn't pushing the 3DS harder in the US. Well, the answer is because they are not suicidal. Downright insane! Who is allowing such a situation to occur? Why isn't the world more worried? Had it happenned to the US, none of you guys would have a job as we are speaking, this is like bullying.


EDIT: OK, I might have shot in the dark with the OP: Japan used to make a lot of money out of the US, since they send a hell of a lot of goods over there. But somehow, they cannot make money there anymore, why?

First and foremost, you get more (!) dollars when you exchange Yen at home in Saitama for your vacation in Austin, TX than last year for example. Woohoo good news!
How many yen do you have to pay from your pocket to get a dollar through the years? If the trend is descending, dollars are "cheaper" (I know this sounds crazy but this is something we actually observe) and everything you can buy with dollars is cheaper, so why not buy everything from there! If in 1990, you had to pay 160 yen from your pocket to get a dollar, you know give the bank only 80. In twenty years, the US have become twice as cheap as before!

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This looks real good! Japanese dudes, all buy their goods in the US then! They even might get a WiiU before the official launch in their country but, ergh, "region-locked". Meh. But normally, if you buy in the US, you're a smart ass.


But what happens when you sell there? Well, you're fucked: why? Imagine you produce a WiiU for 30'000 yen in Nagano or Hiroshima. You planned to sell it 350$ in the US and 1000 $ in Australia (sorry Aussies) to get a good margin. The exchange rate is at 30'000 yen = 350$ at launch day. Imagine you paid all your workers before you sell the console to James Dude in Denver. You have 30'000 yen going out in the co-workers pocket and you get 30'000 yen going in thanks to James Dude. But now, you don't know why, you need less yen to afford 350$, say 29'000 yen, the trend of Murrica getting cheaper going on. So, you pay your co-workers when they produce the second WiiU 30'000 yen and you receive 29'000 yen courtesy of James Dude. You lost 1'000 yen! Well, you don't know why the fuck the exchange rate has changed but you raise your price to compensate... and all of a sudden the third James Dude doesn't wanna pay, arguing that the console is too expensive and is off buying a 360, produced in the US, whose price doesn't need to be raised. You're sitting in your office like an asshole wondering how you can take the price down because of a stupid exchange rate.

Now imagine you face this problem in every fucking country in the world and that your population gets older and older. People abroad say you're expensive, people in your country are too old to play. You're f*cked up to the throat.
 
It's been this way for awhile. Japan doesn't manipulate it's currency unlike China, which is a big part of why they are getting murdered in electronics
 
Strong currency is always bad for an export-based economy. In fact, the strength of the yen in particular has consistently been a problem for Japan, who desperately wants to export to the United States. Unfortunately, Japan has a fundamentals problem -- to get the price of the yen to where they want it to be would require interest rates below zero, which can't be done with a traditional central banking system. This has been an issue for Japan for like two years now. (The United States started QE3 in response to this exact problem. Unfortunately, economic stimulus in nations other than Japan just makes life HARDER for Japan, because it makes the yen relatively even stronger.)

Who is allowing such a situation to occur? Why isn't the world more worried? Had it happenned to the US, none of you guys would have a job as we are speaking, this is like bullying.

It IS happening in the United States and everybody is super angry about it.
 
I'm sure there are more complex answers, but I read that since the crisis, the Yen has been seen as a safe currency, so many left the Euro and Dollar to buy Yen. I am not an economics major, so this may be icnorrect.
 
Yeah, it is kinda weird considering how massive the Japanese national debt is. But people trust Japan. They own most of their own debt.

I guess they are kinda like the USA right now .. . a shit situation but what else are you gonna do? Stash your money in Greece? Spain? Ireland? Etc.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King!
 
Not really. The place it is right now is because of their currency manipulation over the last decade and a half.

I can't find any evidence of this besides right wing blog posts
There's one Reuters story last year of Japan trying to stop the rise of the yen. Obviously whatever they did only had a short term effect
 
Might have to cancel my trip to Japan in April, spending there will be crazy expensive.
I might do so but I would feel dumb.

I still don't understand Japanese economy and mentality enough. Those guys own their own debt, they grow in age, their companies are struggling abroad, domestic demand supposedly is lower due to demographics, exporting is expensive, their money will be lost forever if their companies have nowhere to sell. What is that, calm and slow mass-suicide?
 
how is the yen strong when all the huge electronics dealers are posting 10 billion $ losses?

Because this is a case of technical jargon stealing a word and giving it a different meaning from the one it would have normally. "Strong" currency isn't an inherently good thing.
 
Yeah, don't really understand it either. When you have a deflation you just print more money. Problem solved, right?

There is political opposition to this in Japan. A large fraction of the population are old people living off pensions and savings, for whom deflation is beneficial.
 
Scary. I've been to Japan twice and yeah that exchange rate hurts. But I always found some cheap hotels and lived off cup ramen/orange juice while I was there. Just to afford my arcade expenditures. I didn't realize 100 yen was a dollar until I had plopped 10 of them in a crane machine. Damn korean currency desnsitized me (100 korean won is equivalent to $10). Those machines are rigged!
 
First time I went to Japan in 2006, the exchange rate was 116 yen to the US dollar. When we went back in 2010, it was 85 yen to the US dollar.

Yeah I haven't been to Japan since 2005. The exchange rate has been really unattractive. Tourism must be hurting - which is also a sign of a bad economy.
 
It's been this way for awhile. Japan doesn't manipulate it's currency unlike China, which is a big part of why they are getting murdered in electronics

The US manipulates its currency as much as China does. They are just less direct about it. How else do you think the yen appreciated so quickly against the dollar. Think about that for at least a minute.

Strong currency is always bad for an export-based economy. In fact, the strength of the yen in particular has consistently been a problem for Japan, who desperately wants to export to the United States. Unfortunately, Japan has a fundamentals problem -- to get the price of the yen to where they want it to be would require interest rates below zero, which can't be done with a traditional central banking system. This has been an issue for Japan for like two years now. (The United States started QE3 in response to this exact problem. Unfortunately, economic stimulus in nations other than Japan just makes life HARDER for Japan, because it makes the yen relatively even stronger.).

It is not as simple as that. Yes, a strong currency is bad for an export-dependent country like Japan. However, it may ultimately be good for the country because Japanese manufacturers would be forced to become more competitive and innovative to keep up with the rest of the world. If there is one thing Japanese companies need, it is definitely a kick up the ass and a strong currency just might do it.
 
Relevant;

Has Chinese Currency Manipulation Succeeded in Breaking Japanese Manufacturers?

Something has to give, either Japanese manufacturers will get wiped out or something will deflate the Yen.
naked capitalism said:
Most observers thought a yen above 90 would be catastrophic for Japanese exporters, even allowing for the fact that they have moved a lot of production to lower-cost centers elsewhere in Asia. And the yen maintained that price from the crisis onward, and more recently has sustained the astonishing level of above 80 even in the face of intervention by the Bank of Japan. And there’s a reason for that. China has been buying yen, forcing Japan to buy dollars to keep the yen from going even higher. In other words, China has been accumulating yen and shifting the “dollar manipulation” onto Japan.
Read more at http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012...panese-manufacturers.html#aSDQJcMv40YQVUhs.99
Those guys are actually undermining Japan's efforts in recovering while keeping yuan low to maintain their exports. Just... wow.

Japan’s government said it will seek discussions with China over the nation’s record purchases of Japanese bonds as an appreciating yen threatens to undermine an economic recovery.

Japan is closely watching the transactions and will seek to maintain close contact with Chinese authorities on the issue, Vice Finance Minister Naoki Minezaki told lawmakers in Tokyo. Finance Minister Yoshihiko Noda suggested at the same hearing that it’s inappropriate for China to buy Japan’s bonds without a reciprocal ability for Japanese to invest in China’s market.
Damn.

Very interesting article. Nice contribution magenta. But more questions arise: why does China target Japan, and can they switch to another country when they feel like it? Why can't Japan defend themselves?
 
That pretty much sounds like economic terrorism.
Japan Nears Recession Amid China Boycott

It seems like one big factor is that the Chinese are not so happy with the Senkoku islands (or common history of the two countries for evident reasons), blocks the entrance of Japanese goods, buy massive amounts of yen to keep it high and hurt Japanese exporters. Japanese politicians don't have a clue how to respond so far.

This is clearly economic war. And nobody has told China to reconsider their actions.



edit: there seems to be some political move right now in Japan:

New Japanese political party unveiled

China Daily/Asia News Network said:
By Zhang Yunbi

Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012

JAPAN - Former Tokyo governor Shintaro Ishihara on Tuesday unveiled his new party, marking the latest round of Japanese political turmoil before the expected lower house dissolution and general election.

Also on Tuesday, Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda, haunted by record low popularity, received a rare rebuke from inside his own party over his plan to dissolve the lower house before the end of the year.

Yet observers said the right-wing 80-year-old Ishihara, who is known for his ambition to be a third force in the country's politics, will not win much nationwide in the upcoming major electoral reshuffle.

Ishihara's Party of Sun, incorporating all five members of the conservative opposition Sunrise Party, aims to achieve a "stronger Japan" and forge a "third force" to challenge major ruling and opposition parties in the looming general election, Japan's Kyodo News Agency said.

"The Party of Sun is only the first step. Unity in the common interests will be achieved before the next election of the house of representatives," Japan's Asahi Shimbun newspaper quoted Ishihara as saying.

Ishihara also named the Sunrise Party, and "the similar title Ishihara came up with for his new party shows his lack of creativity and talent," said Wang Xinsheng, a professor of Japanese studies at Peking University.

The new party aims to join hands with Osaka Mayor Toru Hashimoto's Japan Restoration Party and the minor opposition Your Party to form the third trunk of Japanese national politics, Kyodo said.

"Yet the new party's influence may be much smaller than expected, and its popularity will fade away like bubbles," said Wang, who indicated that the new party may attract a few votes in the upcoming election whose impact will not last long in the lower house.

The former governor has been notorious for his bid to "purchase" the Diaoyu Islands, a move unveiled in April that inflamed the territorial dispute over the islands between China and Japan He resigned in late October to form his own national political party.

Meanwhile, Noda on Tuesday indicated his plan to dissolve the lower house during a parliament speech, yet the committee of standing executives of his ruling Democratic Party of Japan has officially expressed disagreement over his plan.

The message of the party's powerful figures was delivered to Noda by Azuma Koshiishi, the general secretary of the DPJ.

The Tokyo Broadcasting System said it is rare for the party's policymaking organ to challenge a party leader's plan.

There have been calls to boycott the lower house dissolution within the ruling DPJ, and the conflict continues to escalate, Japan's Jiji Press News Agency said.

Noda may face a challenge within his party if he continues to push for an early date to dissolve the lower house over objections from fellow party members, analysts said.

Lu Yaodong, director of the department of Japanese diplomacy of the Institute of Japanese Studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said Noda is indicating, without saying so outright, that his faith in his ability to maintain his position is shaky.

"The conflicting opinions within his ruling party need coordination, yet it remains to be seen how far they can go in coordinating," Lu warned.

In the latest Asahi Shimbun poll released on Tuesday, the approval rating for his cabinet slipped to a mere 18 per cent while the disapproval rating rose to a whopping 64 per cent.

An election defeat would mean Noda, who took office in September 2011, would become the sixth Japanese leader to leave the prime minister's residence after about a year in office, Agence France-Presse said.

Noda's party needs to make an early decision on dissolving the lower house, or it will face more challenges from minor parties, including Ishihara's Party of Sun, Lu added.

The second and third bolded parts are indicating that this new guy on the political scene is a hot-headed conflict-seeking dude. Last part may mean anything but it seems like the Chinese government is following the recent changes with attention. But overall, not exactly good news.
 
Japan Nears Recession Amid China Boycott

While the Chinese seem indeed to enjoy playing it rough with the Japanese to put it in nice words, it seems like the politicians there are slow at understanding what threat is in sight.

Summary: it seems like one big factor is that the Chinese are not so happy with the Senkoku islands (or common history of the two countries for evident reasons), blocks the entrance of Japanese goods, buy massive amounts of yen to keep it high and hurt Japanese exporters. Japanese politicians don't have a clue how to respond so far.

This is clearly economic war. And nobody has told China to reconsider their actions.

The only Politician who is likely to respond is Shinzo Abe, and it is clear that he is going to become Japans PM come December 16. However am afraid of what his plans are, the guy is a nut case in my opinion.
 
Bad news are really pouring:




http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=500912

Sony and Panasonic's credit rating is taken down fiercly. One of the main reasons: the strong yen. Again. I talked with a friend of mine who deals with currencies that Japan is threatened by massive debt and unemployement if their currency stays high. He told me there is no model to describe the currency fluctuations as of now. Nobody can tell for sure why the Yen is staying so strong. An enigma it seems.


Also:
Shares of Sony, Panasonic and Sharp sank to their lowest levels in more than 30 years in Tokyo this year as investors remain unconvinced the companies can rebound from mounting losses without hit products. The three companies combined are valued at $24 billion, compared with $528 billion for Apple and $192 billion for Suwon, South Korea-based Samsung.
I didn't bold the last words for decency. This is a slaughter.
 
It's all a plot by Disney to weaken Nintendo until they can buy them out.

That's m'theory and I'ma stickin' to it.

Disney buying Nintendo would be yet another brilliant move. I wouldn't be surprised if Disney tries this if the Wii U underperforms and Nintendo becomes affordable.
 
Japan Nears Recession Amid China Boycott

It seems like one big factor is that the Chinese are not so happy with the Senkoku islands (or common history of the two countries for evident reasons), blocks the entrance of Japanese goods, buy massive amounts of yen to keep it high and hurt Japanese exporters. Japanese politicians don't have a clue how to respond so far.

This is clearly economic war. And nobody has told China to reconsider their actions.



edit: there seems to be some political move right now in Japan:

New Japanese political party unveiled



The second and third bolded parts are indicating that this new guy on the political scene is a hot-headed conflict-seeking dude. Last part may mean anything but it seems like the Chinese government is following the recent changes with attention. But overall, not exactly good news.

Why doesn't Japan strike a deal with China about the islands and get it over with? Both countries agree that the islands are actually part of Taiwan. Split up the resources 33/33/34 and give ownership to Taiwan.
 
I thought that this was all about the carry trade?

Yen was 0% interest throughout most of last decade so a lot was borrowed internationally and put in currencies with higher interest rates. Now more major currencies are near 0% and doing things like QE so Japan can't really compete to devalue currency in the same way.

Germany's equivalent currency devaluation scam was the Euro and that looks close to collapse as well.
 
Doesn't Japan already have world highest gross debt, compared to GDP in the world? This whole crisis is fuel for Tōru Hashimoto's party and now they have announced collab with Sunshine Party. Kinda scary idea how Japan might be moving more and more to nationalistic right in the near future.

Why doesn't Japan strike a deal with China about the islands and get it over with? Both countries agree that the islands are actually part of Taiwan. Split up the resources 33/33/34 and give ownership to Taiwan.

Pride. Right wingers in Japan keep on going how the islands belong to them, and in popular polls chinese populus seems to be displeased that Chinese gov. hasn't acted more strongly in this case. Especially in China it would cause lot of criticism for the politics if they gave even an inch when it comes to the islands.
 
Why doesn't Japan strike a deal with China about the islands and get it over with? Both countries agree that the islands are actually part of Taiwan. Split up the resources 33/33/34 and give ownership to Taiwan.

National pride gets in the way of things, all sides involved have it.
 
Why doesn't Japan strike a deal with China about the islands and get it over with? Both countries agree that the islands are actually part of Taiwan. Split up the resources 33/33/34 and give ownership to Taiwan.

I don't think china officially recognizes taiwan as an independent entity.
 
I don't think china officially recognizes taiwan as an independent entity.
Hence the statu quo? If Japan has the suspicion that resources will only go in Chinese pockets, it would explain why they are not considering agreements of that sort. But in no way it would begin to explain why the government has bought the islands and publicly acknowledged it. Are the Japanese in power so hot-headed that are engaged in short-sighted muscle-showing strategy? Even in the case both armies enter military conflict, there is no way the Japanese may even stand a chance.
 
Why doesn't Japan strike a deal with China about the islands and get it over with? Both countries agree that the islands are actually part of Taiwan. Split up the resources 33/33/34 and give ownership to Taiwan.

You are apparently unfamiliar with the modern history of China.
 
When Brazilian officials said on the WTO the Chinese where devaluing the yun and demanded some counter measures everyone was hush hush because all countries want a piece of that pie
 
Isn't the Yen basically in deflation? Which is the economists nightmare. Since you basically can't do shit about it. You can lower the interest rates to 0%, but you can't go negative. Afaik Japan is 0% atm. So it's essentially free to loan money in Japan, but the people aren't taking it. The Yen is strong, but the Japanese people(which includes banks and investors) are not spending it at all. They're basically just saving it all up. Which basically kills cash flow, growth and productivity.

The US was in a state deflation as well during the Great depression(strong dollar while the economy was in shambles).
 
Doesn't Japan already have world highest gross debt, compared to GDP in the world? This whole crisis is fuel for Tōru Hashimoto's party and now they have announced collab with Sunshine Party. Kinda scary idea how Japan might be moving more and more to nationalistic right in the near future..

If only China will realize that.
 
The Yen has risen primarily due to a bunch of different factors (all of these are simplistic explanations -- interested people should look into each part more):

1. Carry Trade
Before the financial crisis, the Bank of Japan offered near-zero Yen lending rates. So, investors could borrow in Yen and reinvest elsewhere with higher interest rates, such as Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Brazil, etc. by selling their Yen for the relevant currencies. This pushed the Yen down even further, and with assets in the aforementioned countries becoming more valuable relative to their original currencies, the investors could reconvert their money back to the Yen, pay the loan off, and pocket the profits earned.

After the collapse of Lehman Brothers and the credit crunch that ensued, banks around the world lowered their interest rates, so investors decided to pull out of their local investments en masse towards safer assets, explaining why the Yen and U.S. Dollar, along with the Swiss Franc, surged to mega levels at the end of 2008, while the Euro, Pound, Aussie, Kiwi, Won, and virtually every other currency that wasn't Yen/Dollar/Franc or pegged to the USD fell massively within weeks.

So, it's very reasonable to say that the Yen was, in reality, artificially undervalued for many years. It was especially undervalued against the Pound in Euro from 2004 to 2008. 1GBP was ¥230 at its peak, while 1 Euro was ¥160. Ideally, $1USD would equal between ¥90 and ¥105...

2. Japanese Household Savings
I can't remember the exact amount, but the Japanese have an extremely high level of savings, which means their consumption levels are lower. If they would increase their domestic spending, the effect of the high Yen would be far less than what it is today. This issue leads to...

3. Deflation/Stalled Wages
Japanese prices have been in deflation/have lacked inflation for at least a decade, even before the Yen made imports far too cheap. Why? Because consumption levels are too low, and the bubble bursting in the early 1990s ensured continued frugality in preparation for another crisis (...such as the one that hit in 2008). As prices in Japan drop gradually, profits stall/drop in response, so wages do not increase. If wages don't increase, consumption cannot increase at a fast enough rate to offset deflation.

4. Demographic Uncertainty
Also referred to in terms of a "declining birthrate." High suicide rates in Japan and low birthrates are preventing the Japanese population from growing. There is also a lack of marked permanent immigration from other countries. While not a direct cause of the strong Yen right now, its effect can be seen in areas none other than game sales: with fewer young Japanese than ever, the potential audience for such games shrinks as a result. In other words, Japan cannot count on the population rising in order to increase consumption. Another reason Japanese feel need to save is because they're living longer than ever. Even with a high Yen, the Japanese food industry or anything else inelastic is in no danger of collapse like the manufacturing and electronics sector.

5. Japanese Dollar Reserves/Debt Ownership
Believe it or not, Japanese bonds are considered very safe investments. At least 90% of Japanese debt is owned domestically, so if the Japanese government were ever presented with a situation in which they couldn't pay, they can print the debt away or finance it with their huge dollar reserves.
 
Well, it looks like the Yen is finally starting to weaken somewhat in response to Shinzo Abe's victory at the recent Japanese elections. It broke 85 Yen to USD and 112 Yen to the Euro recently. I'm sure this is welcome news to Japaneses exports like Sharp and Sony.

It will be interesting to see whether this is a blip or if it will hold in the long term.
 
Well, it looks like the Yen is finally starting to weaken somewhat in response to Shinzo Abe's victory at the recent Japanese elections. It broke 85 Yen to USD and 112 Yen to the Euro recently. I'm sure this is welcome news to Japaneses exports like Sharp and Sony.

It will be interesting to see whether this is a blip or if it will hold in the long term.

Depends. Aggressive currency devaluation is a game that everyone is playing now so I don't see why the Dollar and Euro would not fall lower again.
 
Might have to cancel my trip to Japan in April, spending there will be crazy expensive.

I wanted to go to TAS in January, but the Yen has been killer versus the Canadian dollar.

I've also been putting off buying more expensive import car parts for a while since the exchange rate is terrible for me...
 
90.66 yen to the US Dollar now. It's getting better.

And the good news to go along:


Toyota Again World's Largest Auto Maker
Toyota sold 9.75 million vehicles in 2012, a 23% gain in global sales that allowed it to reclaim the top spot from GM and fend off Volkswagen AG, VOW3.XE +1.38% as had been widely expected. Toyota's U.S. rival sold 9.29 million vehicles in 2012, while the German auto giant sold 9.07 million.

Nissan Motor Co. 7201.TO +2.40% and Honda Motor Co. 7267.TO -0.58% also logged record sales as Japan's motor industry gave yet another sign of its resurgence from the supply-chain disruptions of the previous year caused by the earthquake in Japan and flooding in Thailand.
That's very encouraging. At least on the car making side, they are still untouchable in terms of volume.



If the link to the Yen is apparent it seems, no mention has been made about the domestic/international sales ratio:
Those big sales gains, coupled with a sharp weakening of the yen against the dollar late in the year, may bode well for the profit picture at Japan's auto makers, though the continuing impact of Tokyo-Beijing tensions on demand in China is difficult to predict. A weaker yen increases the value of dollar-denominated sales overseas and makes Japanese exports more competitive abroad.
Sales of Japanese brands plummeted from mid-September last year amid mounting political tensions between Beijing and Tokyo. While Japan's auto makers say demand has begun to recover, the spat has been a major setback in efforts to match U.S. and European rivals with greater market share in China.

Toyota didn't provide a breakdown by country Monday, but it previously said it wouldn't likely meet an initial 2012 goal of selling 1 million cars in China. That would be 10% of the company's midterm goal of selling 10 million vehicles annually world-wide.
China's resolve is really hurting Japan. Those guys know how to war.
 
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