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[Rocket Punch]

Because some of us would like Nintendo out of the hardware business, thankyouverymuch. They've been uniformly terrible at it. Sony and MS take losses and push the envelope. Nintendo aims for cheap and underwhelming hardware, ignores an online strategy until the last minute, and emphasizes control gimmicks over serious advances like hard drives and full-on broadband support. They just aren't particularly forward-minded -- much like their nostalgia-addled fans.

Funny, I thought we were in this hobby for the GAMES.

 

[Argyle]

Funny, I thought we were in this hobby for the GAMES.

Of course! Their games would be better on superior hardware.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I quite like Nintendo's games. Can't wait to play 'em on better hardware.

 

[jarrod]

Of course! Their games would be better on superior hardware.

Which Sony usually doesn't provide. PSP being the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Drinky Crow]

PS2 was at least an attempt to push the envelope, even if they missed the mark in a few ways -- namely image quality. It certainly spanked the Dreamcast. The PSOne was certainly more forward-minded than the Saturn, and even held its own well against the horribly designed N64.

 

[Speevy]

I quite like Nintendo's games. Can't wait to play 'em on better hardware.

Name some Nintendo games released in the past 5 years that you like. I find this hard to believe.

 

[chespace]

Drinky beat me to the eloquent refutation of gamergirly's rant, which is good, since it saves me a whole lecture on supply and demand. However, I have to add one more thing, since I'm getting REALLY sick of this lousy "since it didn't sell out and Sony said it was going to sell out, PSP is a failure!" argument.

To be blunt, you -- and many others -- are guilty of taking a statement at face value, and it makes you look increasingly dumb the more times you repeat it. Just because Sony SAID "we expect to sell a million units in a couple of days" doesn't mean that they EXPECTED to sell a million units in a couple of days. As a company, you make those statements to create a product image in the minds of the consumers -- "this thing is HOT, it's going to be RARE, and if I don't buy it right now, I could miss out" -- to help stimulate sales. The series of media articles about the PSP trumpeting it as a hit are also designed to cultivate this image, and I expect it will pay dividends. I find it extremely hard to believe that Sony would ACTUALLY discuss the details of their business plan in the press -- their actual projections and break-even criteria are closely guarded secrets, I'm sure.

Oh, and by the way, this kind of approach is Marketing and Sales 101 in plenty of other areas, not just videogames. Since you're probably 13 or 14, you haven't bought a car, but when you do, you'll hear the salespeople say the exact same thing to you when you wander onto the car lot and say you're "just looking around." They will try to tell you that your model of choice -- even the exact car -- is "very hot right now" and it's been "tough to keep them in stock." Mysteriously, "someone was just looking at that very car this morning" and "said they'd be back later." The goal is to convert interest into a sales, preferably based on impulse since the more you think about ANY purchase, the more hesitant you get.

I do have to add one more thing to the whole supply-and-demand topic, since I really think you DON'T understand how it works, no matter what you claim. Bitching about the price is a red herring. It has been shown throughout history that you can command a premium price for an item if you have a premium brand, and that is EXACTLY how Sony is trying to be perceived. The iPod is STILL far more expensive than the PSP, and Apple is selling a metric fuckload of them. Why? Because iPods are seen to be "worth it" by consumers. When you can change the terms of the debate from "X is so much more than Y, which does more or less the same thing" to "buying X is worth it because it's so much better than Y," then you have largely beaten the price game.

Finally, you can save your accusations that I'm a "Sony fanboy." I have a very clear bias, and it's against people who don't think before they start running their mouth. But I will say this -- reading through a lot of threads on the Gaming Forum these days, it's usually a good bet that the truly stupid posts come from people with Nintendo-themed avatars or usernames. But, you know, that's anedoctal evidence, and I'm sure it doesn't MEAN anything, right?

Since this post was at the bottom of a page, I thought I'd bump it in case all the delusional Nintendo fans missed it. Nice one, jinx.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I actually DEFENDED Mario Sunshine against the critics. I loved Fire Emblem and Advance Wars 1/2 unconditionally. I'm a big ol' fan of the Zelda series, and I enjoyed WW despite its shortcomings. Loved Minish Cap and champion the Oracle titles every chance I get. One of my most anticipated games for this year is Fire Emblem GC. I enjoyed Pikmin 2 as well, and I'm certain I'll dig Paper Mario 2 when I get a chance to really put some time into it.

WHAT?

(you do realize, BTW, that I love NO game unconditionally, largely because I'm over the age of thirteen)

 

[BorkBork]

Two things I'm wondering:

PSP vs. IPOD
Since the (crappy imo) IPOD shuffle was just recently released, does anyone think that will or has cut into the psp sales? Casuals just seem to suck up anything Apple throws out there with the IPOD name on it, and since both the shuffle and the PSP sport the sleek sexy design thing, I would be interested to see how the shuffle's been selling in comparison.

PSP holiday sales
No doubt it will sell well during launch and sell out the million within a month, but what about the traditional Thanksgiving/Christmas rush? Will the tech saavy hardcore gamers and the graphic whores be focused on the next new thing, the X-Box 360? It would be really really bad for Sony if the PSP gets its technical spotlight stolen by the 360. Traditionally Nintendo's handhelds are king during this time, on par or even topping PS2 sales and with a timely release of Pokemon whatever color they're on now, I don't see that changing. Anyways, this is all pretty interesting stuff.

 

[Rocket Punch]

PSP came out in the middle of the week on a workday. Easter week for that matter, when in Canada that reduces shopping days to 2 days. I can't understand how anyone can possibly claim success or failure of the PSP launch on 1-3 days performance at retail. If anything it says a lot about the people in this forum. Maybe it should be renamed GAF-ADD.

 

[Speevy]

I actually DEFENDED Mario Sunshine against the critics. I loved Fire Emblem and Advance Wars 1/2 unconditionally. I'm a big ol' fan of the Zelda series, and I enjoyed WW despite its shortcomings. Loved Minish Cap and champion the Oracle titles every chance I get. One of my most anticipated games for this year is Fire Emblem GC. I enjoyed Pikmin 2 as well, and I'm certain I'll dig Paper Mario 2 when I get a chance to really put some time into it.

WHAT?

None of the games you listed fall into the category of "would be better with different hardware". It sounds like you're just fond of making excuses for Nintendo's unwillingness to push the envelope technically. See, I love Nintendo despite that, but I'm a realist. A game's use of hardware is only as good as the developer wants it to be. I want all Xbox games to have huge, free-roaming worlds and massive space for customization, as well as custom soundtracks. But since most exclusive developers don't give me these things, I'll have to settle for what's there. No, there would be absolutely no difference in any of those games if they were on the PS2, because EAD and Intelligent Systems don't care. Well, I take that back. Image quality might suffer, as you pointed out.

 

[Ranger X]

What's hitting me here is that there's no real way to know if it's Drinky or Girly that is spot on. It's 2 different point of view that are valid right now imo.
Nobody knows really if it's that there's alot more unit than the demand on the market or if it's because it's not selling well. Personally i'm a bit more on the side "there's more units than the demand" because if i check at the Japanese launch of the PSP, it didn't sell as many units as the DS so i suppose it's going to be similar here.

 

[FartOfWar]

Great post jinx.

From Age of Propoganda:

Potatoes have not always enjoyed the popularity that they do today. In the late 18th century, the French believed that potatoes caused leprosy; the Germans grew spuds only for cattle and prisoners; the Russian peasant considered them to be poisonous. All that changed when Catherine the Great, ruler of Russia, cleverly ordered fences built around potato fields. Large notices were posted warning the populace not to steal potatoes. The potato became a staple of the Russian diet, and the rest is history.

We tend to use a simple rule, or heuristic: If it is rare, if it is unavailable, it must be valuable. This is what lies beneath research findings showing that female college students believed that a scarce pair of nylons should cost more than a readily available pair, that children rated cookies in scarce supply as more desirable than the same cookies in abundant supply, and that, in response to news of an upcoming shortage of imported beef, orders by supermarkets increased to between two and six times the normally ordered quantities. Given the ease with which information about scarcity can be manipulated, the propoganda potential of this technique is nearly unlimited.

 

[Ristamar]

PSP vs. IPOD
Since the (crappy imo) IPOD shuffle was just recently released, does anyone think that will or has cut into the psp sales? Casuals just seem to suck up anything Apple throws out there with the IPOD name on it, and since both the shuffle and the PSP sport the sleek sexy design thing, I would be interested to see how the shuffle's been selling in comparison.

Eh, is there really a PSP vs. IPod issue? Maybe I'm being naive, but I can't envision a fuck ton of people primarily in the market for a portable music player considering the PSP as a viable alternative. As versatile, sexy, and powerful as it may be, it's still too damn big (for the respective market) and even the largest memory sticks arguably don't provide enough potential, convenient storage space.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I want all DS games to have meaningful uses for the stylus and an effective justifcation for the dual screen setup, as well as better wireless and microphone support. But since most exclusive developers don't give me these things, I'll have to settle for what's there. No, there would be absolutely no difference in any of those games if they were on the PSOne or similarly archaic hardware, because most developers don't care.

Fixed!

Man, you kids just don't see these coming, do ya!

Now that the glass table is out there, let's do the Rock Bottom: best-selling game on the DS? Mario 64 DS. What does the stylus add? Nothing. The three most anticipated games for the DS? FF3, Jump Superstars, and Pokemon. Is the stylus and dual screen really going to improve their playability as much as better graphics, high resolution, and analog control might? Let's find out, eh -- seems the games folks want the most have the LEAST dependencies on Nintendo's gimmicky hardware.

 

[jarrod]

PS2 was at least an attempt to push the envelope, even if they missed the mark in a few ways -- namely image quality. It certainly spanked the Dreamcast.

Relative to it's release timeframe, I'd say Dreamcast was really the most progressive next gen platform. Too bad it never got pushed to it's fullest potential, it's amazing to think it's only 1998 technology.

Sony pushing PS2 as a bandwidth monster did backfire somewhat. Thankfully for them, PlayStation's near monopolistic market dominace meant it really didn't matter in the end though. Despite the headache it caused for developers in general.

The PSOne was certainly more forward-minded than the Saturn, and even held its own well against the horribly designed N64.

Sure, Saturn was rooted in System 32 design before Sega R&D slapped that VPD2 into it. Nintendo made some rather boneheaded decisions with N64 too... though they really came around with GameCube, which is by a wide margin the most balanced and efficient console in history (even if NCL sat on it a year). NTD has some excellent engineers of their own, GameCube is really a testament of Nintendo's ability to craft competitive hardware despite the odds.

 

[Spike]

I quite like Nintendo's games. Can't wait to play 'em on better hardware.

Cube hardware is better than the PS2 hardware.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

Sony pushing PS2 as a bandwidth monster did backfire somewhat. Thankfully for them, PlayStation's near monopolistic market dominace meant it really didn't matter in the end though. Despite the headache it caused for developers in general.

If you think Playstation ever had near monopolistic market dominance then I suggest you go back all look up what monopoly actually means.

 

[Roland Hood]

'Never let others define your success'

 

[Drinky Crow]

Hey, in an engineering vaccuum, I like the GAMECUBE NINTENDO hardware. Hell, I even like the look. But if Nintendo had chosen to take a loss and actually incorporate some deeper features, it would've made a much bigger impact. I don't like it when companies don't give me EVERYTHING they can for their dollar and refuse to compete, choosing to rest on their software laurels instead.

 

[Ranger X]

I understand you point of view in this thread but there's something that seems wrong to me. You give the impression that hardware is mostly what matters. Explain to me what hardware really gives you.
Was there good games on the PSone? or the SNES? Nostalgie aside, is there good games that have been made in the past?

The hardware of a machine is not the number 1 thing that will give you good games really. Games quality depends ALOT more on the game designers and level designers + amount of money for their project imo.
If hardware was counting that much as you say, there's won't be any good games on other machines than the Xbox logically. And obviously no good games could exist on handheld because their hardware isn't much powerfull (especially gameboys).
What do you think about this seriously?

 

[Spike]

Hey, I like the GAMECUBE NINTENDO hardware. Hell, I even like the look. But if Nintendo had chosen to take a loss and actually incorporate some deeper features, it would've made a much bigger impact.

Deeper features? The only thing that the Cube lacks is a hard drive. Seeing that Sony has dropped it, and the lack of use of it in the Xbox other than a massive memory card, I don't really see how that's much of a loss for them.

 

[lexi]

Of course! Their games would be better on superior hardware.

The Xbox? There is nothing wrong with the Gamecube in terms of hardware, and we'll wait and see how Revolution stacks up before commenting on that particular area.

In short, your comment makes no sense.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Wyzdom, you're rattling off down some tangential path. My point is very simple: if Sony and MS take a loss on hardware trying to give me what they think is the best they can do (admittedly, Sony want a little too far out into left field with the PS2 hardware, but that was on their dime, not mine), why the hell can't Nintendo? As a gamer, I don't give a fuck about corporate profits. If you need money, make and relase more/better software and kiss all kinds of third-party ass.

 

[Link316]

None of the games you listed fall into the category of "would be better with different hardware". It sounds like you're just fond of making excuses for Nintendo's unwillingness to push the envelope technically.

the Fire Emblem and Wars series are examples of Nintendo unwillinglyness to push the envelope for games, they have been available in Japan since the Famicom but Nintendo was never willing to take a risk to release such niche games here, they probably would've continued to remain in Japan if Sony didn't pave the way and created a market for RPG/Strategy games here

 

[Drinky Crow]

Spike, so you're saying that your precious and innovative Nintendo could not have come up with a compelling use for an hard drive and an integrated broadband solution?

INTERESTING.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Maybe the PSP would have sold better if the launch lineup wasn't so mediocre. That's definitely why I haven't grabbed one yet. The pricetag isn't helping it either when you have to drop another $150+ just to get any decent use from it's videoplayback/mp3 functions.

 

[Ranger X]

Wyzdom, you're rattling off down some tangential path. My point is very simple: if Sony and MS take a loss on hardware trying to give me what they think is the best they can do (admittedly, Sony want a little too far out into left field with the PS2 hardware, but that was on their dime, not mine), why the hell can't Nintendo? As a gamer, I don't give a fuck about corporate profits. If you need money, make and relase more/better software and kiss all kinds of third-party ass.

True that but why should i care and who am i to tell "it's not the best Nintendo could have done"? The Xbox or the PS2 is the best Sony or Microsoft could have offered you? I really doubt that. Everything is planned to make money somewhere and that's only what counts for them. Any business must have administrators that knows what they are doing and if they don't then i don't care anyway.
My customer stand point is even more simple; i look at what is on the market - i make comparisons and try to have the more entertainment possible for my budget. Just as Sony or anybody else, it's just my money that matters really.
The only extra thing i look at is the "state" of their product on the market (and it fact, it's again a "my money" question). I have a PS2 regardless of it's hardware power, i own a PS2 because it's the machine the more popular = the one that will receive the more games = more mathematical chances for me to get good games = it's the console i get the most out of my money.

 

[Odnetnin]

Spike, so you're saying that your precious and innovative Nintendo could not have come up with a compelling use for an hard drive and an integrated broadband solution?

INTERESTING.

why bemoan something that isn't there in the first instance. If they had it and didn't capitalise, then there's a problem. It like looking for flaws when it isn't there. For what its worth, I don't think Nintendo made that BIG a mistake not going online. Going connectivity is where it all went a bit sour. Drinky, if you weren't so transparent in your Nintentroll efforts, maybe there can be a discussion. But I don't think its good enough that you've trolled them the last couple of days (locking threads to dissuade disscusion: Nintendogs).. posting really extreme views (obviously to get some nbots riled up) can be that easily remedied by a "oh... I like Nintendo." Please. Its pretty obvious you get off on the whole trolling mod angle. Its funny enough I guess but not really.

And you know what... Nintendogs could prove to be fun. Guess you won't know cause a) its not a game and b) its a Nintendo title c) its on a Nintendo handheld.

And the thing is... you try so hard to stir shit up. You do. :lol

 

[Spike]

Spike, so you're saying that your precious and innovative Nintendo could not have come up with a compelling use for an hard drive and an integrated broadband solution?

INTERESTING.

Firstly, don't ever put words into my mouth. I'm not a Nintendo fan. I'm not a Sony fan. I'm not a Microsoft fan. I'm a game fan. That's why I own all three and the DC.

You champion Sony, and sadly you look like a fool doing it. Where is Sony's compelling use for a hard drive or an integrated broadband solution? As far as I remember, these two peripherals didn't come with your precious system either.

One thing that I will give Nintendo props for, and it's certainly not from this gen, is for the ideas they had with the rewritable areas on the 64DD that they were talking about. That is what a HDD should do for gaming. Sadly, Sony and Microsoft both had access to these interviews and have a HDD for their systems, yet we have yet to see some of those concepts incorporated in games today.

 

[Pedigree Chum]

Maybe the PSP would have sold better if the launch lineup wasn't so mediocre

WHAT? WHAT?

Anyways the biggest downfall of the PSP launch is people's pre concieved notions about handhelds, thanks to Nintendo. PSP's just need to be seen and played by people more (Good job Sony, not having kiosks)...anyone that has seen/played my PSP wants one bad, before they didn't even have an interest in it.

 

[chespace]

And the thing is... you try so hard to stir shit up. You do. :lol

What's pathetic is that the Nintendo Defense Force takes up arms so predictably, knowing full well as you do, that he's stirring the pudding.

 

[Drinky Crow]

And the thing is... you try so hard to stir shit up.

I try? I SUCCEED, motherfucker.

 

[Drinky Crow]

See, Che, the thing is: either way, they lose.

They ignore me, and my remarks go unchallenged. They lose.

They argue with me, and they are inevitably forced to fall back on "you're a troll and we should ignore you." They lose again.

BUY A PS2!

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

WHAT? WHAT?

Sorry, neither Ridge Racer or Wipeout are going to get me to drop $250+ on a console alone. I'm not very interested in either of those, and the rest of the lineup? Put it this way. I'd rather be repeatedly kicked in the balls than pay $250 to play Lumines. So yeah, I'm holding off on my PSP purchase. Not buying a DS until Mario Kart hits. Definitely not buying a PSP until something grabs my interest.

 

[Odnetnin]

What's pathetic is that the Nintendo Defense Force takes up arms so predictably, knowing full well as you do, that he's stirring the pudding.

well... does it make it okay. trolling is trolling. I guess its okay cause oh wait. They're trolling Nintendo.

I'm just making a point. Its like "oh, I'm a mod.. I won't get banned... troll away". I know what he's doing. Doesn't mean I have to concur.

 

[Odnetnin]

See, Che, the thing is: either way, they lose.

They ignore me, and my remarks go unchallenged. They lose.

They argue with me, and they are inevitably forced to fall back on "you're a troll and we should ignore you." They lose again.

BUY A PS2!

for what its worth. MY ps2 is my most played console. Its the xbox that's the redheaded stepchild.

 

[Dilbert]

You champion Sony, and sadly you look like a fool doing it. Where is Sony's compelling use for a hard drive or an integrated broadband solution? As far as I remember, these two peripherals didn't come with your precious system either.

This discussion is only Sony versus Nintendo with respect to handhelds. From the console perspective, Xbox's inclusion of a hard drive and broadband support through Xbox Live were CLEAR discriminators in its favor.

I suspect that Drinky's point is aimed at the history. Gamecube and Xbox launched at roughly the same time, and each had to pick a strategy of how to compete with the entrenched Playstation 2. Xbox chose to take aim at the PS2's lack of graphical horsepower, lack of a hard drive (contributing to loading times), and lack of online strategy, all of which were perfectly logical responses. I'm still scratching my head at how Nintendo's Gamecube hardware design addressed any PS2 shortcomings, other than "you can't play Nintendo games on non-Nintendo hardware."

 

[Drinky Crow]

Where do I claim that Sony failing to capitalize on the hard drive is a GOOD thing? Fuck, I think it's pretty lame that they abandoned it this generation. Still, the pervasive presence of the HD in the Xbox allowed for large, fast saves for more complicated games like Fable and Morrowind, both of which could not be done on the PS2/GC. Beats a stylus and two screens for practical use, certainly.

I'm just lauding them for trying, which, poorly as they did, beats a conservative, profit-maximization strategy that comes at the expense of the developer.

Still, all of your collective whining aside: the point still stands that Nintendo is very good SOFTWARE developer and a shitty conservative hardware developer. Let 'em go third party and show Sony and MS how to use them hard drives, eh, since they can't be bothered to swallow the loss and stick one in their own rig!

 

[Drinky Crow]

jinx, the amazing research that gave us the uh, double-click shoulder buttons and the "C" label on a shitty second analog stick certainly justifies the year-plus later launch of the GC!

 

[soundwave05]

I wouldn't mind if Nintendo supported the PS3 actually.

It would effectively kill Microsoft and XBox 2.

But its never going to happen. PS4 maybe, but by then, who really gives a shit.

And still I do think touchscreen will be standard for portables beyond this generation, PSP2 included.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Wow just wow, and i thought it was bad when the DS launched LOL

 

[Ranger X]

Still, all of your collective whining aside: the point still stands that Nintendo is very good SOFTWARE developer and a shitty conservative hardware developer. Let 'em go third party and show Sony and MS how to use them hard drives, eh, since they can't be bothered to swallow the loss and stick one in their own rig!

Oops, i have to be in Nintendo side here. Conservative = not trying something new, not trying to change - to stay with the tried and true.
Even if it's not always good innovation and some stuff is not well implemented, Nintendo do try stuff. The DS is or course an example of that. Nintendo isn't conservative dude.
They risk alot, especially when it's badly implemented like the DS imo.

 

[WasabiKing]

Nice to see Drinky that BIG OL' STICK I sent him for XMas. Glad to see it's working quite well.

Some quick hits, take your shots, enjoy:

1. My sarcasm detector is often broken when attempting to use it on Wario64, but since he lives in my area, I had a hard time searching for a PSP yesterday. Went to to the bottom of the chain in Target and Wal-Mart, and to the upper crust of Best Buy and CompUSA, with no luck at all. Since I didn't feel like burning more than $10 in gas looking for the machine this week, I'm sure I'll have one in two weeks.

2. There may be a bunch sitting at your EB or GameStops, but I think it's a slight case of BUNDLE BACKLASH. How can you expect people to buy 2 horrible games and one subpar one and pay for the unit, especially for a new venture for Sony?

3. This thread was actually about Manhattan's Union Square selling out of PSPs, not the DS. And suddenly it's all about conspiracy theories against Nintendo.

 

[Suite Pee]

I bet you want Nintendo out of the hardware business so you don't have to buy so many consoles. Hell, I'm fine with owning all three of the current gen.

 

[ypo]

Here're some fun facts.

PS and Saturn were released around the same time. The PS was more powerful.
PSP and NDS were released around the same time. The PSP blows that piece of crap away.
XBOX came out 1 and half later than the PS2 and it's more powerful...wait you don't say. :lol

 

[chespace]

Nintendo fucked up on the DS just like they fucked up on the GameCube. The longer they remain in this generation, the more mindshare they'll lose with gamers both hardcore and mainstream. I hope they get it right with Game Boy 2 and Revolution. I'd hate to see them go the way of Sega, if only because Sega lost a lot of soul going software only.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Revolution will be the best hardware out of the three.
Drinky will fall in love with Nintendogs.
Some dude will flap about in the skies shrieking "Babylon has fallen!"
Armageddon will come.
You will all be judged most harshly for doubting Nintendo.

Exactly as I have forseen it!

 

[soundwave05]

Still, all of your collective whining aside: the point still stands that Nintendo is very good SOFTWARE developer and a shitty conservative hardware developer. Let 'em go third party and show Sony and MS how to use them hard drives, eh, since they can't be bothered to swallow the loss and stick one in their own rig!

:lol I love how you assume they'd support both.

So, uh, where's Soul Calibur III on the XBox again?

 

[Boom]

PSP's are a dime a dozen here in Denver. Which is nice as it allowed me to take my defective one back and get another easily.