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[Zaph]

sigh... you guys make it so hard to stay away

There's no ads on reddit, its entirely funded by voluntary donations. no one has to pay anything at any time. People can promote a comment by "giving them gold" basically paying $5 to say, I really like what this guy said, and think more people should see it, so its likely to rise higher when you filter by "best" or "top"

As for the public decency/park analogy argument, there are decency rules on reddit too, they weren't well defined before, they're getting better definition now but are still emerging.

That's not true at all. There are ads on reddit, just not a lot because they're advertiser kryptonite. They're trying to change this in an effort to become profitable (with Yishan claiming the board is pressuring them to change faster).

 

[Starfish Hero]

I see this whole thing as analogous to the magazine rack at the grocery store.

The magazine rack is r/all

You can ignore /all because it's filled with too much content you don't find value in.

There is shit littered in the magazine rack we know is lies, wrong, and deceitful. But we ignore it and move on with our lives and read the magazines we think provide value to our lives.

Maybe that's a shitty analogy and I misread the whole situation.

The problem is that no redditor is active in only one sub. You can skip over KKK Weekly easy, but it's kinda annoying to find frequent op-eds from Joe Racist in your gaming magazine.

 

[benicillin]

sigh... you guys make it so hard to stay away

There's no ads on reddit, its entirely funded by voluntary donations. no one has to pay anything at any time. People can promote a comment by "giving them gold" basically paying $5 to say, I really like what this guy said, and think more people should see it, so its likely to rise higher when you filter by "best" or "top"

As for the public decency/park analogy argument, there are decency rules on reddit too, they weren't well defined before, they're getting better definition now but are still emerging.

EDIT:

straight up wrong. Only those that want to contribute do. People agreeing with this line of thought are just outing themselves as literally knowing nothing about reddit and likely are judging it from other peoples vitriol, instead of their own experience. Because there aren't any ads on reddit....

What are you talking about? There are ads all over reddit.

 

[Trojita]

There's even a button on reddit right under the ads that says "Discuss this ad on Reddit" lol

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Listen if Reddit's owners, investors, and administration team wants to allow homophobic/racist/bigoted users to have their clubhouse on their site then just say so and own it.

But don't pretend this has anything to do with 'free speech' or 'healthy debate'. There is no debate. Most times you go there and question them on their views and force a debate the mods of those subs straight up ban you to keep you out the clubhouse.

 

[DrFaustPhD]

Reddit is looking for outside advertisement and other forms of monitization.

This is common knowledge.

This really shows you haven't been keeping up on what has been happening on Reddit. The new CEO literally spelled it out on this first AMA after Ellen Pao left.

Point me to it, I remember him literally saying they won't, and it will continue to be donation based.

 

[benicillin]

Point me to it, I remember him literally saying they won't, and it will continue to be donation based.

What are you talking about!

https://www.reddit.com/advertising

They already take ads!

 

[Trojita]

Listen if Reddit's owners, investors, and administration team wants to allow homophobic/racist/bigoted users to have their clubhouse on their site then just say so and own it.

But don't pretend this has anything to do with 'free speech' or 'healthy debate'. There is no debate. Most times you go there and question them on their views and force a debate the mods of those subs straight up ban you to keep you out the clubhouse.

Go to one of these groups meetings to try and argue why their belief in hate is wrong. Get kicked out by the groups organizer, with power given by the clubhouse owners, because you said something they didn't like.

Clubhouse later removes the hateful group.

Homophobe/Racist/Bigot: But my Freedom of Speech!

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Well the world is significantly less racist than it was in the 1960s, not because society deemed it so, but because the US passed a bunch of laws. So the top down approach not only works, it's the only thing that's been shown to work.

The top-down approach works to remove other top-down laws creating racism like segregation, implicit toleration of lynching, etc. The top-down approach works great if you define racism in the (imo, kinda BS) sociological definition that focuses on its effects, i.e. poverty, disenfranchisement, marginalization, etc. The top-down approach is the only thing that will lift black folk out of poverty, improve the infrastructure of the communities where they live, etc. That this has also seen a corresponding decrease in explicitly racist ideals ad values would seem to indicate that racism is an idea that emerges from things as they are, and that fixing "things as they are" is the best way to reduce racism and relegate it to the absolute margins, not going after the ideas, themselves. Banning racism is only going to make a virtual martyr of it, which will make it more attractive to those impressionable and immature enough to be affected by it.

 

[Armaros]

Point me to it, I remember him literally saying they won't, and it will continue to be donation based.

https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/3djjxw/lets_talk_content_ama/

Similar to NSFW, another type of content that is difficult to define, but you know it when you see it, is the content that violates a common sense of decency. This classification will require a login, must be opted into, will not appear in search results or public listings, and will generate no revenue for Reddit.

So unless he means they will refuse all donations (and gold) from those subreddits...

And reddit is not 100% donation based, get real, they would never survive at this point, as big as they are.

 

[Mimosa97]

I'm not really familiar with Holocaust denial numbers, I just wanted to make certain you weren't scoffing at millions upon millions killed. "Much more" referred to total camp victims, but I figure most deniers take exception with Jewish victim estimates. I mean, a million here or there and suddenly you're talking about real people!

Huh ? I think you've got me mixed me with someone else.

 

[morningbus]

Point me to it, I remember him literally saying they won't, and it will continue to be donation based.

Highlighted the front page without an ad-blocker for you:

 

[Trojita]

The top-down approach works to remove other top-down laws creating racism like segregation, implicit toleration of lynching, etc. The top-down approach works great if you define racism in the (imo, kinda BS) sociological definition that focuses on its effects, i.e. poverty, disenfranchisement, marginalization, etc. The top-down approach is the only thing that will lift black folk out of poverty, improve the infrastructure of the communities where they live, etc. That this has also seen a corresponding decrease in explicitly racist ideals ad values would seem to indicate that racism is an idea that emerges from things as they are, and that fixing "things as they are" is the best way to reduce racism and relegate it to the absolute margins, not going after the ideas, themselves. Banning racism is only going to make a virtual martyr of it, which will make it more attractive to those impressionable and immature enough to be affected by it.

You've lost me completely.

 

[cwmartin]

The problem is that no redditor is active in only one sub. You can skip over KKK Weekly easy, but it's kinda annoying to find frequent op-eds from Joe Racist in your gaming magazine.

That's a good point, I guess my analogy ignored the cross referencing and interaction that can happen between subreddits.

 

[DrFaustPhD]

Listen if Reddit's owners, investors, and administration team wants to allow homophobic/racist/bigoted users to have their clubhouse on their site then just say so and own it.

But don't pretend this has anything to do with 'free speech' or 'healthy debate'. There is no debate. Most times you go there and question them on their views and force a debate the mods of those subs straight up ban you to keep you out the clubhouse.

Huh? Why would you expect not to get banned if you're doing exactly the thing the FPH people got banned for? You may be in the moral right, but your describing the same action. The mods aren't owners of reddit on any level. Anyone can create a sub-reddit with its own set of rules and guidelines and instantly be a mod on that sub-reddit. The level and type of discussion is up to the creators and mods of the sub-reddit. You wouldn't go into a paleo diet subreddit and try to argue they should become vegetarian, would you?

 

[Fenderputty]

Highlighted the front page without an ad-blocker for you:

Lol

 

[DrFaustPhD]

Highlighted the front page without an ad-blocker for you:

Hah, I stand corrected. I guess I'm just so used to adblocker, and adblocker still showing the placement for ads on most websites.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

You've lost me completely.

My point is that racism continues to be potent and alluring because of the shitty state of the world with respect to race. It's an easier, simpler explanation/solution to the very glaring problems afflicting our society, and you'll always have some percentage of people that will gravitate toward what is easy and simple. Going after the racist ideas accomplishes relatively little in comparison to actually solving the problems that have been created by redlining, the racist drug war, etc.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

My point is that racism continues to be potent and alluring because of the shitty state of the world with respect to race. It's an easier, simpler explanation/solution to the very glaring problems afflicting our society, and you'll always have some percentage of people that will gravitate toward what is easy and simple. Going after the racist ideas accomplishes relatively little in comparison to actually solving the problems that have been created by redlining, the racist drug war, etc.

And yet, we've made huge strides in issues of race (though obviously many remain) over the last say, 50 years, mostly by saying (with legal weight) "You can't do X, Y, and Z anymore".

There will always be racists who want to discriminate against a black couple when buying a house, for instance. But now we've got laws that prevent that from happening, or deal with it harshly when it happens anyway. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't have those laws, and instead, that couple can just get fucked until we've fixed the underlying cause for the person selling their home being racist in the first place.

 

[Haly]

My point is that racism continues to be potent and alluring because of the shitty state of the world with respect to race. It's an easier, simpler explanation/solution to the very glaring problems afflicting our society, and you'll always have some percentage of people that will gravitate toward what is easy and simple. Going after the racist ideas accomplishes relatively little in comparison to actually solving the problems that have been created by redlining, the racist drug war, etc.

Reddit's administration can hardly handle kicking some racists and hecklers off their lawn. Do you really think they're equipped or competent enough to tackle the root causes of racism?

This whole debacle is ultimately about one site's policy regarding the content it hosts. Bringing all these high minded, vague, ideals about race and society just detracts from what the problem is, on a practical level: policy making and public perception.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

And yet, we've made huge strides in issues of race (though obviously many remain) over the last say, 50 years, mostly by saying (with legal weight) "You can't do X, Y, and Z anymore".

There will always be racists who want to discriminate against a black couple when buying a house, for instance. But now we've got laws that prevent that from happening, or deal with it harshly when it happens anyway. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't have those laws, and instead, that couple can just get fucked until we've fixed the underlying cause for the person selling their home being racist in the first place.

That's not really my argument, no. I'm talking specifically about racist speech and ideas, which I don't really think need to be specially banned in what is essentially a forum creation platform like Reddit, not racist actions, which of course people need to be protected against, legally.

Reddit's administration can hardly handle kicking some racists and hecklers off their lawn. Do you really think they're equipped or competent enough to tackle the root problems of race?

I'm not talking about Reddit's administration. I'm talking about the strain of thought in society that says "This shit is vile, let's kick it off Facebook/Reddit/whatever". I hate some of the shit that I see on Reddit, but I think giving it the boot would be a case of sweeping the dirt under the rug, not actually achieving anything.

 

[Valhelm]

And yet, we've made huge strides in issues of race (though obviously many remain) over the last say, 50 years, mostly by saying (with legal weight) "You can't do X, Y, and Z anymore".

There will always be racists who want to discriminate against a black couple when buying a house, for instance. But now we've got laws that prevent that from happening, or deal with it harshly when it happens anyway. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't have those laws, and instead, that couple can just get fucked until we've fixed the underlying cause for the person selling their home being racist in the first place.

I think most American change is cultural, though. The government didn't and doesn't persecute racists for their individual beliefs, but the extralegal constraints of society have made racism (at least in its most brutal and un-elegant form) no longer acceptable. Lee Atwater spoke about shifting racism decades ago.

You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can't say “nigger” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”

That said, a community as hateful as Coontown has no place on mainstream sites. I don't think banning the sub will make individuals "less racist", but will lead to many racists leaving Reddit now that their favorite board is gone.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Listen if Reddit's owners, investors, and administration team wants to allow homophobic/racist/bigoted users to have their clubhouse on their site then just say so and own it.

But don't pretend this has anything to do with 'free speech' or 'healthy debate'. There is no debate. Most times you go there and question them on their views and force a debate the mods of those subs straight up ban you to keep you out the clubhouse.

Exactly. There is no noble cause in this. They just want more activity on their site, ignoring the ramifications of allowing those users and subreddits.

And that's why I don't go on Reddit despite the great things in it. They willing allow hostility towards minorities.

 

[entremet]

Reddit's founders adhere to a Silicon Valley libertarianism that's been growing in the past five years.

 

[nilbog21]

it always shocks me when i read neogaf's views about reddit. a large number of people on here appear to have no idea how reddit works lol

 

[Kawl_USC]

That's not really my argument, no. I'm talking specifically about racist speech and ideas, which I don't really think need to be specially banned in what is essentially a forum creation platform like Reddit, not racist actions, which of course people need to be protected against, legally.



I'm not talking about Reddit's administration. I'm talking about the strain of thought in society that says "This shit is vile, let's kick it off Facebook/Reddit/whatever". I hate some of the shit that I see on Reddit, but I think giving it the boot would be a case of sweeping the dirt under the rug, not actually achieving anything.

And I think at least that sweeping it under the rug means it isn't tracked everywhere around the house (or is tracked around less) which is an improvement.

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

I thought those despicable subreddits were killed off? I checked on r/coontown and there are not any posts. Also looked if there was a r/spics nothing... Am I missing something?

 

[benicillin]

it always shocks me when i read neogaf's views about reddit. a large number of people on here appear to have no idea how reddit works lol

I know exactly how reddit works, but that doesn't negate my ability to criticize it's lax and irresponsible moderation and administration.

 

[TheHeretic]

I think most American change is cultural, though. The government didn't and doesn't persecute racists for their individual beliefs, but the extralegal constraints of society have made racism (at least in its most brutal and un-elegant form) no longer acceptable. Lee Atwater spoke about shifting racism decades ago.

That Lee Atwater quote is always used completely out of context, he was trying to make the opposite point that quote suggests in the entirety of the interview.

 

[Kawl_USC]

it always shocks me when i read neogaf's views about reddit. a large number of people on here appear to have no idea how reddit works lol

And it always shocks me when people who use reddit a serious amount can't cop to the amount of vile opinions that are spewed on most defaults any time race, gender, minorities, etc are brought up. It's enough where this is a discussion that needs to be had.

 

[Kawl_USC]

I thought those despicable subreddits were killed off? I checked on r/coontown and there are not any posts. Also looked if there was a r/spics nothing... Am I missing something?

They are hidden away unless you make an account. And a handful were killed (FPH, an anti neogaf subreddit funnily enough, and like 4 other small subs) but most remain and are now hidden from those without accounts.

 

[entremet]

it always shocks me when i read neogaf's views about reddit. a large number of people on here appear to have no idea how reddit works lol

I think the main issues of contention is Reddit being the platform versus Reddit being "discussion forum"

It's not the latter at all.

It's discussion forum software, with Reddit hosting it.

I can start a subreddit right now.

It's Blogger for forums basically.

That said, I have no problems with people boycotting Reddit for their policies.

These subreddit are still being hosted by them and they can't relinquish responsibility and thus criticism about them.

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

They are hidden away unless you make an account. And a handful were killed (FPH, an anti neogaf subreddit funnily enough, and like 4 other small subs) but most remain and are now hidden from those without accounts.

Ahh I see, I don't have a reddit account.

 

[F0rneus]

Speaking of ads, the one I got on this page about cat food saying "Nurture their nature" was amazingly fitting. I wish I had capped it lol.

 

[DrFaustPhD]

And it always shocks me when people who use reddit a serious amount can't cop to the amount of vile opinions that are spewed on most defaults any time race, gender, minorities, etc are brought up. It's enough where this is a discussion that needs to be had.

But it really isn't as in your face as many on here are stating. I rarely see that crap, and when I do, its never at the top of the page, and the comment is usually filled with replies arguing against the asshole that have double the upvotes of the assholes comment... Maybe things were different a few years ago, but in my experience, being a relatively steady user for about a year, the only time it was truly common was during the FPH shit storm.

Youtube comments... now thats a cesspool of racism

 

[jem0208]

I've seen multiple posts from subreddits like /r/fatlogic make the front page since then. You're wrong.

/r/fatlogic is very different to FPH.

 

[Bubba_Sparks]

I don't even understand the debate? Why would you want these terrible hate groups associated with your website? Why would you want to provide a forum for them to discuss their hateful and destructive opinions? If you're the CEO of Reddit and presumably are against racism and hate speech, how do you reconcile that the company you own provides those people with a platform to continue hating?

 

[entremet]

I don't even understand the debate? Why would you want these terrible hate groups associated with your website? Why would you want to provide a forum for them to discuss their hateful and destructive opinions? If you're the CEO of Reddit and presumably are against racism and hate speech, how do you reconcile that the company you own provides those people with a platform to continue hating?

Reddit wants to be the internet itself. The internet itself is uncensored mostly.

They don't see themselves as a forum.

 

[Kawl_USC]

But it really isn't as in your face as many on here are stating. I rarely see that crap, and when I do, its never at the top of the page, and the comment is usually filled with replies arguing against the asshole that have double the upvotes of the assholes comment... Maybe things were different a few years ago, but in my experience, being a relatively steady user for about a year, the only time it was truly common was during the FPH shit storm.

Youtube comments... now thats a cesspool of racism

I mean again this is the point where different people are holding up their experiences and seeing different things. I will say I think it will be interesting if the Samuel Dubois case gains more traction/media attention to see Reddits general response. I will say the article posted yesterday about it had surprisingly civil, empathetic comments.

And as far as it not being at the top of the page, then I guess as long as minorities just browse the top two comments they are free to enjoy default subs without being bombarded by shit.

 

[diffusionx]

And yet, we've made huge strides in issues of race (though obviously many remain) over the last say, 50 years, mostly by saying (with legal weight) "You can't do X, Y, and Z anymore".

There will always be racists who want to discriminate against a black couple when buying a house, for instance. But now we've got laws that prevent that from happening, or deal with it harshly when it happens anyway. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't have those laws, and instead, that couple can just get fucked until we've fixed the underlying cause for the person selling their home being racist in the first place.

Well, not selling a black person a house, or stopping a black person from voting, or underfunding a black school, or a cab driver not picking up a black person, is a deliberate action. You can pass a law saying that person can't do those things. But you can't tell those people to not be racist, to think racist things, to say racist things.

 

[benicillin]

I don't even understand the debate? Why would you want these terrible hate groups associated with your website? Why would you want to provide a forum for them to discuss their hateful and destructive opinions? If you're the CEO of Reddit and presumably are against racism and hate speech, how do you reconcile that the company you own provides those people with a platform to continue hating?

Because muh "free speech" says the white silicone valley libertarian. Remember, this is a site that for years hosted a repository of sexually suggestive images of kids under the age of consent that only relented and banned the sub when Anderson Cooper exposed it to the world as the shithole it was.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Huh? Why would you expect not to get banned if you're doing exactly the thing the FPH people got banned for? You may be in the moral right, but your describing the same action. The mods aren't owners of reddit on any level. Anyone can create a sub-reddit with its own set of rules and guidelines and instantly be a mod on that sub-reddit. The level and type of discussion is up to the creators and mods of the sub-reddit. You wouldn't go into a paleo diet subreddit and try to argue they should become vegetarian, would you?

Which is fine but then the owners of Reddit shouldn't claim it's about discourse and debate when the mods of those racist/homophobic/bigoted subreddits can and do ban anyone that disagrees with them.

That's all. That's not about debate. Healthy or otherwise. It's a clubhouse. For anything. Including hateful bigots. They should just own it.

Well, not selling a black person a house, or stopping a black person from voting, or underfunding a black school, or a cab driver not picking up a black person, is a deliberate action. You can pass a law saying that person can't do those things. But you can't tell those people to not be racist, to think racist things, to say racist things.

Agreed. But a private website can decide not to allow racist things to be said on their website. Since they do I think it's a valid point of criticism of Reddit.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Well, not selling a black person a house, or stopping a black person from voting, or underfunding a black school, or a cab driver not picking up a black person, is a deliberate action. You can pass a law saying that person can't do those things. But you can't tell those people to not be racist, to think racist things, to say racist things.

No one is saying you can. What I'm saying is that the actual effect of those laws is that it has made racism and racist actions less and less tolerable, and thus retarded the growth of this kind of thinking.

As someone mentioned before, when you've got new users, especially younger ones, joining reddit and seeing not just an awesome site full of countless great things, but also the kind of virulent shit spouted by the subs in question, and their users in other places, you've got what I would argue is an influence that can be nipped in the bud by simply not having those forums be part of your site.

 

[jstripes]

Reddit's founders adhere to a Silicon Valley libertarianism that's been growing in the past five years.

The last 5 years?

If you've been going to Slashdot long enough, you know that Libertarian streak has been there for a very long time.

 

[diffusionx]

No one is saying you can. What I'm saying is that the actual effect of those laws is that it has made racism and racist actions less and less tolerable, and thus retarded the growth of this kind of thinking.

As someone mentioned before, when you've got new users, especially younger ones, joining reddit and seeing not just an awesome site full of countless great things, but also the kind of virulent shit spouted by the subs in question, and their users in other places, you've got what I would argue is an influence that can be nipped in the bud by simply not having those forums be part of your site.

A kid that is impressionable to white supremacists isn't getting anything on reddit they aren't getting somewhere else, almost certainly in their household. I was exposed to Stormfront as a young person and laughed at it.

 

[Kawl_USC]

A kid that is impressionable to white supremacists isn't getting anything on reddit they aren't getting somewhere else, almost certainly in their household. I was exposed to Stormfront as a young person and laughed at it.

Well if I'm getting exposed to asbestos at my job already might as well say screw it and forget any precautions when handling it ever again. I mean hell I've already been exposed.

 

[Valhelm]

That Lee Atwater quote is always used completely out of context, he was trying to make the opposite point that quote suggests in the entirety of the interview.

How so?

 

[benicillin]

A kid that is impressionable to white supremacists isn't getting anything on reddit they aren't getting somewhere else, almost certainly in their household. I was exposed to Stormfront as a young person and laughed at it.

Clearly you're right and groups like SPLC who research and study hate groups are wrong.

 

[Haly]

A kid that is impressionable to white supremacists isn't getting anything on reddit they aren't getting somewhere else, almost certainly in their household. I was exposed to Stormfront as a young person and laughed at it.

Beliefs and values, regardless of how insane, toxic or irrational they are, are strengthened by consensus (or the appearance of consensus). It's one thing for a kid to be raised in a racist household and a whole other thing for that same kid to be raised in a racist community, or city, or country, or society. Why do you think there's such a severe political divide between urban and rural America?

That's what these hate forums create: the sense of community without being shackled by geographic distance or dearth of numbers

Do you really not see this? We didn't have this problem in the same degree in the 90s, or even in the 00s. It was out of the limelight, the racists and hateful individuals of America were separated from each other by vast tracts of lands. But now they have a way to overcome those obstacles, to create a single, cohesive voice where there wasn't any before, and it's through shouting and screaming as a group that they're able to perpetuate their ideas.

For every person that reforms themselves as a result of actual discourse instigated by the mixing pot that is the internet, I can confidently say there are many more who simply reinforce their notions by surrounding themselves with people who agree with them. Just look at what happens on Facebook, in Youtube comments, on Twitter. Echo chamber after echo chamber of hate and racism where discourse is impossible because the people there weren't interested in discourse in the first place.

That's what Reddit is. Hell, one of the main features of the site is the universal ability to downvote dissenting opinions into oblivion. How can Huffman say this with a straight face?

Horrible, actually, but I don't think you can win an argument by simply silencing the opposition.

The mechanics of the site literally contradicts with what he says.

 

[GeordieMark]

What kind of people wouldn't find the debate on black people being human offensive?

The people who visit r/coontown