The Horror the horror
Banned
What we know of Mario Kart 8 is very little and therefore it should be disqualified as an example in support of the Gamepad's marginalization or removal.
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The Wii U Debacle: Should Nintendo Abandon the Wii U Game Pad?
- Thread starter Metallix87
- Start date
- Status
What we know of Mario Kart 8 is very little and therefore it should be disqualified as an example in support of the Gamepad's marginalization or removal.
Haunted
Member
I think the gamepad is great. It's one of the key differentiators of the system compared to the competition. Strip that away and you're left with something completely underwhelming.
I think game prices is an area they could make big strides in. 60 for a WiiU game that's technically on par with PS360 games and inferior to PS4/PC games is not a good value proposition in the eyes of the consumer, regardless if it's got Mario on the box or not. Then you look at the digital side and you see that the WiiU has less games and less demos on the eshop after a year on the market compared to the PS4 at launch, you see the WiiU prices and compare them to any of the various digital stores on PC (especially during sales) and it just saps the will to support such pricing structures right out of you. Prime examples of putting making shareholders and analysts happy over making your audience happy.
I think this strategy Iwata recently talked about, of Nintendo trying not to devalue their titles and keeping their prices high at all costs is absolutely backfiring on them. It is literally the worst thing they could do if they want to increase the appeal of the system.
Do you think the Humble Bundle would be as successful if it were 50 minimum? Do you think Steam would be as big and ubiquitous as they are if the maximum discounts they allowed during Steam sales would be 20% off?
European eshop, full price for Nintendoland a year after launch. I rest my case.
I think game prices is an area they could make big strides in. 60 for a WiiU game that's technically on par with PS360 games and inferior to PS4/PC games is not a good value proposition in the eyes of the consumer, regardless if it's got Mario on the box or not. Then you look at the digital side and you see that the WiiU has less games and less demos on the eshop after a year on the market compared to the PS4 at launch, you see the WiiU prices and compare them to any of the various digital stores on PC (especially during sales) and it just saps the will to support such pricing structures right out of you. Prime examples of putting making shareholders and analysts happy over making your audience happy.
I think this strategy Iwata recently talked about, of Nintendo trying not to devalue their titles and keeping their prices high at all costs is absolutely backfiring on them. It is literally the worst thing they could do if they want to increase the appeal of the system.
Do you think the Humble Bundle would be as successful if it were 50 minimum? Do you think Steam would be as big and ubiquitous as they are if the maximum discounts they allowed during Steam sales would be 20% off?
European eshop, full price for Nintendoland a year after launch. I rest my case.
A bit better - for now. But that shouldn't be the actual goal.
The gamepad is no Virtual Boy.
And 3DS taught us that it is possible to change it w/o dumping it. Just release games that everyone wants to play.
Metallix87
Member
Wii U can easily get downgraded ports from X1 and PS4. Don't be silly. The hardware isn't THAT weak.
It won't, though, because no one wants to develop or port games to such a sales failure.
Metallix87
Member
What does this even mean? No, it's not some random experimental device. It's Nintendo's main console.
Interceptor
Banned
Ok let´s do this again. Slowly.
For those who just see this overused picture but don´t know anything about the system:
Just a Honk right? The game would be even better without it!
Wrong. First: This is only one of two possible screens you can display on the pad while playing Mario Kart, but i guess the other one wouldn´t make such a nice agrument on Forums. Other options you don´t see:
9-axis steering which is much more accurate than Wiimotes or sixaxis motion control options.
Off-TV play. Which is an OS feature and counts for almost every game.
Miiverse integration. Of course this would be possible without the pad. You would just loose the option to draw. And write. And to use the touchscreen as a keyboard. But hey who needs this.
A decent Internet Browser while using the game. No, i won´t browse with a analog controller.
A Mic. Yes, there is a mic in the pad.
But maybe i am wrong and it´s just a Honk button.
For those who just see this overused picture but don´t know anything about the system:
Just a Honk right? The game would be even better without it!
Wrong. First: This is only one of two possible screens you can display on the pad while playing Mario Kart, but i guess the other one wouldn´t make such a nice agrument on Forums. Other options you don´t see:
9-axis steering which is much more accurate than Wiimotes or sixaxis motion control options.
Off-TV play. Which is an OS feature and counts for almost every game.
Miiverse integration. Of course this would be possible without the pad. You would just loose the option to draw. And write. And to use the touchscreen as a keyboard. But hey who needs this.
A decent Internet Browser while using the game. No, i won´t browse with a analog controller.
A Mic. Yes, there is a mic in the pad.
But maybe i am wrong and it´s just a Honk button.
Calamari41
41 > 38
It's all about the games and the visibility of the games.
Think about it. Imagine a Wii 2 closer to PS4/XBone level of power (and close to the same price as the Wii U due to the scrapping of the pad) which launched this last summer with all of the major games released from last Fall until now (notably including NSMBU, Zombi U, Lego City, Monster Hunter 3U, Game & Wario, Pikmin 3, Blacklist Best Edition, Rayman Legends exclusive, Wonderful 101, and whatever other third party games would have existed). Anybody who could complain about that launch lineup would never be in the market for a Nintendo console in the first place. Like, ever.
Then from launch in say July or August until Spring 2014 we would have Wind Waker HD, Sonic, Wii Sports Club, Wii Fit U, Mario 3D World, Mario & Sonic at Sochi, DKC, and Mario Kart. All of those are just the exclusives. Take any of the games you want out of the launch lineup and spread them around if you want, too. Hell, take NSMBU out completely and release it in the middle of 2014 to make a seamless flow of hits into the Fall 2014 release schedule. Note that none of the games I listed are pipe dreams, rather they are all games that have already released or will be releasing soon for the system.
The difference between this and what actually happened is that you skip out on literally ten and a half months of incredibly negative media attention. In my mind, the wasted year is what is killing this console right now. Can Nintendo release and market enough games in enough time to get the Wii U out from under this oppressive cloud of negativity? We will know by the time Mario Kart's numbers are reported. My guess is no.
Either way, in hindsight, I do believe that it would have been better to keep the console off the market for half a year rather than throw it to the wolves and let it get ripped to shreds instead.
Think about it. Imagine a Wii 2 closer to PS4/XBone level of power (and close to the same price as the Wii U due to the scrapping of the pad) which launched this last summer with all of the major games released from last Fall until now (notably including NSMBU, Zombi U, Lego City, Monster Hunter 3U, Game & Wario, Pikmin 3, Blacklist Best Edition, Rayman Legends exclusive, Wonderful 101, and whatever other third party games would have existed). Anybody who could complain about that launch lineup would never be in the market for a Nintendo console in the first place. Like, ever.
Then from launch in say July or August until Spring 2014 we would have Wind Waker HD, Sonic, Wii Sports Club, Wii Fit U, Mario 3D World, Mario & Sonic at Sochi, DKC, and Mario Kart. All of those are just the exclusives. Take any of the games you want out of the launch lineup and spread them around if you want, too. Hell, take NSMBU out completely and release it in the middle of 2014 to make a seamless flow of hits into the Fall 2014 release schedule. Note that none of the games I listed are pipe dreams, rather they are all games that have already released or will be releasing soon for the system.
The difference between this and what actually happened is that you skip out on literally ten and a half months of incredibly negative media attention. In my mind, the wasted year is what is killing this console right now. Can Nintendo release and market enough games in enough time to get the Wii U out from under this oppressive cloud of negativity? We will know by the time Mario Kart's numbers are reported. My guess is no.
Either way, in hindsight, I do believe that it would have been better to keep the console off the market for half a year rather than throw it to the wolves and let it get ripped to shreds instead.
Spieler Eins
Member
3DS was never that low. It launched prematurely and overpriced because of E3 feedback, however anyone could tell it would get back on track considering right from the first unveil on you knew that there was a big amount of unique 1st party software and even 3rd party exclusives on the way.
WiiU one year after it's release has been completely abandoned by all 3rd parties and Nintendo struggling to get fullfledged HD releases out the door. And it has a 100$ weight that served no purpose since ZombiU on top of that. (And clearly, Off TV doesn't seem to be that attractive... and could easily be kept even with gamepad removal)
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
It can be argued that people aren't buying it because of the gamepad. Gamers didn't want it when it was GC-GBA connectivity, PC gamers aren't rushing out to buy Nvidia Shield for streaming and I doubt Vita or Smartglass will be hugely popular for this function either. It's just not a function most people care about. In fact, I think Nintendo's handhelds would have been just as successful without dual screens as they were with it. People tolerate it because of the library of games, not because a second screen is a better experience.
That's the only real "next-generation" feature of all three consoles. Why would they drop it? Also, play WW and Deus Ex before making any more threats like this. You will feel silly.
Also, it's been less than a day since the ps4 launched. How is that people are already feeling they purchase is being threatened?
Also, it's been less than a day since the ps4 launched. How is that people are already feeling they purchase is being threatened?
Metallix87
Member
No, I won't feel silly, because I'm trying to be realistic and figure out how to fix the situation.
God Dayumm
Banned
Unfortunately taking out the gamepad basically means making a new console. It is not like the 3DS to 2DS transition, it's more like completely eliminating the second screen. Some games would be borked. That decision had to be made before launch, not now. The worst thing is that if Nintendo wants to support BC next gen, their next console will have to support the gamepad.
As other said, only more quality games can save the WiiU
As other said, only more quality games can save the WiiU
evilromero
Member
I think you're missing the point of this thread. No matter how much you like it, others have moved on.
I mean the pad is not a stinker that was DOA. It's actually awesome.
Well, not a lot games out there currently. Without those games, why should anyone buy it? Because it's cheaper now?
"Just selling a bit more and that's it" shouldn't be the goal. The pad is the defining characteristic of the Wii U. And it's great. If you remove it, it's just a box.
That's like saying: "well, the PS4 doesn't sell - we should downgrade the RAM and the GPU to save it. Remove 1080p support to save bucks."
If you are really considering this, they should rather completely scrap it and build some high powered PS4 rival without the pad. At least that would make some sense.
Saint Gregory
Member
I personally love my pad but it has to go, at least as a mandatory pack-in.
It's not proven itself to be a necessary game component and all it's done in confuse the market so far. It's very ironic that after establishing that traditional controllers were impeding new gamers from entering the market that they would follow up the Wii Remote with the most complicated controller ever designed.
I would imagine that much like the 2DS dropping 3D Nintendo is already planning how to divorce the Wii U from the pad and repackage it with the Motion+ (or something even better) next year. The pad won't disappear but it will become an optional add-on line the balance board.
It's not proven itself to be a necessary game component and all it's done in confuse the market so far. It's very ironic that after establishing that traditional controllers were impeding new gamers from entering the market that they would follow up the Wii Remote with the most complicated controller ever designed.
I would imagine that much like the 2DS dropping 3D Nintendo is already planning how to divorce the Wii U from the pad and repackage it with the Motion+ (or something even better) next year. The pad won't disappear but it will become an optional add-on line the balance board.
Manmademan
Member
No it can't, and yes it is.
The wiiu is capable of playing "cross gen" ports of games designed to run on the ps360. These cross gen games make sense to make because of the userbase of the ps3 and 360.
EA and Activision intend to make these for about 2 years before going full next gen and cutting support. At that point the wiiu is fucked, because it can NOT run next gen game assets or engines at all.
There is NO WAY to cut down games on the level of killzone, or infamous: SS to run on a ps3 or wiiu, and these games will be the standard in a year or two.
MarkMclovin
Member
No.
The console just needs rebranding. With a completely new and different name. It could do with some more games, but they'll come eventually.
Just rebrand the damn thing.
The console just needs rebranding. With a completely new and different name. It could do with some more games, but they'll come eventually.
Just rebrand the damn thing.
Haint
Member
The Upad has already killed the U. It's an expensive novelty that adds nothing of real gameplay/design value. It was conceived to take over Mom's iPad time while she watches TV so they could sell her $30-$50 Candy Crunch and Angry Bird ripoffs and it's clear that's never going to happen now.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
It can be argued that people aren't buying it because it's not light blue.
There's no proof there.
There is proof that those that have used the Gamepad are positive about it for the most part.
No one knows why the system isn't selling.
Nintendo is going to have to figure it out though.
Calamari41
41 > 38
The issue isn't so much that games aren't better with the gamepad. I absolutely love it, to the point where I can't imagine playing Wind Waker or Arkham Origins without it. The point is that Nintendo needs to sell consoles and games. 100,000 people playing Wind Waker with the gamepad and loving it is nice, but Nintendo needs 3,000,000 people to play Wind Waker.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
The WiiU has quietly transformed into a system worth owning almost without people noticing. Abandoning the gamepad is probably going to exacerbate the biggest issue it's facing i.e. extremely negative perception people have about it. Well, biggest not counting the PS4/XBO launches which they can't do anything about.
EXACTLY.
THAT's the problem. Not enough games.
The pad isn't the problem. The price is also not really the major problem.
evilromero
Member
If consumers want Mario 3D World enough they'll buy the system. Rebranding isn't a solution at this point.
Here's my take as a Wii U owner:
They should not. They should have. First of all, I love the Wii U GamePad, and I think everyone who blindly hates it because it "looks uncomfortable" is really missing out. It's a fantastic device that allows for some interesting possibilities. That said, it wasn't a smart thing to do in this day and age. As much as I hate to say it, people want "next generation graphics" more than anything else. Had they come out with a more powerful console with a Pro Controller instead (and called it something else, but that's an entirely different discussion), then I'm sure it could've been a success. Not only would it suit the needs of third party developers more, but it would also lower the cost significantly, making it a much more attractive console to the general consumer.
The problem is, people don't get the GamePad. Nintendo have done a poor job marketing the device. I got a Wii U because I wanted to play Nintendo's games, not because I thought highly of the GamePad or anything. That said, after having used it for games like Pikmin 3 as well as multiplayer focused games, I'm starting to realize how amazing second screen experiences can be. However, even as a hardcore Nintendo fan, this wasn't apparent to me before I bought the system - and that's exactly what the problem is.
So what can they do about it now? Not much, honestly. Removing the GamePad now would create even more confusion in the mainstream world and leave them without a USP. They would also have to rewamp their entire UI of the system and even some games. It's simply not worth it at this point. They have to ride it out and try again next time - and when that time comes, I'm hoping the GamePad becomes an optional device, because that's clearly the way to go. It would be a shame to see them discontinue it completely.
They should not. They should have. First of all, I love the Wii U GamePad, and I think everyone who blindly hates it because it "looks uncomfortable" is really missing out. It's a fantastic device that allows for some interesting possibilities. That said, it wasn't a smart thing to do in this day and age. As much as I hate to say it, people want "next generation graphics" more than anything else. Had they come out with a more powerful console with a Pro Controller instead (and called it something else, but that's an entirely different discussion), then I'm sure it could've been a success. Not only would it suit the needs of third party developers more, but it would also lower the cost significantly, making it a much more attractive console to the general consumer.
The problem is, people don't get the GamePad. Nintendo have done a poor job marketing the device. I got a Wii U because I wanted to play Nintendo's games, not because I thought highly of the GamePad or anything. That said, after having used it for games like Pikmin 3 as well as multiplayer focused games, I'm starting to realize how amazing second screen experiences can be. However, even as a hardcore Nintendo fan, this wasn't apparent to me before I bought the system - and that's exactly what the problem is.
So what can they do about it now? Not much, honestly. Removing the GamePad now would create even more confusion in the mainstream world and leave them without a USP. They would also have to rewamp their entire UI of the system and even some games. It's simply not worth it at this point. They have to ride it out and try again next time - and when that time comes, I'm hoping the GamePad becomes an optional device, because that's clearly the way to go. It would be a shame to see them discontinue it completely.
Ninja Scooter
Member
People speak like marketing and price drops are these magical elixirs that will fix everything. Like if you show a product on TV or drop the price low enough people just HAVE to buy it. The tech landscape is full of devices that had hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing budgets that still fell by the wayside. That saw countless price drops and still couldn't spur sales. Might I remind you guys that Blackberry had an ad during the fucking Super Bowl this year? At the end of the day you have to have a compelling product and the Wii U just isn't that. Tell me, what is the one game or software or function of Wii U that would cause a non-Nintendo fan to want one? Someone who has a passing (or no) interest in the latest Mario or Zelda game? Go ahead, I'll wait. Because if your answer is that it would only appeal to Nintendo fans then what we are seeing in terms of sales is exactly what the ceiling is for a product with that kind of consumer focus.
There is nothing realistic about dropping your main form of input, fragmenting your user base, making certain games unplayable without significant patches, completely overhauling the entire OS, and effectively making Miiverse useless. That will not fix any situation.
If they're going to do that, then they should just drop the Wii U altogether and make another console. You could, of course, argue that they should make a new console, but arguing that they should keep the console they have now and just get rid of the gamepad is absurd.
That will fix nothing. It will only hurt them more.
Spieler Eins
Member
None of the upcoming games seem to have the gamepad as a mandatory feature though. And even until now, there's barely any games that can't be played without it. So there's no reason to keep 100$ of dead weight on top of other problems such as a pathetic game lineup.
Clearly, there's not only ,,one'' problem with this console but several.
we do know that.
It's because there's not enough compelling software.
Where does the notion that we don't know why it's not selling come from?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Nintendo Land, was supossed to show all the cool things you could do with the pad: Result? no one cared and now is not even being bundled anymore. In great contrast to what Wii Sports did for the Wii. Is not really a problem with the software as much the concept behind the Wii U pad is faulty.
More demos is not gonna help, is time to admit the concept behind the pad is bad. And is not attracting people, Is a baggage for the console, as soon Nintendo drops it the sooner they can start building a GC 2.0.
A 150€/$ Wii U console would be really atractive, but it won't be possible with the Wii U pad.
Why?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I think this could well be true, and we'll find out next year. 2014 could be the most important year for Nintendo in the last two decades.
I agree with this. If you cut the gamepad, you're left with a comparatively (PS4/XB1/PC) under powered console with no real unique selling point. You'd have quality 1stP support from Nintendo, but that's about it. Some indies in there as well, sure.
Then the question of price comes into it. I'd not be willing to spend >$200 if it didn't have the gamepad. Again, because it'd be underpowered and not have a USP. I could just get a Wii for $100, know what I mean?
Short term it might be a bit better for some 3rd part developers to not have to worry about the gamepad, but longterm, if the Vita and MSFT Smart Glass can add meaningful functionality, multiplatform titles that included the Wii U could support the gamepad as well. I think for developers, a multiplat where all plats support some form of second screen is a better ROI. (I'd argue the same case for things like PS Camera and XB Kinect.)
I like the concept of the gamepad (and games that support it!), but if cutting it is a measure that Nintendo is entertaining, I'd rather have them kill the Wii U altogether, get aggressive with 3rd parties (including more indies) and partner with hardware and tech companies to deliver a machine that outperforms (or at least performs on par with) the PS4/XB1 in order to garner realistic third party support. But I know that won't ever happen.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Because it could become the "second console" for a lot of people. Is not gonna happen if only costs 100 less than a PS4.
zenosparadox
Member
I understand what you mean, but I think it is better for Nintendo to "wise up" sooner rather than later... It would have been nice if Nintendo could have knocked it out of the park on the first at bat, but it did not happen that way.
After the enormous successes of Wii/DS, Nintendo became arrogant and lazy (they admitted they did not think they needed marketing). I am glad they are again the underdogs in the console race because I think they make better decisions that way.
Calamari41
41 > 38
It's not just that. The lack of compelling software is why it didn't sell all year. There is actually a lot of compelling software right now. The reason it isn't and perhaps will continue to not sell well is because the Wii U name has been tarnished by that year without a major/marketed game release.
Yeah, I kind of agree. It is because of Nintendo's attitude that they thought they could release a system and just have it magically sell for a year based only on the name on the box. If they weren't arrogant, they would have seen that there weren't any games coming out until the end of Summer and acted accordingly. Hopefully this wakeup call will cause them to do something to save this system, or at least do a better job planning the next one.
This is also a part of the problem. A lot of people think the Wii U is bad just because people keep telling them that the Wii U is bad. But then once they get their hands on one they realize it's actually pretty cool.
Negative word of mouth can be pretty deadly.
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
I'm not a fan of the gamepad. Everyone I know that's a gamer doesn't like the gamepad. Guess, what? They aren't buying the system. You said most people that have tried the gamepad like it. Based on what? The vocal minority on NeoGAF? The one person I know besides myself that bought a Wii U isn't a fan of it either. No one in either of our families plays games on Wii U. I should note that both of us have kids that do a lot of co-op and they would both prefer it on 360 or PS3 w/split-screen. This is an area that Nintendo is now losing ground to - an area they've normally dominated.
evilromero
Member
What I hear from my buddies is they want a Mario 64 sequel with next gen graphics and as ambitiously open world as GTAV. Now, that goes completely against what Nintendo had moved towards in recent years so I can understand why some fans have abandoned the idea of 90s-era Nintendo game design. But with a developer like Retro Studios why WHY would you not task them with creating the most visually ambitious title possible? I think Nintendo sorely needs some of that visually punch to create buzz.
Well yeah once the reputation is established there's nothing but to ride it out.
GC was teh kiddiez
Wii was teh casualz
WiiU is teh loserz.
They can thank their 3rd party partners for that btw, they left them to hang on this one at every turn.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
When people play it love the thing, no, it's not time to admit the concept is bad.
People that play NintendoLand(just like people that use the Gamepad) more often than not really like it.
The system without the Gamepad is just another system and there are more technically better choices out there.
They can lower the price with the Gamepad still included(250$ though).
No need to scrap the only thing that makes it different than vastly more powerful consoles with tons of support.
evilromero
Member
So now 2014 is the most important year? What happened to 2013? To the chalkboard!
Ninja Scooter
Member
It might not happen regardless. It's not 2001 with the GC anymore, or even 2006 with the Wii. Now if you are vying for people's disposable income as a secondary console, you are competing with things like tablets and smartphones. Things that people are buying by the truckloads and that cost a few hundred dollars.
Mithos
Member
Yup, picked my Wii U up for the equivalent of 150 (half price) in July (1490SEK, was 2990SEK at release).
Wii U would be much more attractive if it were the same exact thing as Xbone/PS4 but with less third-party games, less features, and worse graphics. It's just like the Wii - if they had sold the console with a Classic Controller and had the Wiimote as an optional add-on, I'm sure hardcore gamers would have quickly flocked to the system.
Manmademan
Member
The list of why its not selling consists of a dozen reasons if not more. The price was too high for what it was. The Wii lost its audience and collected dust for years prior to launch. The tablet concept was years too late, everyone already owns one and can get a better tablet cheaper. The capabilities of the console are identical to consoles the core audience has owned for 8 years now. The name is confusing and it appears to be another Wii accessory. Marketing was extremely poor.
Really the only reason to buy one (exclusive titles by Nintendo) isn't that great, given the drawbacks. The casual audience is who this was targeted to and they have vanished, and this system clearly wasn't designed to convince core gamers to play.
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