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[brandonh83]

Not liking The Witch doesn't mean you're prone to like shit like Saw lol. I thought it was pretty boring and didn't add up to much for me but again I do think it's well made and written. If someone doesn't take anything personally from a movie they're welcome to think of it as a bad movie. But bad can mean many things and it doesn't necessarily mean something isn't well made. Not everyone is a film critic or appreciates the craft; I do, so while I don't love or even like The Witch that much, I'm not going to call it an objectively bad movie, but I can totally understand why and how others would, and that's valid.

I'm sure some would look down on me for loving The Babadook, but I have my own personal reasons for that as someone may have personal reasons for thinking The Witch is a bad film. As much as we can all and do sometimes disagree with one another, most opinions are subjective as fuck and most people criticize things based on their experience and not how well made it all may be.

I get what you're saying and I too wish more people were at least open minded and respectful of the craft, but having a bad or bored experience with a movie is going to more often than not lead to some negativity.

 

[Monocle]

I love you

I was actually thinking of editing away that post earlier, but reading it back, I realized I could have been more harsh. I find it so frustrating to see people trash great art just because they don't get it. (By "great art" I mean works of quality. Works that demonstrate technical excellence and the makers' surpassing care and skill, which produce a fine experience for a receptive viewer.)

Not liking The Witch doesn't mean you're prone to like shit like Saw lol. I thought it was pretty boring and didn't add up to much for me but again I do think it's well made and written. If someone doesn't take anything personally from a movie they're welcome to think of it as a bad movie. But bad can mean many things and it doesn't necessarily mean something isn't well made. Not everyone is a film critic or appreciates the craft; I do, so while I don't love or even like The Witch that much, I'm not going to call it an objectively bad movie, but I can totally understand why and how others would, and that's valid.

I'm sure some would look down on me for loving The Babadook, but I have my own personal reasons for that as someone may have personal reasons for thinking The Witch is a bad film. As much as we can all and do sometimes disagree with one another, most opinions are subjective as fuck and most people criticize things based on their experience and not how well made it all may be.

I get what you're saying and I too wish more people were at least open minded and respectful of the craft, but having a bad or bored experience with a movie is going to more often than not lead to some negativity.

I'm specifically talking about people who claim a movie has no merit just because they didn't like it, that the qualities other people praise simply aren't there.

The Saw part was me being petty because I get so nauseated when I see formulaic movies that aren't especially well made rake in millions and get a big thumbs-up from general audiences, while movies like The Witch that were insanely well crafted have limited appeal because they don't pander to and instantly gratify those same people. My frustration stems from having a deep appreciation for great craft and seeing people baselessly scorn it.

"I didn't like it" is not a sufficient reason to call a movie objectively bad. Bad means the movie fails on its own terms, it has no value, it's riddled with major flaws that fatally compromise its creative aims. If someone's going to level those charges at a movie that does not in fact have those issues, then they're in the wrong, and their opinion has less weight than an informed opinion.

Let me be clear: I'm not attacking anybody's right to feel how they feel, so far as that concerns them as an individual. I'm saying that if someone insists on projecting their bad experience on a movie's actual qualities, which are not dependent on anyone's feelings, they've overstepped the boundary of reasonable criticism and started down the thorny path of scapegoating the movie when in fact they weren't attentive or informed enough, or maybe just weren't in the right mood, to get it.

I didn't enjoy Taxi Driver very much at all. It didn't entertain me or leave me with any agreeable feelings, to be honest. Yet I was able to recognize that it was well made, and that my impression was my problem, not the movie's. I as a viewer wasn't in the right headspace to feel what so many others feel about Taxi Driver. It was not for me to say "Boy howdy, Scorsese laid a real fat turd there. People liked that awful movie? Total waste of two hours."

 

[Pau]

Watched this last night. I thought it was really well done and I loved the setting.

Spoiler

It was kind of weird to see witches played so straight in regards to dancing around a fire naked, killing babies and bathing in their blood, Devil goats, etc., since so much of the media I consume tries to flip those tropes on their head. Especially since witches (traditionally) are such an anti-woman concept at their core.

So I had a bit of a hard time understanding why Thomasin would turn so quickly, but when I thought about, I can totally see why a young woman would go "Fuck it, I'm gonna go join them and at least have power/fun if that's what people are going to accuse me of doing anyways."

Also was surprised for there to be that many white women in a coven already. I always got the feeling that the only colony for miles was the plantation they left in the beginning, so that was a bit weird.

 

[Cocaloch]

Watched this last night. I thought it was really well done and I loved the setting.

Spoiler

It was kind of weird to see witches played so straight in regards to dancing around a fire naked, killing babies and bathing in their blood, Devil goats, etc., since so much of the media I consume tries to flip those tropes on their head. Especially since witches (traditionally) are such an anti-woman concept at their core.

So I had a bit of a hard time understanding why Thomasin would turn so quickly, but when I thought about, I can totally see why a young woman would go "Fuck it, I'm gonna go join them and at least have power/fun if that's what people are going to accuse me of doing anyways."

Also was surprised for there to be that many white women in a coven already. I always got the feeling that the only colony for miles was the plantation they left in the beginning, so that was a bit weird.

If you're interested in the topic I would recommend reading about it more broadly. People seriously believed in witchcraft, often including the accused.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'm specifically talking about people who claim a movie has no merit just because they didn't like it, that the qualities other people praise simply aren't there.

The Saw part was me being petty because I get so nauseated when I see formulaic movies that aren't especially well made rake in millions and get a big thumbs-up from general audiences, while movies like The Witch that were insanely well crafted have limited appeal because they don't pander to and instantly gratify those same people. My frustration stems from having a deep appreciation for great craft and seeing people baselessly scorn it.

"I didn't like it" is not a sufficient reason to call a movie objectively bad. Bad means the movie fails on its own terms, it has no value, it's riddled with major flaws that fatally compromise its creative aims. If someone's going to level those charges at a movie that does not in fact have those issues, then they're in the wrong, and their opinion has less weight than an informed opinion.

Let me be clear: I'm not attacking anybody's right to feel how they feel, so far as that concerns them as an individual. I'm saying that if someone insists on projecting their bad experience on a movie's actual qualities, which are not dependent on anyone's feelings, they've overstepped the boundary of reasonable criticism and started down the thorny path of scapegoating the movie when in fact they weren't attentive or informed enough, or maybe just weren't in the right mood, to get it.

I didn't enjoy Taxi Driver very much at all. It didn't entertain me or leave me with any agreeable feelings, to be honest. Yet I was able to recognize that it was well made, and that my impression was my problem, not the movie's. I as a viewer wasn't in the right headspace to feel what so many others feel about Taxi Driver. It was not for me to say "Boy howdy, Scorsese laid a real fat turd there. People liked that awful movie? Total waste of two hours."

Fantastic posts in this thread, Monocle. It took me some time to learn to distinguish movies I didn't enjoy, from movies that are poorly made, but it's a critical distinction. A film I think back on often is The English Patient, which is impeccable in every department. The acting is brilliant, the cinematography stunning, the story interesting. And I was bored out of my mind watching it. It may well have been my mindset watching it, but I found myself appreciating the craft but not being drawn into it one iota. Given the near universal praise the film gets, I put that on me, not the film, similar to your comments about Taxi Driver. (Scorsese's Mean Streets is another. We studied it in my college film class, and I appreciated its craftsmanship enormously. I also didn't enjoy watching it one bit.)

My struggle these days is to find ways to articulate why good films don't work for me - I often don't know why. But it's at least changed the way I critique them.

 

[Pau]

If you're interested in the topic I would recommend reading about it more broadly. People seriously believed in witchcraft, often including the accused.

Yeah, I know that people seriously believed,

Spoiler

but it's still odd to see it played so straight in a modern film.

I've only read a bit about it from a feminist perspective (Silvia Federici's Caliban and the Witch). Would be interesting to read about it from other perspectives.

I also know quite a few people who still believe in witchcraft (including my some family members), but from a Caribbean/South American tradition.

 

[Monocle]

Fantastic posts in this thread, Monocle. It took me some time to learn to distinguish movies I didn't enjoy, from movies that are poorly made, but it's a critical distinction. A film I think back on often is The English Patient, which is impeccable in every department. The acting is brilliant, the cinematography stunning, the story interesting. And I was bored out of my mind watching it. It may well have been my mindset watching it, but I found myself appreciating the craft but not being drawn into it one iota. Given the near universal praise the film gets, I put that on me, not the film, similar to your comments about Taxi Driver. (Scorsese's Mean Streets is another. We studied it in my college film class, and I appreciated its craftsmanship enormously. I also didn't enjoy watching it one bit.)

My struggle these days is to find ways to articulate why good films don't work for me - I often don't know why. But it's at least changed the way I critique them.

I appreciate that! And I'm glad you recognize the separateness of quality or value and personal enjoyment.

I also find myself wrapped up in a continuing struggle to clearly articulate my responses to art, positive or negative, if only to provide a counterpoint to shallow readings. I'm painfully aware of how easily this can devolve into reactionary barking at people who don't validate my opinions. I guess all I can do is stay conscious of that risk and focus on making a positive case for movies (or whatever else) that I consider underappreciated, or identifying why something really doesn't work for me, as the case may be.

 

[Sunster]

Goat has a twitter lol

what a time to be alive.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Apparently this is doing a one-week re-expansion into theaters before heading off to VoD, so look around if you want to catch it in theaters, or again if you did the first time around.

Speaking of expansion, Eye in the Sky is adding 906 theaters for a total of 1,029; the Tom Hiddleston-led biopic I Saw the Light is adding 736 theaters; and A24 is doing one last push for The Witch, bringing it to a thematic 666 theaters in its seventh weekend in release.

 

[Jake.]

saw it tonight. good, but not great - the concept of black phillip in third/final act is the highlight by far. i think all of the 'terrifying' review quotes in the trailer kinda ruined it for me. surprised by how many people seemingly walked out.

 

[timetokill]

saw it tonight. good, but not great - the concept of black phillip in third/final act is the highlight by far. i think all of the 'terrifying' review quotes in the trailer kinda ruined it for me. surprised by how many people seemingly walked out.

Yeah, as I've said before, the trailer really does this movie a disservice. It promotes a movie experience that the film has no intention of delivering.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Apparently this is doing a one-week re-expansion into theaters before heading off to VoD, so look around if you want to catch it in theaters, or again if you did the first time around.

Haha.

You must have really loved this movie.

I always see you promoting it in here.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Haha.

You must have really loved this movie.

I always see you promoting it in here.

I'm waiting and hoping for a Criterion release. It's very rare I buy films nowadays, but this one is instabuy territory.

 

[Violence Jack]

Got my ticket for tonight at an indy theater. I'm eager to see it because I'm not sure what to expect.