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Theodicy: How can a benevolent God allow suffering? (NOT Atheism vs Theists thread)
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John Dunbar
correct about everything
LaserBuddha said:
oh wow, that convinced me.
Indeed, for many religious people, Hell is simply eternal separation from God. Particularly for Christians, then Hell is the default destination for mankind because humans are separated both physically and spirtually from God due to the original sin.ArjanN said:Then turn out to be selfish, spoiled brats.
You could argue hell is just a metaphor.
I'll go ahead and provide Thomas Aquinas' definition of evil, which is very enlightening:
". . . As the term good signifies perfect being, so the term evil signifies nothing else than privation of perfect being. In its proper acceptance, privation is predicated of that which is fitted by its nature to be possessed, and to be possessed at a certain time and in a certain manner. Evidently, therefore, a thing is called evil if it lacks a perfection it ought to have. Thus if a man lacks the sense of sight, this is an evil for him. But the same lack is not an evil for a stone, for the stone is not equipped by nature to have the faculty of sight."
So evil itself doesn't exist by itself, but is defined as the lack of perfection (whether physically, intellectually, or morally) found in a created being.
Here's the entire article I pulled this from.
". . . As the term good signifies perfect being, so the term evil signifies nothing else than privation of perfect being. In its proper acceptance, privation is predicated of that which is fitted by its nature to be possessed, and to be possessed at a certain time and in a certain manner. Evidently, therefore, a thing is called evil if it lacks a perfection it ought to have. Thus if a man lacks the sense of sight, this is an evil for him. But the same lack is not an evil for a stone, for the stone is not equipped by nature to have the faculty of sight."
So evil itself doesn't exist by itself, but is defined as the lack of perfection (whether physically, intellectually, or morally) found in a created being.
Here's the entire article I pulled this from.
"God's Beard!"
Member
LaserBuddha said:
Ohh! Ohh! Pick me, pick me!
I'm a PhD Student in Experimental Psychology and you're full of shit
rpmurphy said:
For some Earth is hell since they interpret some verses as saying the devil currently has reign of the Earth. I guess the op would ask why would god allow this. Wasn't it the world that turned from god though?
I mean if you believe some of the things in the bible actually happened then god showed his power to many. Some that saw it first hand still lost faith in god.
OP read the book The Shac by William P Young. Its a father who deals with the loss of his daughter out on a trip. She was kidnapped and killed. The book talks about the father dealing with the loss and his anger towards god etc. Its a really good book imo. I really hope you read it. Really worth it. You can find it for like 3 bucks
Aristion said:
Bro, you're not supposed to use the moral reformation argument when dealing with rape. That goes under "God has to allow human free will". Earthquakes, tsunamis, hunger etc. are what God uses for moral reformation.
More seriously though, uh, if you are indeed suggesting that it's completely plausible that God could allow rape for moral reformation... Why does then rape happen to perfectly good people, and not just those in need of "moral reformation"?
"God's Beard!"
Member
Halycon said:
depends on the experiment, unfortunately...
People always talk about heaven or paradise as if it's some great reward at the end of the rainbow...
...but I think, if there is a God, then we are already in his intended world. The pain helps us to contextualize the joy, and the sad and depressing things of the world are - whether we like to admit it or not - color for what would otherwise be a rather mundane and empty world free of emotion.
It's like this discussion I had with a Jehovah's Witness Elder once. They told me that if I ever wondered about how bad this world was, I could look forward to eternal life in paradise where there would be no pain, everyone would be perfect.
And I said to him... "why would I want to live in a world where everyone is perfect? If everyone is perfect, it'd be the most boring world I could imagine. I'd rather die then."
...but I think, if there is a God, then we are already in his intended world. The pain helps us to contextualize the joy, and the sad and depressing things of the world are - whether we like to admit it or not - color for what would otherwise be a rather mundane and empty world free of emotion.
It's like this discussion I had with a Jehovah's Witness Elder once. They told me that if I ever wondered about how bad this world was, I could look forward to eternal life in paradise where there would be no pain, everyone would be perfect.
And I said to him... "why would I want to live in a world where everyone is perfect? If everyone is perfect, it'd be the most boring world I could imagine. I'd rather die then."
LaserBuddha
Member
God's Beard said:Ohh! Ohh! Pick me, pick me!
I'm a PhD Student in Experimental Psychology and you're full of shit
Okay, let's put your credits in Experimental Psychology to work.
How does experiencing sadness, frustration, or denial of your desires NOT allow you to form your ability to appreciate pleasure and experience happiness?
Tell me how I'm full of shit.
Dever said:
Well, that assumes that humans aren't totally depraved (which I agree that they aren't), but if you're arguing with a Christian, that's the fundamental element of disconnect between the believer and unbeliever.
Wazzim said:
God can't make things blue while being red. That isn't even a component of omnipotence...that's simply illogical.
Zenith said:
What's wrong with God killing innocent people? Is He not the giver of the gift of life, reserving Him of the right of when to terminate life?
LocoMrPollock
Banned
If we try and look at things from God's perspective-
A tragedy to him is a person dying without accepting him and being saved. He will grant us eternal life and reunite us with those that we have lost.
Free will - unfortunately that means that people can and will do terrible things to other people and God cannot interfere. This is what it is all about, if we did not have free will, then we would just be slaves. To prove that he is just and fair, he must allow everyone free will.
There is no eternal hell, and unbaptized babies will not go there. This is bullshit that the catholic church made up along with various other bullshit.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist.
No one knows the truth about anything really, and certainly not everything. That goes for atheists as well as believers.
A tragedy to him is a person dying without accepting him and being saved. He will grant us eternal life and reunite us with those that we have lost.
Free will - unfortunately that means that people can and will do terrible things to other people and God cannot interfere. This is what it is all about, if we did not have free will, then we would just be slaves. To prove that he is just and fair, he must allow everyone free will.
There is no eternal hell, and unbaptized babies will not go there. This is bullshit that the catholic church made up along with various other bullshit.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist.
No one knows the truth about anything really, and certainly not everything. That goes for atheists as well as believers.
Wazzim said:
The medieval philosophers have for centuries emphasized the fact that logic is God's nature, thus logic is God. That's why God is characterized as a logically necessary being. It's a step up from Plato's world of the forms, making them a personal supernatural being.
Shanadeus said:
The Free Will argument is never found in the Bible, so the biblical authors couldn't have cared less.
Dan Yo said:
Yeah, "OWWW MY TOE HURTS, WHY GOD WHHHHYYYYYY!!!" :lol
You could argue that this is considered infinite suffering if God makes you immortal and you have baby toe pain for the rest of eternity. :lol
If the christian/muslim/whatever says that we can not understand God's ways or his grander purpose for humanity, he falls into deep trouble. If, due to our flawed understanding of God, we can never conclusively say that what He does is evil, how can we ever justify saying that what He does is good? Christians tend to take all the good in the world as evidence of God's benevolence. But what if things like providing us with family and friends is only part of a grander, sinister plan? What if the only reason good exists is so that God can take it away from us in the afterlife and torment us with the memory of what we have lost? All theodicy can be turned on it's head like this.
LaserBuddha
Member
Here's a summation of my thoughts on this:
-There isn't a way to rationalize a benevolent God who has a hand in all events, i.e. "everything happens for a reason". It is too easy to find examples of completely pointless death and suffering and that's why those who believe in this say shit like "God works in mysterious ways" to explain it away. The purpose of the FIRST FUCKING BOOK of the Bible is to demonstrate that God chooses to give people free will to do good and evil.
-The only rational way to fit religion (or I guess Judeo-Christian religions) into the real world is to believe that God leaves us to our own devices, to experience and enact good and evil, joy and tragedy, pleasure and suffering, charity and selfishness. Through this, the ultimate goal would be to live virtuously as well as to love and appreciate who and what you have. Living through all of this and choosing to be a "good person" has merit, whereas being a "good person" in a perfect and happy world would not only be valueless, but not logically possible either.
-There isn't a way to rationalize a benevolent God who has a hand in all events, i.e. "everything happens for a reason". It is too easy to find examples of completely pointless death and suffering and that's why those who believe in this say shit like "God works in mysterious ways" to explain it away. The purpose of the FIRST FUCKING BOOK of the Bible is to demonstrate that God chooses to give people free will to do good and evil.
-The only rational way to fit religion (or I guess Judeo-Christian religions) into the real world is to believe that God leaves us to our own devices, to experience and enact good and evil, joy and tragedy, pleasure and suffering, charity and selfishness. Through this, the ultimate goal would be to live virtuously as well as to love and appreciate who and what you have. Living through all of this and choosing to be a "good person" has merit, whereas being a "good person" in a perfect and happy world would not only be valueless, but not logically possible either.
rpmurphy said:
Their punishment did not fit the crime, so it was unjust. The world became a harsh and unforgiving place for them and all their children forever just because they ate a fruit they weren't supposed to?
God told them not to eat a fruit and didn't give them a good reason besides his command. Maybe he if gave them an explanation, or even warned that they would face a horrible punishment if they tried it, they would have accepted that. By giving it the aura of mystery, and humans being curious by nature, it became inevitable that the fruit would be eaten. If God was omnipotent, and created humans to be curious, then he knew that they would inevitably try the mystery fruit, so that makes the severe punishment seem more unusual.
Dreams-Visions
Member
it's the nature of the situation their actions created.Zzoram said:
nope. obedience was all that was required. they didn't need further explanation.Zzoram said:
she failed to remain obedient. that's the simple part in the discussion.Dever said:
Aristion said:
No. What a bunch of nonsense.
Your parents don't have the right to kill you. It's amazing what people will let slide if they God did it. It's like when Pat Buchanan said the Holocaust was ok because God did it to bring Jews closer together. Imagine if a human killed 6 million people just to bring the survivors closer together. He'd be the evilest person ever.
No he didn't. God didn't give shit, lied to us and said it poisonous, didn't know about it till Adam told him, was horrified, then set up a flaming sword to defend to the tree of life so mankind couldn't also get immortality which would make us god-like.
LaserBuddha
Member
Wazzim said:
Yeah you can argue that by having this tree in the first place, and not giving a reason for the rule or what the consequences are, he is introducing temptation, a conflict of will. This creates a choice, which would lend value to them being obedient by giving them a reason to choose not to be obedient.
Bidermaier
Member
The personal god is just an invention to make god easier to swallow.
I guess we think that god is "good" because when we do good things we feel that the goodness comes from somewhere else. We feel we are neutral and then we feel invaded from something good. Which is interesting.
But really, god is all about focusing on the abstract rather than the material/limited world. But here is the important bit: The material world also includes our brain generated sense of consciousness.
I guess we think that god is "good" because when we do good things we feel that the goodness comes from somewhere else. We feel we are neutral and then we feel invaded from something good. Which is interesting.
But really, god is all about focusing on the abstract rather than the material/limited world. But here is the important bit: The material world also includes our brain generated sense of consciousness.
kame-sennin
Member
I like what Stephen Fry had to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR5hWbfZsYs
If there is a god or gods, then they would have to be capricious assholes. For some reason, I find that oddly comforting (though I'm an atheist).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR5hWbfZsYs
If there is a god or gods, then they would have to be capricious assholes. For some reason, I find that oddly comforting (though I'm an atheist).
Like many stories in the Bible, it's not literal. The apple is simply an item of invaluable nature that they were strictly forbidden to mess around with. A modern day analogy could be that of an employer and a very trusted employee for whom was given the knowledge of the safe combination for safe keeping, but told not to open it or touch the contents without permission. If the employee did in fact out of curiosity or of external influence open the safe and then take some of the contents, should the employer not be just in firing that employee even though it may have been the employer's own mistake for misplacing his trust in the first place, and having known that there is a possibility that such an unforgivable action could occur knowing the curious and selfish nature of man?Zzoram said:
As I have said, my personal belief is that God is not omniscient of future events resulting from the actions of man, so I do not argue for the contrary.
"God's Beard!"
Member
LaserBuddha said:
You can't even remember the original quote?
"Without sadness, we would not understand what happiness is."
What you said and the other guy said are two different things. So either you have no reading comprehension or you're being deliberately fallacious. Either way, you're full of shit.
Zenith said:
Yeah, an a priori assumption that parents are your creator ex nihilo, and that they have an absolute claim upon your life.
Category error, and you know it.
If a human killed 6 million people, he would be evil because he has no prerogative of ownership of the lives of others, AND he himself is a sinner by nature.
And we're talking about the same God who clothed himself into human flesh and endured the same suffering that His children endured. That is FAR from evil.
There was no lie. God claimed that Adam would die if he ate the fruit, and it was fulfilled.
astroturfing
Member
thinking of all the children tortured, raped, drown, eaten by predators and so on throughout history... i'd say if a god exists, it is an entity that simply does not care and has no human emotions of sympathy or anything.
edit: Aristion's posts literally shocked me :O goddamnit i could feel my heart pounding harder than normal.. felt like a panic attack coming or something. HOLY SHIT at the cynicism. holy shit.
edit: Aristion's posts literally shocked me :O goddamnit i could feel my heart pounding harder than normal.. felt like a panic attack coming or something. HOLY SHIT at the cynicism. holy shit.
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