Poltergust
Member
Time to play some Undertale?
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There's too much murdering going on at E3.
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ChoklitReign
Member
Male obsession with violence predates civilization - as hunter gatherers men were warriors. It's part of who we are, possibly genetic - men especially love anything that reminds them of the "thrill of the hunt." Be glad that they can satisfy the feeling today in simulations rather than (unfortunately still the case) killing in reality.
Then don't watch the 1-2 hour press conference that's explicitly about video games and was planned months ago with no way of foreseeing a tragedy happening the night before?
God of War is actually a great example of a franchise that I deeply enjoy, but I don't like how they market it. I think the combat system in God of War is fun and rewarding. Yeah, it is violent, a bit too violent at times in my opinion. But the combat itself is engaging in a way where, for me, the violence isn't what primarily motivates me to play it. I feel like the marketing of the game relies too much on spectacular kills. The problem for me is that they keep turning it up with each game and it just becomes ridiculous after a while.
potatohead
Member
If it makes you uncomfortable at this moment, then don't watch it. You have that opportunity to decide what is right for you.
We don't even know if either shooter played videogames.
Violence can be abstracted out of gameplay mechanics as simply context around the mechanics. I'm not even saying that games like Dishonored 2 don't have those same things. I'm saying the way they demonstrated it is feels like it focuses violence too much as the primary motivator to play. That time travel ability is the perfect example of what I mean. Here you have a cool gameplay mechanic that could be used in all sorts of ways, and they use it to get behind a bystanding guard and stab him in the neck in the cheapest way possible. I had seen a dozen guys already get stabbed by that point even.
Night Angel
Member
You can always change the channel, man. The world can't stop because a nutjob went on a killing spree.
And if you can't see how people enjoying violence in games and abhorring real world atrocities are entirely separate, then you need to check your perspective.
That's cool. But I also wanted to talk about it too. That's what this place is for, after all.
GinoFelino
Member
You just got to make your own gaming diet, man.
Play some Kirby, play some indies. Plenty of non-violent stuff to be announced at Sony, maybe Ubisoft and MS.
I feel like realistic violence isn't being emphasised as much as earlier years. Battlefield, Titanfall; those games focus on spectacle, not murder. When I see trailers like that Dishonoured one with all the neck stabbing, I get a little nauseous/frustrated too. Just tune out.
You can make your own E3 more fun by just avoiding the more violent stuff.
Play some Kirby, play some indies. Plenty of non-violent stuff to be announced at Sony, maybe Ubisoft and MS.
I feel like realistic violence isn't being emphasised as much as earlier years. Battlefield, Titanfall; those games focus on spectacle, not murder. When I see trailers like that Dishonoured one with all the neck stabbing, I get a little nauseous/frustrated too. Just tune out.
You can make your own E3 more fun by just avoiding the more violent stuff.
This is so odd to me. I like God of War a lot, but it's the Call of Duty to DMC or Bayonetta or Ninja Gaiden's Counter Strike.
Like, God of War is both marketed and DESIGNED to give pops for violent actions. You play as an absolute monster and that's its draw. It's incredibly slick and constantly rewarding even mediocre play with huge amounts of violent feedback.
I don't think I understand what you're asking for anymore.
I get what you are saying about how GoW has continued to tune up its violence with each entry, but I'm mostly okay with that. I look at violence the same way I look at a lot of sexism debates: I am totally okay with the games that unabashedly revel in their puerile nature. I wouldn't want a Mortal Kombat where you couldn't tear your opponent up like you're a Ginsu knife, BUT(!), I'm not a big fan of heavy violence encroaching on games that otherwise don't need it. So keep your scantily clad ladies in your eroge games, but please, no more boob armor and loli sicklings in a standard RPG please.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
i think the OP's feeling is honorable. Everyone needs to feel somber and upset about the evil in the world.
If the recent atrocity has personally affected your views on entertainment that's quite alright. You are human and I can empathize. Sometimes I feel similar.
Life is hard.
If the recent atrocity has personally affected your views on entertainment that's quite alright. You are human and I can empathize. Sometimes I feel similar.
Life is hard.
Are you simply conceding the point that all videogames are about violence?
Anyway, it's hard to think of a time in the last year that E3 marketers could have worked without something about a mass shooting or violent tragedy going on in the public conscience.
And I didn't claim they did, I was speaking in a more general sense. I'm not American so I wasn't specifically talking about America.
Devilgunman
Member
Then stop watching. GTFO of E3 because today is really just the beginning. Tomorrow Kratos will show up and you can expect another level of violence.
potatohead
Member
That's a fair opinion about violence in one game and another opinion about violence in another game, that's fine.
I agree that there is a more involved violence in Dishonored compared to Quake, it is more personal and up close. And that is by design I'm sure.
I don't personally find one more distressing than the other, I actually enjoy watching the silly fantasy cartoon physics of UT gibs fly around and paint the walls red (morbid, I'm sure, but videogames).
I find both are artistic in their own ways and serve the models of their gameplay and design very well. Just IMO but I think there is room and appetite for both forms of fantasy violence in this medium.
No hard feelings OP. Your thread title could use some work though
If anything all I can suggest for you is to curate your gaming according to your tastes. If certain games make you uncomfortable due to their violence, I would steer away from them. If others don't bother you, then by all means play those games instead.
I don't like how GoW has amped up the violence more and more. I like games like DMC and Ninja Gaiden as well. I'm not carrying GoW as some sort of god-tier action game or anything. I just like it and find the mechanics of the game fun. I do think that GoW is a much better game on harder difficulties. A good example is God of War: Ascension's Trials of Archimedes before they patched it to be easier. I played it on the hard difficulty before they patched it, and it was an exhilarating moment for me. I felt like the game was testing my understanding and execution of the mechanics of the game incredibly well. Yeah, you get pissed from the difficulty and those glory kills are going to give you a bit of a "Yeah, fuck you and die!" response after all of the frustrating deaths. But the primary motivator for me to play were the mechanics, not the violence. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd still stick around and play the game just as much if it were less violent.
Citation needed.
Don't be this guy OP. We're finally getting past the whole 'video games are turning our children into soldiers!' thing, we don't need it coming back. Your whole argument about contextualising killing makes no sense. The whole idea behind dishonoured is that you can choose to kill people or you can not. If it's anything like the first game, then killing will actively make the later game harder. They want to show off all the fancy kills because it's a huge part of the game that killing feels good. If the killing didn't make you feel strong and powerful in a really base way then there's much less incentive to go lethal. Every game with violence is contextualised, the only difference here is how you personally feel. And it's fine to feel different ways about two things irrationally. I hate how DOA fetishises it's women but for some reason I'm fine with Bayonetta. The same thing can apply to your perception of violence, and if something makes you feel uncomfortable, then don't let people talk you into thinking those thoughts are wrong (although if it's real bad maybe don't watch E3, it's not exactly going to stop). The thing is you can't bring your own irrational feelings into an argument that there should be less focus on violence.
Death Penalty
Member
Putting aside the OP's seeming bias in favor of a game that glorifies killing as much as modern Doom and its best competitors, I think the main thing here is that the comparison being drawn between real life murder and fragging/eliminating/etc. in a video game is a pretty ridiculous one. The fantasy violence in a video game is there to make our tribal brains feel cool and capable, it's not about eliminating another living creature from a place of hatred or dispassion. There's violence in video games to allow us to compete or to overcome an obstacle before us, and competing well and defeating challenges makes us feel good. It's the same thing that makes sports appeal to us as living creatures, because we're hardwired to like it when we're good at surviving or skills that translate to survival. Putting it in more basic terms, it's all in good fun and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as the mass murder that you cite. You'll note that people cheered at the E3 conferences and yet still managed to grieve at this atrocity that was just committed, which makes it real clear that the general person processes them as two wholly different things. Wacky! I know the OP isn't saying video games cause violence or anything like that, but the parallel that they're drawing is pretty insane even without that.
Also just curious, OP. How would you like them to market a game to a wide audience? It sounds like you're looking for them to focus on mechanical depth rather than spectacle, but you have to know that's utterly bonkers when this is media going out to the world and not just to hardcore niche fans like yourself! Mechanical depth is really likely to go over the head of most people this game is being marketed at. Beyond that, they sold us on many aspects of Dishonored's world, gave us background on the new city and its situation, showed us magnificent vistas and how Emily's new powers work, they basically focused on every facet that might be interesting to show to the most people. There was a lot there beyond killing, just yes, in a game about assassination there was also stabbing. That shouldn't be a surprise.
Also just curious, OP. How would you like them to market a game to a wide audience? It sounds like you're looking for them to focus on mechanical depth rather than spectacle, but you have to know that's utterly bonkers when this is media going out to the world and not just to hardcore niche fans like yourself! Mechanical depth is really likely to go over the head of most people this game is being marketed at. Beyond that, they sold us on many aspects of Dishonored's world, gave us background on the new city and its situation, showed us magnificent vistas and how Emily's new powers work, they basically focused on every facet that might be interesting to show to the most people. There was a lot there beyond killing, just yes, in a game about assassination there was also stabbing. That shouldn't be a surprise.
I'm not really arguing that all of this killing is creating real-life murders happen. I'm just saying that I'm finding it incredibly unappealing. And I get that Dishonored is a game with both violent and non-violent options. But the way they demonstrated the game sure only made it look like a game of only violence. And that's my point.
DirtyLarry
Member
I am not being condescending at all when I say perhaps it is time to stop supporting these games. If you truly believe they contribute to an overall larger issue, which I very well may agree with you that they do, the first step would be is to speak with your wallet. Let the video game companies know they need to be more creative.
With that said, shooting shit (more often than not some kind of "enemy") is going to be the core gameplay mechanic of AAA video games for the foreseeable future.
Why? A few reasons.
Most video games are about feeling more powerful than your adversaries. The universal symbol of power for a single person is a weapon. More specifically, a gun.
I get your overall point that violence is too prevelant, I really do, but what you are trying to discuss is changing a very base and engrained belief in society about what it means to be a "bad ass," which is ultimately what video games seek to do. Provide the end user with a fantastical virtual environment to pretend they are in fact a bad ass.
It also happens to translate very well to gameplay itself.
There is no clear or obvious answer here and I also believe it goes much, much deeper than games themselves. This is a society issue and the games are a reflection. I'm all for starting the discussion but have zero idea where to go once it has begun. I wish it was different. I truly do.
With that said, shooting shit (more often than not some kind of "enemy") is going to be the core gameplay mechanic of AAA video games for the foreseeable future.
Why? A few reasons.
Most video games are about feeling more powerful than your adversaries. The universal symbol of power for a single person is a weapon. More specifically, a gun.
I get your overall point that violence is too prevelant, I really do, but what you are trying to discuss is changing a very base and engrained belief in society about what it means to be a "bad ass," which is ultimately what video games seek to do. Provide the end user with a fantastical virtual environment to pretend they are in fact a bad ass.
It also happens to translate very well to gameplay itself.
There is no clear or obvious answer here and I also believe it goes much, much deeper than games themselves. This is a society issue and the games are a reflection. I'm all for starting the discussion but have zero idea where to go once it has begun. I wish it was different. I truly do.
That's because people focus on the killing. Everyone seems to forget there are other games out there, plenty of them varied and proven to be just as fun. Even when focusing on your "murder sims" they are still filled with quite a lot of other fantastic things like well-written story, great talent and genuine love for the making of the product.
But then again, and this is not to be insensitive to the terrible situation in Orlando, there is violence all over this world at every minute of every day. While Orlando was a horrible event, it isn't new and tomorrow there will be another one, one that some will know about and others will not. This is the world we live in, a world that is trying to be better but there will always be good and evil. Focus on what video games are, a means to an end in allowing people to live out their fantasies, be who they are not in real life and better yet break away the shackles of reality without remorse or guilt of living in a world filled with death.
But then again, and this is not to be insensitive to the terrible situation in Orlando, there is violence all over this world at every minute of every day. While Orlando was a horrible event, it isn't new and tomorrow there will be another one, one that some will know about and others will not. This is the world we live in, a world that is trying to be better but there will always be good and evil. Focus on what video games are, a means to an end in allowing people to live out their fantasies, be who they are not in real life and better yet break away the shackles of reality without remorse or guilt of living in a world filled with death.
Night Angel
Member
OP, no one is going to get excited for a 5 minute trailer of a guy sneaking around a town so he can mind control a goldfish to spy on someone when he could instead do a flashy infiltration/execution. These are marketing events. Violence is exciting.
So, dismiss the entire argument by telling me to not participate in gaming?
You're practically agreeing with the OP ; even going further, by suggesting there is nothing more to see than violence.
No? I just don't see why you would watch a 1+ hour press events knowing that many of the marquee titles being show for this year will very obviously involve killing, despite not wanting to see any violence. If they had held this event literally a day earlier, there would be no tragedy in the public conscience.
I think last year's Doom was a good way of doing it, actually. They walked up and said "Hey, we know that Doom is about fast paced action, great weapons, and amazing graphics. So that's what we're gonna give you with this new Doom". Then they showed a long gameplay segment, which had a shitload of violence in it, but did a great job of demonstrating the pace and mechanics of the game. I walked away from that demo feeling like "Man, they're doing a really good job nailing the pace of the Doom I played in the 90s." Most of the enemies they fragged weren't really being used as a focus. Like, they didn't have a lot of those "did you see how bad we blew up that dude?" moments. It was more like "Okay, this Pinky needs to die NOW or else I'm going to have a lot of problems here."
potatohead
Member
It's not just a citation thing. It's more a chicken and egg debate. There's not going to be much citation about a cultural or philosophical debate.
Does life imitate art, or art imitate life? Or both? And to what degree? What role does culture and zeitgeist play?
There's so many reasons we could point to where we could say "this is why we have violence in our society".
For all of these things there is generally no standard to compare to, since of all behaviour we observe in different societies, none is the "normal."
It is impossible to prove, or even disprove, many claims of how culture affects our behaviour.
I would first point out to concrete materials as causes of gun violence or violence in society in general before trying to identify what cultural property is most responsible for violence though. Something concrete like income inequality or job access or upward socioeconomic maneuverability.
Night Angel
Member
No, I'm saying that these events have a wide variety of games at them. Many of them are violent. If you can't handle violence, don't watch.
You're projecting much more into our posts than we typed.
I mean, sure? I guess they did, but have you played dishonoured? Non lethal is a dull, slow slog. Lethal shows off all the mechanics, non lethal would only show off a handful. If anything the focus on the violence is a side effect of the focus on the gameplay, which seems to be what you want them to do.
Death Penalty
Member
I mean wasn't a big focus of most of that gameplay the new glory kills feature, which seems to be exactly what you're talking about? Didn't they also display a great deal of strategy, depth and option in Dishonored 2's gameplay?
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
Violence makes the world go around, where would mario be if he couldnt punch bowser? It would be like the itchy and scratchy had no violence.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
I did actually take a moment today due to the shooting and wonder from a psilocybin-style perspective at how violent games may affect us on a deeper level in the psyche and what that says about the culture/industry of gaming, the businesses in them that continue feeding these pieces of media to us, and our desire for more. Not one of those types that thinks this media contributes to violent behavior, but I do question if it nonetheless has an impact and could potentially distance us from real world horror and empathy on some level. Granted, such desensitization for me is prob more due to seeing liveleak type crap over the years rather than anything in a game.
Other side of the coin, 13 years ago Postal 2 came out and I found myself in a state of both glee and disgust over some of the mechanics in that game, where you can literally burn people alive and watch them writhe around screaming, and then proceed to put them out by urinating on them. As others have pointed out, this is a game where you can literally finish the thing without doing any of these acts to the denizens of the game world, those tools are just available to you, in much the same way GTA games give you this agency. In a way this kind of murder sim does instigate a bit of self reflection.
Granted, Postal 2 is fairly crude looking and not nearly as realistic as today's games depicting gore, yet I distinctly recall still feeling that combination of blood lust mixed with disgust. Weird mix, that.
So maybe the OP is correct in that recent marketing pitches for games are focusing more on "wicked kill cams!" and all the various fatalities in them, it'll be interesting to see if continued gun violence will do anything to sway the ad depts for studios to pump the brakes on this sort of exposure, but if the money is there and there is little outcry from the target demos I'm skeptical anything will really change.
Other side of the coin, 13 years ago Postal 2 came out and I found myself in a state of both glee and disgust over some of the mechanics in that game, where you can literally burn people alive and watch them writhe around screaming, and then proceed to put them out by urinating on them. As others have pointed out, this is a game where you can literally finish the thing without doing any of these acts to the denizens of the game world, those tools are just available to you, in much the same way GTA games give you this agency. In a way this kind of murder sim does instigate a bit of self reflection.
Granted, Postal 2 is fairly crude looking and not nearly as realistic as today's games depicting gore, yet I distinctly recall still feeling that combination of blood lust mixed with disgust. Weird mix, that.
So maybe the OP is correct in that recent marketing pitches for games are focusing more on "wicked kill cams!" and all the various fatalities in them, it'll be interesting to see if continued gun violence will do anything to sway the ad depts for studios to pump the brakes on this sort of exposure, but if the money is there and there is little outcry from the target demos I'm skeptical anything will really change.
I'd fucking love to see that.
No, I haven't played Dishonroed, but that's kinda my point. This is their moment to sell me on it. And I'd argue that games like MGS5 did a great job of turning stealth into a spectacle. Sure, maybe the stealth in Dishonored doesn't play to a crowd the same way, but I don't think its impossible to do.
No, they are telling you to not watch the presentations by the large media companies that specifically target users that buy violent video games.
When they are saying "change the channel", they aren't saying "turn off your TV".
Fuck that. Dishonoured non-lethal ghost is a challenging, methodical, paced, nail biting experience.
Learning environments, monitoring patrols, and navigating patterns doesn't pop well for audiences though.
Glory kills are my least favorite thing about Doom and that demonstration. They at least have a gameplay mechanic around it, but I think they make it a very one-sided decision. They made it to where there is everything to be gained from glory kills and nothing to be lost. I think it would have been better if they made glory kills riskier, but gave you the opportunity to gain back health by doing them.
Maybe one problem with Dishonored 2's demo in my view was how one-sided the confrontations were. I felt like I was just watching a woman completely merc these bystanding guards. The flashy kills just felt effortless. Maybe a reason why Doom's demo worked so well was because the player was constantly in survival mode.
Inviusx
Member
Violence makes the world go around, where would mario be if he couldnt punch bowser? It would be like the itchy and scratchy had no violence.
*Shivers*
Milly Osworth
Member
Based on the amount of actual news we got so far, I think there is room for reaction threads.
I think another good example are the Mortal Kombat games. There is probably no other fighting game that I find less appealing than Mortal Kombat judging just from how they market it. I'm a big fighting game fan, and all I ever get from their marketing is "look at all of the ways you can decimate people!" I get that is a name that Mortal Kombat was built on, but it makes for such a boring pitch in my view.
Death Penalty
Member
From my point of view the two demonstrations are really similar in that there's a lot of flashy killing, just Dishonored 2 actually had some other things going on besides that. There wasn't much difference in "survival", both players were tearing through grunt opponents as protagonists typically do. I mean absolutely no offense here, but the more that you post the murkier your definitions on what's good and what isn't good seem to become. I mean, you're holding up Dishonored 2 as a bad example when there was a lot of finesse going on there while in the same breath praising a game that has a mechanic called "glory kills". Trust me, you're much more vulnerable in a stealth game like Dishonored than you are in a true run and gun like the new Doom.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Stop thinking. Just drink your dew, swallow down those doritoes and cheer for the pretty face stabbings.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
It does make the game feel a bit floaty and hollow with the easy kills I agree, but more cartoony as well. I feel like it's prob harder to make stealth games appealing for demo purposes due to the whole "player a badass, invulnerable" kinda thing they almost always opt for showing, instead of any real high stakes moments.
So what are you thinking about?
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