It's a silly line, but works because of course they won't. If they did, it sure would paint the character who said that in a bad light.
Imagine the Big Bad somehow had a change of heart, asked for forgiveness, then got decapitated by the hero.
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Things that piss you off in Japanese games.
- Thread starter Corpsepyre
- Start date
It's a silly line, but works because of course they won't. If they did, it sure would paint the character who said that in a bad light.
Imagine the Big Bad somehow had a change of heart, asked for forgiveness, then got decapitated by the hero.
I'm just wondering why it's so prevalent. Guess it probably comes from a common saying and that's the best translation.
Banana Aeon
Member
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThisIsUnforgivable
This is a translation issue. In Japan, "I'll never forgive you!" is basically a death threat.
Kamina
Golden Boy
Translators should take such things into account and replace those lines with something more accurate rather than bluntly translating it word by word.
"I'm going to make you pay for this" would sound about right for this example.
An art style with one type of face is not a particularly interesting art style. There are plenty of anime-styled products with varied faces, the issue here are the lazy ones. Even the "realistic gritty bald white guy" has more facial variation than the worst anime style by dint of looking realistic (and in real life, people have different facial structures).
Black Door
Banned
Ya, sure
Most of the people bemoaning JRPG tropes here are of the same mindset as folks that wanted all RPGs to be Dragon Age back in 2010
Then people would be pissed that they changed the original dialog.
It is a tough job translating...because sometimes the original intent can be lost or it grinds the gears of the main audience.
That is the weird thing about both of these threads (West and East), how much would changing really help?
Would taking out the anime styling and other "Japanese" game design that alienates people really be worth it in the end? I imagine that doing that would actually lose many of the people who bought your games before and not exactly add a lot of new ones.
DmC is a good example (not completely since NT had baggage and a bad track record and didn't seem to have a great grasp of what made the series tick all the time...) of this. A lot of the changes were done to attract a new audience. Old Dante was pretty anime with his good looks and EXTREEEEEME tude and his (no pun intended..) devil may care personality as well as the series general WACKY plot was changed to a more "grounded" and Western approach in hopes of bringing in those on the outside.... I enjoyed the game for what it was but it is safe to say many hardcore fans hated it (well the ones who hated it for legit reasons) or found it subpar and a lot of them didn't buy it.
so in the end...most of the things in here are what make Japanese games ...Japanese games and most of the thing in the other thread are what make Western games what they are...and in a sense wouldn't changing them be rather counterproductive.
(not talking about the lolis and moe and creepy rubbing minigames of course....that is a different story)
Since someone brought this up in the other thread: Holy shit Japanese RPGs and action games have some of the most boring level design. Giant flat expanses in a linear fashion with nothing in them except some wandering enemies. It makes the infamous linear corridor of chest high walls look interesting; at least there, the level design affects the gameplay. Even the good action games like Metal Gear Rising barely do anything interesting with the levels. Monster Hunter only recently added a vertical component.
In general, Japanese games tend to be more linear. This isn't an issue with tightly crafted level design, but the shit outside of platformers and some neat titles like Zelda and Souls is the same bland generic empty stuff I see in boring open world games.
The action or the battles are the main attraction for most of those games so level design often takes a back seat (especially in character action games...where platforming is often the worst thing to add in..or puzzles).
But yeah RPG dungeons are often the worst parts of those games. I love the Persona Series. I love the battle system (first RPG series in which I actually used buffs and strategy pass GRIND AND HIT X) but fucking hell the dungeons were pretty bad in retrospect.
but again not sure what they can add that wouldn't feel out of place or padding since again the story and battles are the main focus. For RPGs at least...
I am waiting for an open world esque character action game tho..like a Zelda game but with DMC combat... Darksiders came close but I couldnt get passed the aesthetic
Thanks for the answer. I always wondered.
Minor point but regarding monster hunter, Tri had full-on 360 degree underwater battles with dragons. There was definitely a vertical element to it, although I know you mean the terrain in general, rolling hills and cliffs etc.
Red Liquorice
Member
It really annoys me in RPGs when they give you a choice, but there is no choice. So many times you get a big cutscene, then it goes to the gameplay and the only thing you can do is open a door or say 'yes' - either way is pressing a button, which cues up the next cutscene. What was the point in that? Just play the whole cutscene and let me get to the game!
If there's some kind of "anti-japanese everything" agenda, then why don't people shit on games like Ocarina of Time, Super Metroid, Final Fantasy VI, Chrono Trigger, Panzer Dragoon, Shenmue, old-school Resident Evil, Mega Man, Silent Hill etc.?
The truth is that, for many reasons, the Japanese industry decided to cater, almost exclusively, to otakus. And while animu freaks and weeaboos are fine with it, most people aren't.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Agree with pretty much this whole post, in particular the bolded.
Funnily enough, earlier jRPGs of the 90's weren't quite so egregious. It's really sad how low they've fallen, I still love the classic Phantasy Stars, Shining Forces, pre-8 Final Fantasies, etc.
Agreed though I think you were being too generous so I amended that.
Eh, I don't know if it's "gotten better". I could argue it's gotten worse, with the lolis and waifus everywhere. It wasn't quite so common before, as far as I know. One of the earliest jRPG ever, Phantasy Star, was released in 1987, and featured a non-sexualized female protagonist (Alis Landale). And no one thought this was bizarre or special or particularly amazing either, unless I'm mistaken.
The problem here is that you can have the level design enhance the combat or add new challenges. I'm reminded of Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time's wall vaults and Dark Soul's plunging attacks. For the inverse direction, you can have things like a floor that hurts you in a game with aerial combos.
That's one of the reasons I didn't mind underwater combat as much as other people did. Really wish Capcom kept it and refined it.
Because those animu freaks and otakus kept buying their shit.
as it was said earlier, the industry exploded and more western companies popped up and the cost of making games became greater making it more or less an all or nothing type deal. Games like Shenmue cost too much and didn't sell to the new masses (or bombed) and it became difficult to make them.
Those animue games people hate...don't cost a bunch to make apparently, sell reasonably well to their niches. Thats how the Neputnias of the world keep getting mad...they have an audience who supports them that is enough to keep making games.
It comes down to support. The support for a game that will cost tons of money to make like a Shenmue or a fully budgeted JRPG just doesn't seem to be there anymore (there were some pretty damn good RPGs that didn't go full Anime during the PS2 to PS3 gens that just didn't do well)..whereas the games people act like are a plague around here, have their little niche audiences that will be there day 1 to support and they don't require it to light the charts on fire to keep making games.
also Square Exix Capcom and Sega are full of big poopyheads who make poor decisions.
Night_Trekker
Member
It makes me happy to see so many gamers who are as sick of the "kid hero" shit as I am.
I have no problem with fan service and don't care at all who it offends, but... do maids and catgirls have to be in everything?
I have no problem with fan service and don't care at all who it offends, but... do maids and catgirls have to be in everything?
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
"Cute" characters.
Fighting the same boss over and over, either killing multiple times and it immediately pops up again, or fighting it again later on. It really destroys the satisfaction of beating a boss if you have to do it again.
Women with really high pitched voices. If the game is redubbed in English, the new voice actress also using a really high pitched voice.
Bad translations into English.
Headshots not killing enemies. I don't know that it's Japanese only, but I really don't like it.
Gigantic, oversizedpenises swords.
Fighting the same boss over and over, either killing multiple times and it immediately pops up again, or fighting it again later on. It really destroys the satisfaction of beating a boss if you have to do it again.
Women with really high pitched voices. If the game is redubbed in English, the new voice actress also using a really high pitched voice.
Bad translations into English.
Headshots not killing enemies. I don't know that it's Japanese only, but I really don't like it.
Gigantic, oversized
AtomskEater
Member
-Otaku pandering (fine now and again but it feels like it's getting more and more common)
(this also includes ridiculous outfits like panties worn as though they were pants)
-Information redundancy and flashbacks to events that happened five minutes ago (please stop this, I don't suffer from an obscure and selective form of amnesia)
-A lack of adult heroes, primarily in RPGs (you CAN in fact have a story where an adult changes and grows, since one of the common ways this gets shouted down on other boards is that teens are ripe for coming of age tales and 20 year olds are on life support and whatnot)
Oh, and when they either don't get localized or are handled poorly during localization.
(this also includes ridiculous outfits like panties worn as though they were pants)
-Information redundancy and flashbacks to events that happened five minutes ago (please stop this, I don't suffer from an obscure and selective form of amnesia)
-A lack of adult heroes, primarily in RPGs (you CAN in fact have a story where an adult changes and grows, since one of the common ways this gets shouted down on other boards is that teens are ripe for coming of age tales and 20 year olds are on life support and whatnot)
Oh, and when they either don't get localized or are handled poorly during localization.
Recently some PS1 games Ive played, Grandia, Legend of Dragoon, but more recently Muramasa, Malicious, Gravity Rush, Prinny, Persona 4
Either they have inane towns people or important story points told through text...or both....
Granted I dont play a lot of non action Japanese games, but of the ones I have they all seem to have a very lo fi way of presenting story.... and lots of unneeded boring dialogue. Its frustrating when you have a beautiful sprite or model that is basically boiled down to window dressing and a "print" function.
TC McQueen
Member
I've heard that some dubs have heavy Japanese oversight, which causes things like that, or just have directors that try to emulate the Japanese performances as much as possible, which is not a good idea in English.
Just had a part in Growlanser where you can refuse to join someone or choose to. I said no, which brought me back to the choice again after more dialogue, then I said no again, to which the NPC in question responds "I'm sorry, you don't actually have a choice here" in those exact words. I got a laugh out of it, personally, but I can definitely see the frustration with it. That being said, illusion of choice is not just a Japanese thing, actually there are less JRPGs that give you a choice than Wrpgs that do.
GrantDaNasty
Member
I'm currently replaying Persona 4, which is what's drawing my ire at the moment, although this applies to pretty much any JRPG, is the danger of losing progress because there usually is no auto-save, as well as there being set save points instead of save anywhere.
Listen, I understand that tension and risk can be exhilarating on some level, but having spent 35 minutes doing a dungeon only to die because something went horribly wrong and my main character (this is something Persona specifically bothers me with, WHY DO I LOSE IF MY MC GOES DOWN IF IT'S A PARTY-BASED GAME? YUKIKO IS RIGHT THERE WITH RECARM, C'MON!) eats it is beyond frustrating. There is no excitement from doing the same battles over again, not one iota. Hell, the last time I booted up P4, my game locked-up on me (only lost about 5 minutes of progress, so not as devastating though).
Hell, save anywhere should be standard in anything that isn't intentionally trying to be an exercise in frustration.
Listen, I understand that tension and risk can be exhilarating on some level, but having spent 35 minutes doing a dungeon only to die because something went horribly wrong and my main character (this is something Persona specifically bothers me with, WHY DO I LOSE IF MY MC GOES DOWN IF IT'S A PARTY-BASED GAME? YUKIKO IS RIGHT THERE WITH RECARM, C'MON!) eats it is beyond frustrating. There is no excitement from doing the same battles over again, not one iota. Hell, the last time I booted up P4, my game locked-up on me (only lost about 5 minutes of progress, so not as devastating though).
Hell, save anywhere should be standard in anything that isn't intentionally trying to be an exercise in frustration.
I find the cheesy, fumbling narratives of many japanese games to be more earnest and reflective of the nature of video games than the excessively dramatic, gray-toned opera of many high-production western games in their endless quest to be taken seriously so people with enough time on their hands can write a 10,000 word blog post on Bioshock: Infinite and Intersectionality.
So I guess if something pisses me off about them it's how they're not influencing games made here enough anymore.
So I guess if something pisses me off about them it's how they're not influencing games made here enough anymore.
It's apart of what makes SMT games what they are.
Those random moments in which you get bodied by an insta-kill spell and lose hours of gameplay is apart of the SMT experience.
Fans would be upset if the games got easier.or more forgiving.
(personally, it kept things fresh since at any moment you could get bodied, it kept the game from ever getting to easy and thus boring)
Beyonce Beytwice
Member
Long cutscenes, lots of talking/textboxes, hyperactive schoolgirls, lots of walking to and fro, Miis
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
Localization from east to west seems to be getting worse. It used to be about making it the right product for the people you're going to sell it to, now it seems to be more about just direct translation. If we could get something about halfway between what we have now and what they did 25-30 years ago I think I'd like things brought over from Japan a lot more.
The Wheel of Fortune
Member
I was playing Persona 4 a while ago and realized how much I dislike that "female doesn't know how to cook and uses you as her guinea pig" trope when Yukiko got Yu to try her food out. I'm glad to see it's not falling under that trope, as that was pretty much the whole deal with Fuuka in Persona 3.
So essentially you want a Phoenix Wright localization?
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
What the fuck?
GalacticAE
Member
Riposte
Member
What are examples of JRPGs with this? I can't think of any I played recently that had this and I've played quite a few.
I think that's a holdover from the old CRPGs that JRPGs are originally based on. Those old games I think had narrative choices, but Japanese developers pretty much never do that in RPGs. It's kind of like a vestigial thing.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Thank you for the examples. Hmm, I've only played Grandia, Gravity Rush and Persona 4 out of those. I like how NPCs in Grandia would reveal tidbits and trivia about the places you visit and I like following the personal stories of the NPCs in Persona 4 and watch them develop over time. I don't even remember that you could talk to NPCs in Gravity Rush. so there's that.
Unneeded, boring dialogue is a problem in many Japanese games, yes (from Tales to MGS) and I ranted about it in this very thread, but I don't think those three games in particular have this problem (it's been so so long since I've played Grandia, though). Unless you'd want to argue that they're unneeded and boring by virtue of only having stories told through text (or comic, in Gravity Rush's cases), in which case we'd never see eye to eye.
Neff
Member
Idol games, dating games, doujin fighters, that sort of thing.
TC McQueen
Member
I think he just wants a localization that sounds like something an actual English speaker would say, instead of the usually unwieldy dialogue and exposition we usually get out of localizations these days.
I like the comics of Gravity Rush...what irks me is straight lines of text from NPCs around town.... Muramasa is a huge offender on this front.
And Grandia is text book NPC dialogue like I said before. Yes some dialogue is interesting but most is not and generic.
Persona I guess is preference, but it did nothing more than standard highschool tropes for NPCs.
Personally Ive rarely seen a townsfolk's story to be engaging on any level. Doesnt help that towns tend to be silent outside of music and background noise. I feel like a lot of these issues could be fixed if Japanese games switched to the western way of doing NPC town dialogue, in which you walk by and hear a conversation.
Imagine walking into a bustling JRPG town where you can hear sellers yelling out their products, over hearing town gossip, get to close and they'll shoo you away. Passive NPC dialogue in games like GTA feel much more natural and engaging than slamming on the X button as you walk around town only to be met with boring dialogue you have to click through. It would also allow you to find out which NPCs have something more interesting to listen to instead of the randomness of picking and choosing.
Armitage Shanks
Member
The cutesy stuff I can take or leave but the creepy, sometimes downright disgusting sexualisation of pre-teen or young teen characters is downright wrong. That would put me off a game quickest.
Mind you, this is Japan. Over here it's "normal" to letch over the illegally young so it's not a trope that's going to go away any time soon, sadly.
Mind you, this is Japan. Over here it's "normal" to letch over the illegally young so it's not a trope that's going to go away any time soon, sadly.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Whoops wrong thread.
I think a lot of it just has to do with it being hard to get engaged in a Japanese games' story. It feels like you are constantly beat over the head that THIS IS A VIDEOGAME LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS! CLICK THROUGH THESE MENUS! WAIT YOUR TURN! CLICK THROUGH THIS DIALOGUE! YOU HAVE NEW EQUIPMENT BUT YOU STILL LOOK THE SAME! YOU CAN TELL HE'S MAD BECAUSE THERE IS AN EXCLAMATION POINT ON HIS HEAD! +1000 Points! add in that the message dialogue is in the same presentation as any other menu really draws me out of it....it really feels like enabling code instead of starting a conversation.
They just feel very gamey and any story is completely lost on me as I see the characters as more of walking stat boxes instead of "people"
They just feel very gamey and any story is completely lost on me as I see the characters as more of walking stat boxes instead of "people"
I think this sort of NPC interaction is more indicative of WRPGS now-a-days
Too right, fuck you Zork! You know you had it coming!