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This always bugs me in fantasy stories

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The_Technomancer said:
There's actually a small possibility of that. I don't know if what I'm about to say has ever been brought up by anyone before but Martin has a science fiction short story from the 80s that takes place on a planet with pseudo-medieval levels of culture and technology that experiences summer and winter in cycles lasting for years.

EDIT: Its called Bitterblooms
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I actually always wondered what the explanation for the long lasting seasons would be. Alway wondered if westeros was just a small part of something bigger.
 
Link Man said:
You might want to give the Shannara series a look.
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I love Terry Brooks and all but... I want to throttle him sometimes. His works usually go:

Story Progress-->Exposition-->Exposition-->Exposition-->Story Progress-->Exposition-->Weird usage of language-->Exposition-->Story Progress-->Someone dies(Story Progress!)-->Exposition-->Weird usage of language-->Social Commentary-->Exposition-->Story Progress-->Exposition! The End.

But I do agree he is not afraid to mix technology with high fantasy settings. With him though it tends to be more of a hint with his Shannara works and more Modern Fantasy with his Word and Void works. I guess I'm just not a fan of the Shannara series ever since he decided to lump the Word and Void series in with it. The Landover series is ok but that is pretty much exposition and having the main character act blind and clueless all the time.
 
KibblesBits said:
I love Terry Brooks and all but... I want to throttle him sometimes. His works usually go:

Story Progress-->Exposition-->Exposition-->Exposition-->Story Progress-->Exposition-->Weird usage of language-->Exposition-->Story Progress-->Someone dies(Story Progress!)-->Exposition-->Weird usage of language-->Social Commentary-->Exposition-->Story Progress-->Exposition! The End.

But I do agree he is not afraid to mix technology with high fantasy settings. With him though it tends to be more of a hint with his Shannara works and more Modern Fantasy with his Word and Void works. I guess I'm just not a fan of the Shannara series ever since he decided to lump the Word and Void series in with it. The Landover series is ok but that is pretty much exposition and having the main character act blind and clueless all the time.
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I agree with you on your assessment of Brooks and his mixing of the series. But I do remember reading Sword of Shannara when it came out and at one point realizing that the world they were in was a post-apocolpytic one. He doesn't expressly say that we nuked ourselves back to the stone age, but the subtext is there.
 
Lactose_Intolerant said:
Magic existed in the past so they didn't have a reason to get all technological. Once all the dragons died out, magic faded.

The maesters of the citadel are bringing back science.
They also killed all the dragons. They aren't going to be happy with Danny bringing back dragons and thus magic back into the world.
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I thought it was said the grandmaesters were interested in bringing back science only to hoard it for power. I would assume they've got a lot more held in secret than they let on.

ASoIaF is actually really bad for this trope, there's just no explaining it beyond saying magic ruined everything.
 
It's something I have a minor problem with as well. It's not like they don't have technology in most of these stories either. If catapults exist why stop there? And besides that there are always people coming up with new ideas in technology even if they aren't possible. Electricity really helped us as a species because it gave us power we could never control before. I see no reason one wouldn't harness magic abilities (which really would be treated as a branch of science anyway) and use it in conjunction with other technology.

Magic usually takes a lot out of a user so why not figure out ways to use it in small doses but with big results. Like a sort of gun, just use a bit of explosive magic to shoot a bullet or something. Or just make a gun as we know it and use that before magic is needed.

But if the world is defined enough or the story moves at a good pace I won't think about it too much (while I'm reading anyway).
 
I thought of this when watching Thor which has a nice blend of both. I assumed that a bunch of fantasy stories did incorporate both outside Star Wars which started out actually doing that too.
 
Kung Fu Jedi said:
I agree with you on your assessment of Brooks and his mixing of the series. But I do remember reading Sword of Shannara when it came out and at one point realizing that the world they were in was a post-apocolpytic one. He doesn't expressly say that we nuked ourselves back to the stone age, but the subtext is there.
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Exactly, he tended to hint at what happened in the far past in the first Shannara books which really drew me into the series. I loved Sword, Elfstones... etc. But he has now full on explained what came to pass and why and it is heavily 'connected' with his Word and Void series. If you haven't read those and want to know exactly what happened pick them up. This is where I simply lost interest in both series and haven't picked up a new one since.

I do tend to favor his Landover series though but even those have their flaws.
 
In the case of The Elder Scrolls I thoroughly enjoy how they handle this issue with the Dwemer. The way I understand it is this race of intellectuals came together and developed advanced technologies while the rest of civilization was stuck in the dark ages, starting with steam powered machines and then moving onto sophisticated robotics with a programmable soul gem interface; both of which remain operational after hundreds of years with no maintenance. Then there's this epic war, and the Dwemer just vanish. Had they not vanished, I'm certain there would be at least modern tech in the series by now.

As to why no other races have fully adapted their technology, I'm honestly not sure. It's probably mentioned somewhere in the lore, but I just figured it was like Final Fantasy X where "machinas" are forbidden for whatever reason.
 
If we had found out we could light and warm a house with a wave of our hands, we probably wouldn't have had the need to invent electricity, either.

I'd consider magic a vast improvement over much of what we consider advanced technology.
 
WanderingWind said:
If we had found out we could light and warm a house with a wave of our hands, we probably wouldn't have had the need to invent electricity, either.

I'd consider magic a vast improvement over much of what we consider advanced technology.
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I haven't read much fantasy, but magic is always painted as something that is rare so advancement would still be necessary.
 
JGS said:
I haven't read much fantasy, but magic is always painted as something that is rare so advancement would still be necessary.
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That depends, I suppose. But down that road leads steampunk. A genre people are sick of despite there being almost nothing in the actual genre representing it....thanks Justin.
 
As said some fantasy worlds take place after a great civilizational fall. They're in a period of decline or a fallow period where humanity is spread out and un-connected.

Some fantasy worlds have embarked on an alternate civilizational path. They don't embrace mass-production or conspicuous consumption. They live a simpler existance that maintains harmony with nature. Many elf stories use this model.

Fantasy worlds with high levels of magic are actually high-technology worlds, they have bypassed our level of technology and have discovered sources of power that aren't invasive or desruptive in nature. These civilizations may look rude or primative but but that is simply because they have no need to manipulate the world around them to achieve their ends.
 
WanderingWind said:
If we had found out we could light and warm a house with a wave of our hands, we probably wouldn't have had the need to invent electricity, either.

I'd consider magic a vast improvement over much of what we consider advanced technology.
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In some ways it's an advancement, but there are some places that are just ignored. Housing for instance. Insulation in the walls, double pane windows, light bulbs, etc. A lot of that stuff would make a world with magic even better. And usually magic does exhaust the user. It makes sense to develop tech to make magic use more efficient.
 
VistraNorrez said:
In some ways it's an advancement, but there are some places that are just ignored. Housing for instance. Insulation in the walls, double pane windows, light bulbs, etc. A lot of that stuff would make a world with magic even better. And usually magic does exhaust the user. It makes sense to develop tech to make magic use more efficient.
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Well, if you could just sort of wizard your place warm, we're not exactly beholding to the laws of thermodynamics, now are we? [insert appropriate smilie so you know I'm not totally serious]
 
RedSwirl said:
I understand that you probably don't need bullets when you can shoot fire out of your hand, but the only world I've seen take that to its logical conclusion is Harry Potter, in which wizards have developed magic to a point where their quality of life is at parity with the modern technological world. They, in a sense, have magic-based technology. It'd be cool to at least see other universes do that.
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Arcanum works it by trying to create some kind of scientific foundation for the properties of magic, or more specifically, the way magic disrupts technology. Technology is seen as mastery and harnessing of natural order, whereas magic is chaotic and unpredictable. The two struggle to co-exist, and create somewhat of a yin/yang situation.

In the game world, for example, an experienced magic user trying to fire a gun may have the device backfire or the rounds explode in their hands, as their resonating magic is interfering with natural physical and chemical reactions required for technological goods to operate.

One of the most simple examples of how this is woven into the game world is the introduction of the steam train. It's a technological marvel, as are all engines, but elves/magic users are required to sit in the furthest carriage (the 'back seat' of the bus) to lower the risk of the train derailing. Similarly, they're not allowed near factories or other industrial hot spots out of fear of their presence breaking the machinery.
 
I'm not sure whether this counts or not, but has anybody read China Mieville's Bas-Lag series? Magic and tech both influence each other and progress over the course of those novels--pretty interesting, really.
 
Forkball said:
The extreme lack of any technology or social advancement. Many fantasy stories have histories that span thousands of years, but pretty much everything is exactly the same technology-wise. Are you telling me no one in the history of Lord of the Rings thought up a gun? Or electricity? Or plumbing? Star Wars is the worst at this. KoTOR takes place thousands of years before the movies, but almost everything is the same. Other parts of the EU also fall into these conventions. They try to add something in that makes it seem older, but they just wind up with something ridiculous like lightsabers hooked up to a battery backpack.

Are there any fantasy stories that break this convention? Like one story that takes place in faux medieval times with wizards and magic and then later it's more hi-tech and sci fi?

Feel free to mention other things in genres that bug you.
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Read Vernor Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky. It's a far-distance hard science book in his post-Singularity series (it's actually the second book in that universe, but they aren't directly related to each other). Anyway, in that book he explains that there are different levels of technology between civilizations (planents) because societal progress ebbs and flows eventually crashing. That makes sense if you think about populations crashes. We haven't had a population crash yet, but when we do, I think it's quite reasonable that we'll fall back significantly technology-wise. In his universe, some civilizations and failed while others have not, no there are various levels of technology. Also, if you read his other book A Fire Upon the Deep (the "first" book - I haven't read the newest book Children of the Deep yet) - which takes places much further in the future - technology does actually advance significantly.
 
Noticed this shit in Star Wars and other fictional universes OP. Glad I'm not the only one who's bothered by this. I just chalk it up to all the scientists being dead.
 
Forkball said:
Are there any fantasy stories that break this convention? Like one story that takes place in faux medieval times with wizards and magic and then later it's more hi-tech and sci fi?
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One could argue that Masters of the Universe and Thundercats fit this category. Both universes have a mix of fantasy (Skeletor/Mumm-Ra) and technology (Man-At-Arms/spaceships).

The Marvel incarnation of Thor was also along these lines.
 
How come every person that gets transported to a magical world from Earth is white? Except for one example. And are ok with the lack of running water or indoor plumbing or no toilet paper?
 
Slayven said:
How come every person that gets transported to a magical world from Earth is white? Except for one example. And are ok with the lack of running water or indoor plumbing or no toilet paper?
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Probably because that particular subset of fantasy is especially terrible and it seems as though it's just a thin excuse for the author to make their dream of traveling to a magical world come true.

As for fantasy with technology, it has become extremely popular in the last few years: Urban Fantasy. Technology! Sidekicks! "Clever" dialogue! Action! Badass main character! Don't read this!
 
Verdre said:
As for fantasy with technology, it has become extremely popular in the last few years: Urban Fantasy. Technology! Sidekicks! "Clever" dialogue! Action! Badass main character! Don't read this!
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I hate how Urban Fantasy was completely appropriated by the paranormal romance subset. Charles de Lint and Terri Windling and their companions used to be under that heading, but then it was replaced with Mythic Fiction. Not even the Wikipedia page mentions this anymore.


I noticed some people complaining about there being no fantasy with high tech than medieval level. That simply isn't true. There are tons of books with societies in various levels of advancement. What I thought this was about was a lot of books don't show that progression, which I guess in a lot cases is just because a lot of those worlds just aren't that detailed.
 
JordanLMiller said:
Don't need electricity if you've got magic!
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Right but then most fantasy worlds bother to use the magic they have for half the reasons someone would come up if they had 30 minutes to brainstorm. Harry Potter pissed me off about how nonsensically people used magic. It's an excuse for stupid bullshit in theme, plot, and atmosphere.
 
Lissar said:
I hate how Urban Fantasy was completely appropriated by the paranormal romance subset. Charles de Lint and Terri Windling and their companions used to be under that heading, but then it was replaced with Mythic Fiction. Not even the Wikipedia page mentions this anymore.


I noticed some people complaining about there being no fantasy with high tech than medieval level. That simply isn't true. There are tons of books with societies in various levels of advancement. What I thought this was about was a lot of books don't show that progression, which I guess in a lot cases is just because a lot of those worlds just aren't that detailed.
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Dresden Files.....
 
In Star Trek you have the combined resources of hundreds of worlds. Yet they get their ass kicked by Klingons or Romulans at every turn. Sure, they could have conquered and expanded their Empire. But thats not taking into account the territory already held by Federation worlds before they were absorbed once membership was accepted.

Hell they were in a war with Cardassia for awhile. Thats like the US going to war with Iowa.
 
Lissar said:
You mean of books that could be considered Urban Fantasy? (Never read them...) Sure, there are a few, but I would say the majority could also be classified under Paranormal Romance. I mean look at this list: http://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/urban-fantasy (admittedly, lots of these are series.) At least Neverwhere is on that list. Sort of.
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Personally I enjoy "urban fantasy" more when its taking place in an actual fantasy setting with urbanization/industrialization rather then just "Earth but if fairies and vampires were real"

Its a shame the pacing in Perdido Street Station was so fucked, awesome book otherwise.
 
The_Technomancer said:
Personally I enjoy "urban fantasy" more when its taking place in an actual fantasy setting with urbanization/industrialization rather then just "Earth but if fairies and vampires were real"

Its a shame the pacing in Perdido Street Station was so fucked, awesome book otherwise.
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I like China Mieville, good writer (I hated the pacing as well... I swear it didn't really get going until page 600 or so.) I'd like to see more books like that as well, though when I do see them they aren't typically labeled under Urban Fantasy (it really is a very strict subgenre these days.)
 
Trojita said:
A lot of the technology ends up being powered by magic anyway.
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Sure. I had a concept for a fantasy world once where the vast majority of magic is just used as a source of power to run things mechanically and electrically, since magical efficiency decreases exponentially with the complexity of the applied task.
 
EatChildren said:
Arcanum works it by trying to create some kind of scientific foundation for the properties of magic, or more specifically, the way magic disrupts technology. Technology is seen as mastery and harnessing of natural order, whereas magic is chaotic and unpredictable. The two struggle to co-exist, and create somewhat of a yin/yang situation.

In the game world, for example, an experienced magic user trying to fire a gun may have the device backfire or the rounds explode in their hands, as their resonating magic is interfering with natural physical and chemical reactions required for technological goods to operate.

One of the most simple examples of how this is woven into the game world is the introduction of the steam train. It's a technological marvel, as are all engines, but elves/magic users are required to sit in the furthest carriage (the 'back seat' of the bus) to lower the risk of the train derailing. Similarly, they're not allowed near factories or other industrial hot spots out of fear of their presence breaking the machinery.
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I need to play this... you have talked so good about it for so long...
 
Magic replaces technology. There's nothing tech can do in a fantasy world that magic cannot do better. In a fantasy world without magic (there are some), there's really o excuse for this. But fantasy settings without magic that take place oer thousands of years is a pretty small cross-section of the genre.
 
Lissar said:
You mean of books that could be considered Urban Fantasy? (Never read them...) Sure, there are a few, but I would say the majority could also be classified under Paranormal Romance. I mean look at this list: http://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/urban-fantasy (admittedly, lots of these are series.) At least Neverwhere is on that list. Sort of.
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Ah, fair enough. I guess I misread your post. You should look into the Dresden Files though, fun books.
 
The_Technomancer said:
Also looking at the cover art on that list is hilarious.
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The cover art on them is actually one of my bigger book pet peeves! I mean I've read a few just to get an idea of what they were about (and to decide I didn't like them) but that cover art is just offensive! It's all naked tattooed backs and leather pants. I actually remember reading a post about it on Tor (at the height of my irritation with them) let's see... ah, here it is:

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/07/revisiting-the-tramp-stamp-phenomenon

Complete with video.
 
Lissar said:
The cover art on them is actually one of my bigger book pet peeves! I mean I've read a few just to get an idea of what they were about (and to decide I didn't like them) but that cover art is just offensive! It's all naked tattooed backs and leather pants. I actually remember reading a post about it on Tor (at the height of my irritation with them) let's see... ah, here it is:

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/07/revisiting-the-tramp-stamp-phenomenon

Complete with video.
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Its this decade's version of cheesy fantasy novel covers, only not cheesily awesome.
 
The_Technomancer said:
Its this decade's version of cheesy fantasy novel covers, only not cheesily awesome.
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True enough. Maybe I'm just an old-fogey but I love those old covers. Oh Darrel K. Sweet... you'll always have a special place in my heart. Speaking of which, he died a few days ago!? Holy shit! Why does everyone have to die... now my day is a sad one.
 
JonStark said:
I actually always wondered what the explanation for the long lasting seasons would be. Alway wondered if westeros was just a small part of something bigger.
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My assumption is that they live on a planet which has a severe axial tilt, causing long winters and long summers.
 
viciouskillersquirrel said:
The only thing that really bugs me about fantasy stories is how conveniently stable culture and language are over such long periods of time. I can buy that Westeros has a common language, but not that a man can read scrolls written 1000 years ago with no translation.

Any of you read an untranslated Chaucer or Beowulf? Sh*t's incomprehensible yo.
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Most of that stuff is done by maesters who are basically the equivalent of university academics. Whose to say they don't translate things? Plus, I am sure a lot of the nobility are encouraged to read and write in multiple languages, as was the case in Europe. Maybe they specifically teach older versions of the common tongue to their elite?
 
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