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[MilkyJoe]

I think the point is that you're a bad pet owner if you just let your pet run around other people's property. Dogs, mice, birds, turtles, fish... we don't tolerate any of these types of pet roaming unsupervised so why should fucking cats of all things get a pass?



You don't think placing animal life above Human life is a tad unbalanced?

1) I'm not a bad pet owner. I care for my pets, they only eat the highest quality food, I have had them neutered, so they behave and mostly stay within my back yard and they trust me without question. Where I live it is accepted that you let your cat out, the shelter will only let you adopt a cat if it has sufficient and safe outside space. Cats are not dogs, if you don't have the outside space to keep it entertained then don't get a cat! That is going against the cat's very nature and that makes for a bad cat owner.

2) Not generally but I would make exceptions.

 

[Risible]

I love how everyone called out Sir Fragula for daring to suggest cats can be vermin, and yet the two guys who suggested we should poison or shoot people who poison cats....not a peep about them.

Poisoning animals is wrong. Failing to recognize that free roaming pets can be problematic isn't helping the situation. And feral cats are a huge problem.

 

[highrider]

Declawing is illegal in the UK. It's barbaric and insane, and seems to be a mostly american concept thankfully. But it simply isn't possible to train a cat to stay in one back garden - it's a cat. If you let them out, at some point they *will* go wandering (one of ours stayd just in our garden for years and was completely happy, but eventually something made him look over a wall and now he wanders constantly).

It sounds like the UK has a culture that respects cats, unfortunately I'm American and it isn't the case here. I still think that free roaming cats are invasions to the privacy of others and significantly heighten the risk of accidental death and injury.

 

[Maledict]

That's because all your vulnerable wildlife was killed long ago.

Um, we have 3 cats, 2 go outside (one is a pedigree so doesn't), and we had over 30 species of bird visit our gardnen this spring (we're part of the UK national bird watching exercise to track bird migrations and presence in the country). Additionally we have like a billion squirrels.

Cats impact on an urban environmental ecosystem is so wildly overstated it's beyond a joke, especially in countries like the UK where they are no longer considered an invasive species. In a total of 8 years our cats have killed one bird in total - a fat, lame feral pidgeon that literally fell into the garden. That and a few mice.

I live in the centre of London for christ sakes and see more birds and wildlife than I did living back in Lancashire.

 

[DarkFlow]

I love how everyone called out Sir Fragula for daring to suggest cats can be vermin, and yet the two guys who suggested we should poison or shoot people who poison cats....not a peep about them.

Poisoning animals is wrong. Failing to recognize that free roaming pets can be problematic isn't helping the situation. And feral cats are a huge problem.

Go read the Lion thread. I now fear some of the people who post here.

 

[kswiston]

So since cats kill mice and birds, they should be forced to be indoors? What exactly are you basing this argument on? Are they killing too many rodents and birds, so that the ecosystem is about to collapse? Are they killing cute mice and you don't like it? What's the problem?

Cats have directly caused the extinction of dozens of species. Here is a short article pointing out the effect of free roaming cats.

http://www.philipcarr-gomm.com/cats-blamed-for-the-extinction-of-33-species/

 

[Risible]

Where I live it is accepted that you let your cat out, the shelter will only let you adopt a cat if it has sufficient and safe outside space. Cats are not dogs, if you don't have the outside space to keep it entertained then don't get a cat!

I call bullshit on a shelter insisting you keep a car outdoors. Having worked at a couple of them I have never heard of such a thing. Are you from the states?

 

[Alucrid]

I always love the idea that cats that can't run around outside are depressed and ultimately going to od on pills because we they're eternally trapped inside

 

[Septimius]

I'm a cat owner and love them, but cats shouldn't be allowed to free roam unless in a rural setting, even then you are taking your chances. I wouldn't waste my energy trying to convince people of that though. It's a combination of laziness and ignorance. It's like declawing, it's just easy to let your cat out as opposed to taking your cat outside and making sure it stays in your yard. It's easier to amputate the claw tip than cat proof your house or teach them. You could reel off a million reasons why both of these practices are bad things to do, but it's futile.

Allowing a cat to be happy is a bad thing to do? I've had cats my whole life, our two latest are only indoors, but I was ecstatic the day my mother bought a cabin within driving distance, so my cats could be outdoors, too. I've seen them there. They love it. They're not super adventurous, so they tend to be around the cabin, but they absolutely adore being outside. Placing restrictions to where they go and what they do is normally considered cruel. I feel the same way with having indoor cats. I make sure they are stimulated inside, but it's just not the same as roaming free. It is what cats do. They're not typical pack animals, and they have huuuge areas they roam in. Dogs are domesticated. Cats aren't.

Of course you take your chances when your cats roam free. I'm aware that at the cabin they might be attacked by wild-life, dogs, ran over, or otherwise injure or even kill themselves. But it's worth the exchange with them being allowed to be in their right element. I should not, however, have to take my chances with people killing cats because they don't like them.

I only really see ignorance from your side. There's nothing I know of cat behaviour, emotions or genetics that relate to anything you say that it's lazy to let cats roam free outside. You're saying you should remain with them and impose boundaries upon them. It's unnatural for cats to have that. They're, again, not domesticated like dogs, so they don't understand boundaries as anything other than being bereft of the freedom they wish to have.

 

[PedroPanache]

Declawing is illegal in the UK. It's barbaric and insane, and seems to be a mostly american concept thankfully. But it simply isn't possible to train a cat to stay in one back garden - it's a cat. If you let them out, at some point they *will* go wandering (one of ours stayd just in our garden for years and was completely happy, but eventually something made him look over a wall and now he wanders constantly).

Yeah, culturally there's a huge difference in the way cats are perceived in the UK than, say, the US. You'll find the odd person grumbling about it ruining their perfect tulips, but for the most part, people are happy for cats to free roam. Free roaming cats in the UK are common place and we're pretty much all fine with that. That said, if you're going to let your cat out, the least you could do is get it neutered or spayed. The idea that cats should be treated and perceived in the same way as dogs is strange to us.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

People who are complaining about animals crossing their land 2 questions for you
Do all animals on your land irritate you? birds? small vermin? slugs? snails? dogs? or is it just cats?

and

How do you expect animals to know its your land? animals mark territory with scents so they know territorial boundaries, humans do not we have deeds and picket fences, which mean nothing to an animal.

The concept of ownership of land only extends to humans, it doesn't extend to animals or any element of nature, a cat doesn't know its your land, neither does a weather formation, being annoyed at an animal crossing your territory is utterly silly - to keep up with the plant angle, passing animals take pollen onto their fur that is the spread along their root, this is how plants cross pollinate - to demand no animal crosses through your plants is in effect limiting your plants, and before we go down the digging it up root, cats bury their faecal matter which then fertilises soil, they do not dig up anything, moles, goafers and dogs frequently dig up land

As for disliking pets and by extension animals - really? maybe you should move to a inner city concrete jungle there's less likely to be animals there.

I'm utterly amazed people have no compassion and sense of worth for an animal, or only for dogs

 

[CrocMother]

Um, we have 3 cats, 2 go outside (one is a pedigree so doesn't), and we had over 30 species of bird visit our gardnen this spring (we're part of the UK national bird watching exercise to track bird migrations and presence in the country). Additionally we have like a billion squirrels.

Cats impact on an urban environmental ecosystem is so wildly overstated it's beyond a joke, especially in countries like the UK where they are no longer considered an invasive species. In a total of 8 years our cats have killed one bird in total - a fat, lame feral pidgeon that literally fell into the garden. That and a few mice.

I live in the centre of London for christ sakes and see more birds and wildlife than I did living back in Lancashire.

You have no idea how many animals your cats kill. Studies have shown that they bring less than a quarter of their kills back to their residence. Also, they don't just kill birds also reptiles, amphibians and small mammals.

 

[Maledict]

In the UK (which is where the original poster is from) this is generally the accepted view. Battersea Cats and Dogs Home, the most famous animal rescue centre in the country, state that: "Most cats need access to a garden but indoor cats, who do not have the mental stimulation provided by the outside world, can become bored and stressed". They generally won't foster a cat with someone for indoor use only unless it's a specific breed or exceptional circumstances.

If you have ever had an indoor cat and started to let them go outside you will have seen a huge shift in their personality and activity levels.

(P.S. The UK generally loves pets. We are a nation of animal lovers. The Royal Society for the Protection of Animals was set up decades before the Royal Society for the Protection of Children).

 

[Maledict]

You have no idea how many animals your cats kill. Studies have shown that they bring less than a quarter of their kills back to their residence. Also, they don't just kill birds also reptiles, amphibians and small mammals.

You are all referring to the same single study based on cats in rural Georgia. We are talking about the UK.

And, as others have pointed out, there are numerous issues with that study...

 

[PdotMichael]

Cats need space, a lot of space even. It's just sad to force a cat in a small flat.

Cats maybe the worst popular animals to have in our modern society.

 

[Abounder]

What's with this UK vs USA culture subplot? Both countries are pet lovers and cat roaming is more common than not. Cat killers like this one in the UK are exceptions to the norm

 

[Noobcraft]

I don't think poisoning cats is the right thing to do, but if I had a cat taking dumps in the lawn my kid plays in I'd be pretty upset. Cats commonly carry diseases that are transmittable to humans, and their feces spread those diseases.

 

[Coins]

You are all referring to the same single study based on cats in rural Georgia. We are talking about the UK.

And, as others have pointed out, there are numerous issues with that study...

Yeah, you guys. Cats and animals live harmoniously in the UK like one big Disney movie!

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Apparently indoor-outdoor cats are the norm in the UK. Makes a little bit if sense I guess since there are no big predators on the island. But in the US it is generally advised to keep cats indoors always. Better for their health (cars, coyotes, wolves, etc).

 

[CrocMother]

You are all referring to the same single study based on cats in rural Georgia. We are talking about the UK.

And, as others have pointed out, there are numerous issues with that study...

Right, it's trumped by your observation that there seems to be wildlife everywhere.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Cats have directly caused the extinction of dozens of species. Here is a short article pointing out the effect of free roaming cats.

http://www.philipcarr-gomm.com/cats-blamed-for-the-extinction-of-33-species/

A blog post by a druid with a degree in human psychology who lives in rural Surrey.....
How exactly does a spiritual man with a psychology degree have any expertise in the area of ecology and wildlife? that's an article from a person who dislikes cats and is trying to use his education and vocabulary to make him sound like he is speaking from a knowledgeable and authoritative position
He's selectively chosen articles to fit his view point, articles which if followed to their source even say there is no evidence of cats causing ecological damage

 

[Risible]

(P.S. The UK generally loves pets. We are a nation of animal lovers. The Royal Society for the Protection of Animals was set up decades before the Royal Society for the Protection of Children).

See, to me that's a fact that I would think one would never mention as a pet owner. It really highlights the insanity that surrounds pet ownership.

And yes,I am one, but I don't agree with the whole idea that a pet is an important part of the family in the same way that the human members are.

 

[highrider]

Allowing a cat to be happy is a bad thing to do? I've had cats my whole life, our two latest are only indoors, but I was ecstatic the day my mother bought a cabin within driving distance, so my cats could be outdoors, too. I've seen them there. They love it. They're not super adventurous, so they tend to be around the cabin, but they absolutely adore being outside. Placing restrictions to where they go and what they do is normally considered cruel. I feel the same way with having indoor cats. I make sure they are stimulated inside, but it's just not the same as roaming free. It is what cats do. They're not typical pack animals, and they have huuuge areas they roam in. Dogs are domesticated. Cats aren't.

Of course you take your chances when your cats roam free. I'm aware that at the cabin they might be attacked by wild-life, dogs, ran over, or otherwise injure or even kill themselves. But it's worth the exchange with them being allowed to be in their right element. I should not, however, have to take my chances with people killing cats because they don't like them.

I only really see ignorance from your side. There's nothing I know of cat behaviour, emotions or genetics that relate to anything you say that it's lazy to let cats roam free outside. You're saying you should remain with them and impose boundaries upon them. It's unnatural for cats to have that. They're, again, not domesticated like dogs, so they don't understand boundaries as anything other than being bereft of the freedom they wish to have.

All I can say is that they are pets, bred to be domesticated. You wouldn't let a powerful dog roam free because it would be an obvious danger to society. Imagine if your cat was the size of a cougar, nobody would question the inherent danger. As it stands, they are smaller, possibly annoyances to your neighbors and are predators that would otherwise not exist not for human intervention.

 

[Noobcraft]

Apparently indoor-outdoor cats are the norm in the UK. Makes a little bit if sense I guess since there are no big predators on the island. But in the US it is generally advised to keep cats indoors always. Better for their health (cars, coyotes, wolves, etc).

I once had someone call in to my work (I worked at a lumberyard in the US) from a woman looking for eagle repellant because eagles kept flying off with her kittens.

 

[Septimius]

I always love the idea that cats that can't run around outside are depressed and ultimately going to od on pills because we they're eternally trapped inside

This is reducto ad absurdum. There's cultural differences in the views of indoors vs roaming cats, but reducing the entire argument down to this does not help the discussion what so ever. Cats naturally have huge territories and areas they roam. In keeping a pet, it is the responsibility of its owner to not needlessly suppress the natural instincts of that pet. I don't necessarily view it as 'cruel' to keep an indoor cat, but given the deprivation of a lot of a cats natural behaviour, I could certainly see why many are against having indoor cats. Having experienced five cats' lives, I've certainly seen the benefits of outside roaming on their mood and their mental welfare. I began taking one cat out for 'cat walks', since we live in the city where he can't roam by himself. He became so frustrated with not being able to go out when he wanted after that, that he decided to seek adventure in a way he hadn't done in 16 years prior. He jumped onto the roof of the five story tall building, and eventually slipped due to rain, and fell to his demise. There's something about "what you don't know" in that, but it also shows what at least that cat wanted to do more than anything. At the same time I had a cat that preferred laying on laps. The times she could go outside, she stayed around the house.

 

[kswiston]

A blog post by a druid with a degree in human psychology who live in rural Surrey.....
How exactly does a spiritual man with a psychology degree have any expertise in the area of ecology and wildlife? that's an article from a person who dislikes cats and is trying to use his education and vocabulary to make him sound like he is speaking from a knowledgeable and authoritative position

The data he is quoting came from the IUCN. Some of you are coming off like climate change deniers. I like cats too but pretending they have little impact on wildlife when allowed to roam free is delusional.

 

[DOG3NZAKA]

Poisoning them etc is clearly out of line.

At the same time keep your animal on your own property.

This

Killing the poor creature is excessive and just crazy. However, respect your neighbors. I don't care if it's an "outdoor" cat. My space isn't yours. If I wanted a cat in it, I'd get my own.

 

[antonz]

You know why I don't want your cats out and free to roam?

I like the birds. I enjoy when spring comes around and I suddenly have dozens of young birds running around in the backyard getting their first taste of life.

I don't enjoy going out into my backyard and finding what looks like a crime scene with blood and bird parts all over the fucking place.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I call bullshit on a shelter insisting you keep a car outdoors. Having worked at a couple of them I have never heard of such a thing. Are you from the states?

Call bullshit all you want, the RSPCA send out someone to your house to inspect your property, location and outside space before they will let you adopt. Like the poster a few above mentioned, in the UK cats are not treated as vermin and respected and protected

 

[Septimius]

All I can say is that they are pets, bred to be domesticated. You wouldn't let a powerful dog roam free because it would be an obvious danger to society. Imagine if your cat was the size of a cougar, nobody would question the inherent danger. As it stands, they are smaller, possibly annoyances to your neighbors and are predators that would otherwise not exist not for human intervention.

They aren't really bred to be domesticated. There are tons of articles explaining that, like this one: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...never-be-as-domesticated-as-dogs-9858889.html

Cats would most definitely exist without human intervention. It would be comparable to having a cat as to actually having a cougar. Everyone understands that that would be a risk to dogs and people, and as such, we don't have cougars as pets. We have cats. Cats that are a danger to mice, rats and birds. None of those do anything to counter the lack of understanding I argue you're displaying.

 

[CrocMother]

Here's a study done on the impact of cats in urban areas in the UK (Bristol). The density of cats there was 221/sq. km, with each cat recording an average of 21 kills per year. However, that number is low as it only counts that which the cats brought back to the residence and the owners observed.

21x221= a conservative estimate of 4,600 kills by cats/year/sq.km.

They adversely target juveniles in the spring and summer

 

[Monochromaticx]

Surely some sort of repellent is a much better solution if you dont want cats on your property.

 

[optimiss]

Since when is some fucking vegetables more important than any living creatures life? Just put a fence around your garden and watch your kids better. It is crazy the lengths people will go to to get what they want regardless of anyone else.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I once had someone call in to my work (I worked at a lumberyard in the US) from a woman looking for eagle repellant because eagles kept flying off with her kittens.

Yeah, I've seen eagles carry off groundhogs. If they can take a groundhog they can definitely take a cat.

 

[PdotMichael]

Children aren't living creatures confirmed.

 

[Somnid]

The more I learn about cats, the more I understand that they really need to be indoors. Hugely invasive species. Of course you shouldn't really poison anything but the most stubborn and dangerous pests, even mice and rats I wouldn't just because it's a danger to other things to have poison lying around. And certainly you shouldn't be trying to kill or injure other people's pets. That said unless you're a hardcore bird watcher or something I don't see why anyone would care about a cat. They don't dig stuff up, they don't damage structures, they bury their poop (and it should be a decent natural fertilizer) I suppose they can pick fights with other cats but again cats really shouldn't be outdoors unless you're okay with that.

 

[Coins]

Since when is some fucking vegetables more important than any living creatures life? Just put a fence around your garden and watch your kids better. It is crazy the lengths people will go to to get what they want regardless of anyone else.

You shouldnt have to watch for the neighbors vermin when the kids are in their own yard playing.

 

[antonz]

Children aren't living creatures confirmed.

You have to realize by now Human Beings rank lower than animals to lots of people these days. If the loss of human life registered the outrage animals do the world would be a much more peaceful place

 

[Maledict]

Here's a study done on the impact of cats in urban areas in the UK (Bristol). The density of cats there was 221/sq. km, with each cat recording an average of 21 kills per year. However, that number is low as it only counts that which the cats brought back to the residence and the owners observed.

21x221= a conservative estimate of 4,600 kills by cats/year/sq.km.

They adversely target juveniles in the spring and summer

Yep, and the main victims were mice and sparrows. Hardly on the endangered list...

I know I keep going on about it, and I'm sorry for that, but the reason I keep referring to the USA and the UK is because this is one of those things which is fundamentally different between the two - both in terms of attitudes, expectations and even the general wildlife setting. Cats are not eradicating species in the mainland UK - nor are they being attacked by eagles and coyotes. Our countries are *very* different in this small little area, and so it's a very different conversation than if the original poster were in the USA.

 

[zigg]

They fucking bury it. People that complain about cat shit in their garden are probably finding fox shit.

Actually, my cat explicitly doesn't

He never goes outdoors though

 

[Septimius]

I live in a country were birds are a cultural heritage. Cats have had an important role in our agricultural history. They've lived in our barns forever, keeping vermin away, helping us keeping our crops edible and sanitized. My girlfriend's family have a farm, and they have a cat. It lives in the barn. It doesn't go inside. It's sociable, and likes to say hello, but is never inside the house. It's likely how it used to be.

Many people argue that wildlife is endangered by cats. I cannot vouch for the validity of this, for while cats hunt for pleasure, so do all predators. They always have. That behaviour hasn't changed. If the problem is that we have too many cats, then that needs to be addressed. Not in the way of enforcing them to be inside, but by enforcing that all cats can have the rights cats should have. Cats are not a new thing. It's apparent from this thread that the US lacks the same cultural heritage, which is very understandable. However, seeing the entitlement many show about "cats should not be on my property" are nothing but a showcase of how far removed we are from nature, to the point that we impose shit like that onto nature to the extent that we wish them harm. For being cats.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

The data he is quoting came from the IUCN. Some of you are coming off like climate change deniers. I like cats too but pretending they have little impact on wildlife when allowed to roam free is delusional.

No, the data isn't from IUCN. It's from the article the BBC article is referring to.

Edit: Actually, he claims it's from that article but I can't find the quote in it.

 

[CortexVortex]

"Vermin"? What the hell is wrong with people in this thread?

 

[Abounder]

Vermin? What the hell is wrong with people in this thread?

Yea, where's the love for rats? They're smart, furry, and can also be good pets...

 

[Septimius]

Here's a study done on the impact of cats in urban areas in the UK (Bristol). The density of cats there was 221/sq. km, with each cat recording an average of 21 kills per year. However, that number is low as it only counts that which the cats brought back to the residence and the owners observed.

21x221= a conservative estimate of 4,600 kills by cats/year/sq.km.

They adversely target juveniles in the spring and summer

Cats kill birds and rodents. Is this somehow disrupting the ecosystem? Cats have always killed birds and rodents.

Yea, where's the love for rats? They're smart, furry, and can also be good pets...

Yay, reducto ad absurdum. I'm so happy to see that people are able to keep a discussion going in a proper way. This is the stupidest post I've read all day.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

The data he is quoting came from the IUCN. Some of you are coming off like climate change deniers. I like cats too but pretending they have little impact on wildlife when allowed to roam free is delusional.

ICUN data refers to feral cats in non urban areas - regardless of his source data is he a qualified person as a human psychologist to be producing articles on ecological damage by cats? that's like a Lawyer posting an article about drag coefficients of sports cars
Climate change deniers? no, but when people come in this thread and claim each cat kills HUNDRED a month and d

Here's a study done on the impact of cats in urban areas in the UK (Bristol). The density of cats there was 221/sq. km, with each cat recording an average of 21 kills per year. However, that number is low as it only counts that which the cats brought back to the residence and the owners observed.

21x221= a conservative estimate of 4,600 kills by cats/year/sq.km.

They adversely target juveniles in the spring and summer

Now that is a believable study, on average 4600 kills by cats (plural) per year per sq.km, a number not unlike an average natural predator, far more believable than each cat killing hundreds a month
and then using that as justification for saying poisoning is understandable! by that logic we should start culling any predatory animal

Still see nobody who made the claims about animals on their land has addressed my question on how an animal knows its your land

And i'd like to point out (for UK folk) fox poo looks almost identical to cat poo (obviously to the untrained eye), so its perhaps more likely its foxes pooping in the open on lawns, cats bury it or poo in hedge lines

 

[Jill Sandwich]

This thread makes me feel I'm in a different dimension. There are loads of local cats near me, just hanging around and doing cat things. They don't bother me, I don't bother them unless one comes up to be petted. They may prey on birds and rodents, but that's because it's their nature. I can't fathom people wanting to do harm to them.

 

[Noobcraft]

"Vermin"? What the hell is wrong with people in this thread?

"Vermin: wild mammals and birds that are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or that carry disease, e.g., foxes, rodents, and insect pests."

Cats are absolutely capable of falling into that role. Most animals can fit that description under the right circumstances.

 

[Abounder]

Cats kill birds and rodents. Is this somehow disrupting the ecosystem? Cats have always killed birds and rodents.



Yay, reducto ad absurdum. I'm so happy to see that people are able to keep a discussion going in a proper way. This is the stupidest post I've read all day.

Cats also piss and shit everywhere and spread disease. I'm surprised that my fellow pet owners have hate against vermin, they're awesome pets too.

 

[AxeMan]

Um, we have 3 cats, 2 go outside (one is a pedigree so doesn't), and we had over 30 species of bird visit our gardnen this spring (we're part of the UK national bird watching exercise to track bird migrations and presence in the country). Additionally we have like a billion squirrels.

Cats impact on an urban environmental ecosystem is so wildly overstated it's beyond a joke, especially in countries like the UK where they are no longer considered an invasive species. In a total of 8 years our cats have killed one bird in total - a fat, lame feral pidgeon that literally fell into the garden. That and a few mice.

I live in the centre of London for christ sakes and see more birds and wildlife than I did living back in Lancashire.

Cats in my city killed more than 67 different species, and between 380,000 and 600,000 animals each year.

And to add... I don't want any animal taking a dump in my yard, be it a bird, possum, rat, mouse or cat. If you own the animal that takes a dump in my yard I will be taking that dump and putting it in your yard