I've never had a cart or disc fail on me yet that wasn't my fault, hard drives I've had 2 fail in the last 2-3 years.
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This is why i'm afraid of a Digital Future
- Thread starter Zee-Row
- Start date
I've never had a cart or disc fail on me yet that wasn't my fault, hard drives I've had 2 fail in the last 2-3 years.
EternalGamer
Banned
And I've never lost access to digitally purchased goods. I'd be willing to bet you haven't either. It is all hypothetical. That's his point.
My guess is that on the whole in terms of percentages a lot more people have had physical goods stolen, lost broken, than have lost access to digital goods.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Honestly the less I worry about the packrat mentality of collecting media the happier I am. Maybe its just a general shifting of priorities after starting a career and a family that has lessened the opportunity to actually consume the media I have collected in the past, but I hardly feel the need to "own" any media at all.
In the past couple years the only times I've gone back into my collection and picked up an old game was Ouendan for the DS and Halo 3. The only reason I was playing Halo 3 was because my friend lost his physical copy of Reach so that was the only way we could play together online. The only reason I was playing Ouendan was because Theatrhythm pissed me off by not being as good and I lost my copy of Ouendan 2.
And it's not like I don't indulge in video game nostalgia or anything. The 8-4 SNES retrospective was amazing, but I didn't really feel the need to go play Terranigma or Secret of Mana again. If I'm feeling really nostalgic I'll go check out a video on youtube, and 9 times out of 10 that scratches the nostalgia itch even better than digging out the console or firing up the emulator and playing it myself. You can bypass all of the tedious bullshit and get right to the actually memorable parts. So I understand the pangs of "oh man what if I really want to play this game 3 years from now, what will I do?" but that's not necessarily a healthy thing to worry about. Your videogame collection is mostly just a security blanket.
In the past couple years the only times I've gone back into my collection and picked up an old game was Ouendan for the DS and Halo 3. The only reason I was playing Halo 3 was because my friend lost his physical copy of Reach so that was the only way we could play together online. The only reason I was playing Ouendan was because Theatrhythm pissed me off by not being as good and I lost my copy of Ouendan 2.
And it's not like I don't indulge in video game nostalgia or anything. The 8-4 SNES retrospective was amazing, but I didn't really feel the need to go play Terranigma or Secret of Mana again. If I'm feeling really nostalgic I'll go check out a video on youtube, and 9 times out of 10 that scratches the nostalgia itch even better than digging out the console or firing up the emulator and playing it myself. You can bypass all of the tedious bullshit and get right to the actually memorable parts. So I understand the pangs of "oh man what if I really want to play this game 3 years from now, what will I do?" but that's not necessarily a healthy thing to worry about. Your videogame collection is mostly just a security blanket.
In the past, Sony has also temporarily removed PSN games that were affected by PSP exploits. This by itself would be fine, if they didn't also remove download rights. I don't trust them at all with DD.
I understand they want to protect their platform, but if a user has already paid for a game you don't lock them out from downloading it because your programmers are incompetent when it comes to security. So what if a few more people get to run emulators on their Vita, don't block everyone from downloading a game they paid for.
So far, no other DD service has given me a reason not to trust them. Steam has removed several games over the years but I can still download them all.
I understand they want to protect their platform, but if a user has already paid for a game you don't lock them out from downloading it because your programmers are incompetent when it comes to security. So what if a few more people get to run emulators on their Vita, don't block everyone from downloading a game they paid for.
So far, no other DD service has given me a reason not to trust them. Steam has removed several games over the years but I can still download them all.
abstract alien
Member
To be fair, I think it's just a matter of expectations.
fabricated backlash
Member
But thanks to the severe lack of consumer rights in place for digital distribution, it is unfortunately well within their rights.
Can't wait for some comprehensive laws to get this wild west bullshit in check.
KDash31987
Member
Yeah, I don't trust digital content, especially after I lost a bunch of stuff I bought for my original Xbox when my first one's hard drive died. Now that the original Xbox Live has been down for awhile, I was never able to get any of it back. It's lost forever, unless I hack my Xbox or something and obtain them from third-party sources.
This is why I generally refrain from buying downloads now, especially if I can get them physically...and I can only imagine how bad it'll be when support for the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 goes away. If anything happens to your system or data...well, bye bye!
As someone who loves to collect video games (I never get rid of any of them), this is something I'm really not looking forward to.
I do still have a bunch of downloadable games...but that's mostly because I got them free from contests, code give aways, the PSN thing last year, or my brother decided to buy them. Heh.
This is why I generally refrain from buying downloads now, especially if I can get them physically...and I can only imagine how bad it'll be when support for the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 goes away. If anything happens to your system or data...well, bye bye!
As someone who loves to collect video games (I never get rid of any of them), this is something I'm really not looking forward to.
I do still have a bunch of downloadable games...but that's mostly because I got them free from contests, code give aways, the PSN thing last year, or my brother decided to buy them. Heh.
Marty Chinn
Member
The difference with a HDD is that it can result in mechanical failure from just normal usage due to a number of components and moving parts. Even if you take care of it with absolute care, it can fail beyond your control. A game cartridge or disc won't have that issue.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Actually DD let me play at least one classic game I never would have had the chance to otherwise. One time in my life, just once, I saw an actual physical copy of Guardian Heroes at a used game store, but I didn't have any cash on me. When I came back the next day, it was gone. Finally got to play that game on XBox live. Hahaha I was actually pretty meh about it. Maybe tracking down and paying $100 or whatever for a physical copy would have increased my enjoyment of the game? I've also seen far more movies and TV shows through DD then I ever would have if I was still in the habit of collecting DVDs.
I'm ready for an all digital future. Netflix model for everything (Only, for games I would want it actually on my hard drive. PS Plus model?) I don't even care if licensing deals make one game or another drop out of this hypothetical service at one time or another. Given enough content on the service, you're always going to have something you want to play.
I'm ready for an all digital future. Netflix model for everything (Only, for games I would want it actually on my hard drive. PS Plus model?) I don't even care if licensing deals make one game or another drop out of this hypothetical service at one time or another. Given enough content on the service, you're always going to have something you want to play.
You've never owned shit.
If a physical game disc breaks, you can always go on online and buy a replacement.
If digital download servers get shut down and you lose your backups (if the DRM even allows backups), you are screwed. There will be no legitimate way to replace PSN/XBLA games 5-10 years down the line when they take content offline.
If digital download servers get shut down and you lose your backups (if the DRM even allows backups), you are screwed. There will be no legitimate way to replace PSN/XBLA games 5-10 years down the line when they take content offline.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
The whole point of this thread is that people are losing access to digitally purchased goods. Just because it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't mean it'll never happen.
Someone coming in your house and stealing something of yours isn't the same thing. This is more like if I went and bought a comic book and one day a few years down the line DC came to my house and said "We're shutting down your reading privileges on this book. You're not allowed to look at it anymore. Unless you go out and buy another copy of course." One is bad luck and an outside influence and the other is a shitty business practice that takes access to something away for doing absolutely nothing wrong.
And I know keeping the service up costs money and at some point it'll get hut down because the cost outweighs the money it brings in. But that's the EXACT problem. I shouldn't have to worry about my hard drive breaking down and losing everything when I paid money for something because they decided to take my access away.
It's not like physical media because they're literally just denying you access to something you already paid for. Maybe I just don't want to buy a new hard drive and I delete those comics until I want to read them again. Now I have to either go buy a new hard drive to store everything or lose the access to ever see it again? Whereas if I scratch a disc it's completely MY fault and the consequence is that I either never play it again or pony up the money to buy it again.
Marty Chinn
Member
I've lost access to my Singstar content.
Canis lupus
Member
The revolution will be digitised.
fabricated backlash
Member
Ultimately it will. Right now it's a playground for anti consumer corporations who run wild without laws to protect customers from shit like this. The EU is going in the right direction but it's still baby steps when we would need 7mile boots.
Rodney McKay
Member
It's really not, though. If you have the comic on your device you will still be able to read it, the same way that if you have the physical comic in your house.
Now that you can't redownload the comics, you are basically back to the same situation as a physical comic. If the data of the comic is destroyed (loss of data on the digital version, loss of paper of the physical version) it is gone unless you pay for another copy of it, whether it's digital or physical.
It's not all pretty on the retail side either. Yeah you won't be able to buy this content anymore, but people who already own it will be able to download it again whenever they want (at least on Steam and gog). Try getting your hands on a copy of System Shock 2 these days, and if your copy breaks or is defective your shit out of luck.
There's lots of problems that need to be addressed in regards to owning digital media and content accounts. I'm worried about it, but not enough to stop going digital, it just has so many advantages to physical from a non-collectors POV.
This is why it was a relief to see the EU court ruling that reselling of used digital media has to be possible. It's dangerous ground and knowing nothing about legislature I just assume it will be modified in the future, but it was a clear ruling in favour of owning what you buy, regardless of sketchy user agreements.
This is why it was a relief to see the EU court ruling that reselling of used digital media has to be possible. It's dangerous ground and knowing nothing about legislature I just assume it will be modified in the future, but it was a clear ruling in favour of owning what you buy, regardless of sketchy user agreements.
You never owned anything more than a shiny disc anyway. You've rented all the media you've ever "owned". Technology is just catching up with the law.
Burned CDs/DVDs are not the same as pressed CDs/DVDs. The former will be unreadable after some years, the latter won't be. I burned CDs not even 10 years ago, which are unreadable nowadays, some were even unreadable after 5 years. On the other hand - I own pressed Audio CDs from 20 years ago and they still work. I also own games on CDs from 20 years ago, still work as well. Main problem with pressed CDs/DVDs are scratches and taking care of them is the solution.
I came for the entitled post. I was not disappointed.
And no, enterprise level servers don't take a hell a lot of maintenance and little things also aren't always going wrong with them. If that's the case, then you got incompetent staff. Sure, that stuff needs people that take care of it. But Sony already has the PSN shop servers up and running. A few servers more or less aren't a big deal. They just don't get more money by leaving them on, so they shut them down. Which is understandable business-wise, but it's shitty consumer treatment and I hope more people will understand that DD is just bad and won't buy into it.
I don't know how it works exactly on PSP. But on PS3, you can't backup your DD games on USB stick and restore them on a different PS3. It NEEDS to be the same PS3. Your other option is to move those games from one PS3 to another. Which means if your PS3 breaks down, you can't put the HDD into another PS3. You also can't restore your backup to another PS3. And if PSN is not up anymore, you are 100% screwed. Thanks to DRM.
Physical media on the other hand I can just put in a different PS3 and it will work just fine.
Brad Grenz
Member
This situation is far better than when Microsoft killed their MSN Music service in 2008. The music files were DRM protected and they killed the DRM servers so all those files became worthless. Here you can at least back up to a hard drive, a thumb drive, an optical drive, a cloud drive, same as you should be doing with any of your files you don't want to risk losing. Just like you wouldn't leave a physical comic book outside in the rain, you shouldn't trust the fate of a digital file you value to a single mechanical drive. Nor should you rely on the infinite benevolence of a corporation. Preserving digital goods requires prudent precautions just the same as physical goods.
cantona222
Member
OP, backing the data up in any kind of drive will be considered a "physical" copy. Then the issue is solved. The question is, can all digital data be officially backed up? what about Kindle and digital book?
I guess it's the point of the OP but clearly digital/cloud based content is hugely susceptible to this. If you have something physical and take care of it then only accidents result in loss of your content - with digital, particularly if you don't back it up in some form or have offline access, you're completely at the mercy of the providers.
Another issue with digital will be formats as well of course. Whenever I pull a paperback from a shelf it's readable, I also see issues with changing formats over the years forcing a lot of conversion and maintenance of content just to remain able to access it.
In this case I wonder if rights are part of the issue - another concern of mine with digital/hosted content is that if it falls foul of any legal ownership issue or wrangle you could loss access as well.
No doubt it'll iron itself out over time, but short to medium term people will no doubt find themselves occasionally get caught and losing access to content they feel they paid for when stuff like this happens.
It should be noted that Sony do have provision for you to backup content and have notified a window in which content can be accessed for backup offline in this case so it's not a case of them simply removing the content with no warning.
Another issue with digital will be formats as well of course. Whenever I pull a paperback from a shelf it's readable, I also see issues with changing formats over the years forcing a lot of conversion and maintenance of content just to remain able to access it.
In this case I wonder if rights are part of the issue - another concern of mine with digital/hosted content is that if it falls foul of any legal ownership issue or wrangle you could loss access as well.
No doubt it'll iron itself out over time, but short to medium term people will no doubt find themselves occasionally get caught and losing access to content they feel they paid for when stuff like this happens.
It should be noted that Sony do have provision for you to backup content and have notified a window in which content can be accessed for backup offline in this case so it's not a case of them simply removing the content with no warning.
But that didn't cause any problems before DD (Or I can't think of any).
Blue Submarine No. 6
Member
In all fairness to Sony, when they pulled Motorstorm Arctic Edge from PSN without warning because of an exploit, I sent them an email and they refunded the $35 I originally paid for it to my PSN account. I then went out and bought a $6 used copy of the UMD, and if I wanted the digital version, it's back on PSN at $9.99...
Ultimately, I think Digital will work for most of us most of the time, even with the presumption of some kind of built-in obsolescence or shelf-date, but if you're a collector you're going to want to stick to physical media... I own more than 80 games on PSN, but I also have physical copies of all my favorite PSP and PSX games. Call it "double-dipping" or whatever, IMO the tangibility of physical media is part of the appeal of collecting; I want to play Peace Walker on my PSPgo, but I want the Ltd Ed physical copy with the art book too, and even though I read books on my eReader almost exclusively nowadays, I still buy the physical copy of books by my favorite authors, because I like having them on my shelves, lending them to friends, etc.
BoilersFan23
Member
You can, but gotta do a license transfer by contacting Sony.
This is the one problem with licensing for DD. For physical media, even if a license expires, a disc/cartridge cannot go away, while a download online can.
fluffydelusions
Member
Well bad news does indeed travel fast. Even sites like engadget are picking up the story. Right on the top of the front page when I just visited there.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/30/sony-shuts-down-psp-comic-store-after-october-30th
http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/30/sony-shuts-down-psp-comic-store-after-october-30th
This is the reason I never buy videos on PSN. I can see them shutting down non-videogame related services in the future and it has already happened with the comic book store.
One of the benefits of DD is that all your purchased content is going to be stored in the cloud ready for you to redownload whenever and wherever you want.
Is it still terrible if they give every user four months of advance warning, during which all content can still be downloaded, give a pointer to an existing, working backup tool, and reaffirm that you can use the downloaded content forever?
Some of you guys, srsly.
fluffydelusions
Member
Would you be asking the same question if this was say for games? They only gave you 4 months to backup your games and such? It's really about the principal. It sort of goes against what the "cloud" is supposed to be about. I think this sort of thing will make people think twice about purchasing content digitally from PSN tbh. Just my opinion of course. I'm pretty hesistant about any digital purchases from XBL, PSN.
H_Prestige
Banned
You're wrong.
What? I still have my original ps1 copy of FFVII from 1997 lying around. That's a pretty fucking long rental. Can you tell me when SE is going to barge into my home and take it back?
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Do you actually know anything about the law?
This is so true, if your physical copy gets damaged then there are other ways to replace it. You can't do that with DD and we know companies are not going to have those servers up forever.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Man I just hope I never lose my physical copies of Suikoden II of Earthbound. I guess if I do though, no problem! I can just go buy another copy for several hundred dollars.
If you were a wise consumer you would know that buying physical copies of Xbox and PS3 games are ultimately cheaper. The digital versions never go down in price.
The option is there though if you want it bad enough , Nintendo has made it clear that they will never release a digital version of earthbound ever. Don't know what Konami's problem with Suikoden 2 is.
My biggest fear for next gen consoles is that games require to be activated online like PC games currently do. Hopefully the fact that there is stil a significant number of 360s and PS3s not connected to the internet will force them to abandon the idea.
Games shifting from goods to licenses is probably the biggest loss for video game consumers of the past 10 years. And has the gaming press been debating the issue and/or warning consumers? Nope. What do you think they are, journalists?
Games shifting from goods to licenses is probably the biggest loss for video game consumers of the past 10 years. And has the gaming press been debating the issue and/or warning consumers? Nope. What do you think they are, journalists?
Sentenza
Member
No, I'm not.
Funny, i'm pretty sure I own my physical games. Do you think Sony/MS/Nintendo could ever legally take them away from me, even if i was in breach of some TOS? No, because it's my property.
Polishin8r
Member
they are allowing to back up all your copies so no problem at all people need to chill out
Kelegacy
XBOX - RECORD ME LOVING DOWN MY WOMAN GOOD
Digital things should never break. And really, they never really do. It's the services that end, or change, and then make it so that your purchases no longer work like they did before. Digital items should be infinitely hardier than physical, but that doesn't seem to be the case for some companies and services.
If you buy a digital movie, you should theoretically own it for ever. It can never break. You should be able watch it a million times on a variety of devices. But with DRM and shit, that is an impossible future.
A power outage sends a spike through your house explosioning through your TV... you dive out of the way to avoid being struck with 1.21 gigawatts of Zeus' might and land right on your wonderful collection of perfect game disks... shattering them all... or your new pet uses them as a chew toy.
WAT U DO NOW HUH? HUH?!
Tornado, flood, earthquake, alien invasion...
MrFortyFive
Member
This posts nails it, in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with wanting to get what you payed for, collecting video games, or perhaps some concern over the longevity of your purchases, but the mentality that these purchases in any form are absolute is just folly. My only hope is that the physical medium for video games lasts as long as possible in an increasingly digital world so that as many people as possible can experience and enjoy the content contained within them.
I know that I don't want to go all digital for the simple fact that my country and its internet is not conducive to it. I don't want to be downloading full 15gb games at 512kb internet speeds, which is where we have been stuck at for the past 3 years and I don't see moving anywhere in the immediate future...
So as long as that is the case, I will advocate for physical media all the way. Oh, and I actually like to see a physical representation of something that I've bought. The disks look pretty.
So as long as that is the case, I will advocate for physical media all the way. Oh, and I actually like to see a physical representation of something that I've bought. The disks look pretty.