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Those Mohammed cartoon protests just wont stop
- Thread starter Ark-AMN
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Fatghost28 said:
You're a humanist?
"Humanism is a broad category of active ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on our ability to determine what is right using the qualities innate to humanity, particularly rationality."
Funny how you would tie that with deliberately, maliciously, falsely slandering a man who died 1400 years ago.
Ah! Alas for My Servants! There comes not an apostle to them but they mock him! (Qur'an 36:30)
But never came an apostle to them but they mocked him. (Qur'an 15:11)
And never came there a prophet to them but they mocked him. (Qur'an 43:7)
Mocked were many apostle before thee; But their scoffers were hemmed in by the thing that they mocked. (Qur'an 21:41)
Mocked were many apostles before thee: but I granted respite to the unbelievers, and finally I punished them: Then how terrible was my requital! (Qur'an 13:32)
But never came an apostle to them but they mocked him. (Qur'an 15:11)
And never came there a prophet to them but they mocked him. (Qur'an 43:7)
Mocked were many apostle before thee; But their scoffers were hemmed in by the thing that they mocked. (Qur'an 21:41)
Mocked were many apostles before thee: but I granted respite to the unbelievers, and finally I punished them: Then how terrible was my requital! (Qur'an 13:32)
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Well, that explains Pakistan, but these violent protests have been seen across Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. It's not just Pakistan.
Meanwhile, all of these protests come on the heels of the violent outbreaks in France, and a few other countries, last fall, that went on for days, and we were told, were mostly fueled by Muslims once again. These events, as I said earlier, help to reinforce the Muslim Stereotype amongst the people in the West. In fact, I'd say that many of the people in Europe who have tended to be more tolerant in this regard, have begun to take a different view of Islam in general.
Meanwhile, all of these protests come on the heels of the violent outbreaks in France, and a few other countries, last fall, that went on for days, and we were told, were mostly fueled by Muslims once again. These events, as I said earlier, help to reinforce the Muslim Stereotype amongst the people in the West. In fact, I'd say that many of the people in Europe who have tended to be more tolerant in this regard, have begun to take a different view of Islam in general.
saz said:
I could easily argue that Islam does not affirm the dignity and worth of all people, and therefore would not be considered a good from a humanist perspective.
Mohammed was just another religious nut who started a cult that got out of hand. He doesn't get a free pass any more than Napoleon or Jesus or L. Ron Hubbard or George Bush or any other person of historical importance. He's just as open to lampooing. Only muslims think he was anything special, so anyone who isn't a muslim has a perfect right to say or draw what they want about him.
Kung Fu Jedi said:
I would suggest NOT to judge Islam or its laws by the behaviour of deviant Muslims. There are Muslims nowadays who are gay, who drink alcohol, who fornicate, who murder and rape... the list goes on. AND there are those who murder innocent people outside the battlefield.
It doesn't make it right.
In any case, there is a great upsurge in Islamic scholarship nowadays. More and more people are getting to actually LEARN the laws of Shari'ah regarding every aspect of life. Had the ENTIRE Muslim world become violent, you'd see something else entirely. But here we see less than ~.5% population rioting.
Its simply the case of the fewest beans making the loudest noise. Or something.
saz said:
Sure, lets derail this topic.
Short form:
Islamist governments in the Middle east and in Asia have markedly restricted rights for women, homosexuals, and non muslims. Islamist governments support terrorism. These governments draw their moral argument from the literal interpretation of the koran. If you want to get into this, I suggest a new thread just because this is already now way off topic. It's been debated to death but please don't try to separate Iran and Taliban Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia and other Islamist governments from Islam. Unless you have some new and interesting evidence. Clearly the religion is the motivating force behind the oppressions from these governments.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
saz said:
Hmm... we could take a quick survey of women in Muslim countries.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The cartoons were not published by the Danish government but by an independent newspaper. Blaming Denmark for not apologizing for the actions of a privately owned publication is already fucking retarded, but going as far as to say "I want to have nothing to do with a Dane, ever" puts you instantly on my ignore list.saz said:
Fatghost28 said:
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3698&CATE=89
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=4747879&postcount=1
http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1887&CATE=42
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/moonlight.htm
Easy. Next please.
{BTW I would suggest you to take the time to go through all that before respondine. I have to go to a class too
)saz said:http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3698&CATE=89
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=4747879&postcount=1
http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1887&CATE=42
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/moonlight.htm
Easy. Next please.
{BTW I would suggest you to take the time to go through all that before respondine. I have to go to a class too
I asked for new and compelling evidence that shows that the Islamist governments were not basing their policies on Islam. You failed to provide that evidence.
Quoting one part of scripture to defame an action does not help if the actions can be supported by another part of scripture, which is what the Islamist governments do. Your koran is contradictory, probably because Mohammed was nuts from too much sun in the desert. You failed to prove your point.
Also, it's a matter of forum ettiquette to quote the important part of a link inside the message so the rest of the forum doesn't have to wade through a bunch of bullshit on another page.
yes i'm wrong,i sincerely apologize, i'm truly sorry: instead of extremist quotes i should have talked about extremeist actions for the right comparison right?!?APF said:
how about american/british soldiers torturing prisoners in abu ghraib, in guantomo bay,in kabul? how does about peeing on their holy book quran, stripping them naked ,humiliating them in front of their families suit you? how about coalition soldiers "accidently" killing hundreds of civilians just because their wedding celebrations looked suspicious to them?, what should muslims feel about goerge w bush and his neo-cons declaring iraq as an "immediate threat" because of the "wmds" that they have, invading the country and yet at the end acting like nothing happened when not even a single evidence regarding wmds were found? what would you think about a comparison between cia removing iran's democratically elected president during 50' and installing a puppet dictator (who did cut good deals to american/british oil companies at the time)causing iranian people suffering heavily for years, and some mindless fanatics attacking at their local mc donals, would that be good one?
Oh, that's cool.. you're actually apologizing for mischaracterizing Bennett's comment? That's really a standup thing to do, something any fair-minded person should respect.<nu>faust said:
Oh.<nu>faust said:
So you missed the point of my post entirely, and now you're going to go overboard with inaccurate hyperbolic drivel and anti-American boilerplate to further derail this discussion. Great. Your point was what... that we shouldn't go overboard in our demonizing groups of people? That we should strain ourselves to be understanding and moderate in our characterizations of them? Fantastic. You've certainly proven yourself to abide by such a standard.
I look forward to your spittle-flecked response tomorrow.
Fatghost28 said:
The evidence has always been there, and that's the Qur'an. YOU are making the claim that these so-called Islamist governments are basing their laws on Islam. The burden of proof is on YOU, not on me to prove the negative.
For the record: there IS no Islamic state in the world which is being run fully on Islamic laws.
Again, YOU are making the claim that the Qur'an is contradictory. Show your evidence.
I could care less whether you think its BS or not. I could care less whether you read it or not. I've pointed you to the evidence refuting what you said; you can CHOOSE to not to read it.
Lucky Forward
Member
DarknessTear
Banned
Lucky Forward said:
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
saz said:
I don't think you understand the point at all, haha.
APF said:
first of all i don't think you are the one who should talk about "standarts" when your first response to my original post was "stfu,seriously". Second of all i don't care if you think what bennet said was racist an/or offensive or not, i do have african/black people in my family and just like them i do think his remarks had a racist over tone,me and members of my family don't need to you or any body else(including emebers of african american society) to tell me what i should feel.
I told you what his point was. The point was obvious to anyone who actually wanted to understand what he was saying. It wasn't necessarily the greatest point in the world (personally I'm extremely pro-choice, and he was making a case against abortion), but it wasn't racist either. His point was, that would be an evil thing to do, regardless of any secondary "good" that may come out of it--just like abortion would still be immoral in his eyes, even if it has been correlated to reduced crime over the last how many years. If you want to be offended by something that's not offensive if you bother to try to understand what was being said, then you're an idiot.<nu>faust said:
Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, the guy I originally quoted, compared the cartoons to 9/11 and the treatment of Jews during WWII (i.e. mass genocide). Cartoons to the deaths of millions! I thought this was a ridicules comparison, as any rational thinking human being would. Saz claimed this wasn't ridicules and I should read up on his prophet. Now he's on about some red herring regarding hate speech, when the original comparison wasn't between denying the holocaust and mocking a religious figure, but the actual holocaust and the feelings of those whose religious figure is mocked.
Anyway this is one of the problems with restricting free speech, you do it in instances a, b, c for groups x, y, z. Now group m comes along and wants to restrict speech against p.
Anyway this is one of the problems with restricting free speech, you do it in instances a, b, c for groups x, y, z. Now group m comes along and wants to restrict speech against p.
I don't think you understand what the concept of "free speech" means. It is our right to say (or draw, in this case) what we please, even with points of view that others would find offensive. That includes statements or concepts that you consider to be "lies" or "insults" about a certain individual that not all people agree is a prophet or holy man.saz said:
The fact that you are willing to make this kind of blanket statement doesn't speak well for your rationality. If you want to personally despise the cartoonist, go ahead. If you want to be angry at the editor and newspaper which made the decision to print the cartoons, fine. Hating an entire COUNTRY is completely irrational.saz said:
By the way, "hate speech" is ill-defined bullshit. I'm all for getting rid of those laws if it means that we can actually get around to discussing what is going on with extremist Islamic views.
BigGreenMat
Member
saz said:
I think your analogy is faulty on its basic premises. The Danish Newspaper cartoons do not constitute hate speech. I seriously question the deductive capabilities of anyone who makes such a ludicrous claim. People fling around terms like 'hate-speech' and 'discrimination' with such unabated zeal that people stop questioning the basis for them in the first place. I can understand that someone may dislike any depiction of Muhammed, but if you cannot look past such distaste to evenly assess what is being said or suggested then you have absolutely no credibility in this discussion. Unfortunately, I feel very few of the vocal muslims have shown this ability. It is sad because any of the constructive criticism that was meant to be provoked by these cartoons has been lost, ironically enough, due to the phenomenon they were invoking in their creation. It is a case where reality has proved far more outlandish than the caricature.
Instigator
Banned
saz said:
Even a Muslim Dane opposed (or not) to these cartoons?
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
saz, and Muslims like him, show a fundamental inability to be intellectually honest regarding their religion. It honestly won't matter what anyone says or what evidence is presented to him--Islam can do no wrong. If something good happens, it will be because of Islam and the grace of Allah, and if something bad happens (like ACTUAL ISLAMIC GOVERNMENTS), it's because people didn't follow Islam properly.
He'll never understand that we can insult Islam, the Qu'ran, and Muhammad as much as we want, because we don't buy into that bullshit like he does (if we did, we'd be Muslim ourselves, by definition).
He'll never understand that we can insult Islam, the Qu'ran, and Muhammad as much as we want, because we don't buy into that bullshit like he does (if we did, we'd be Muslim ourselves, by definition).
Instigator
Banned
BigGreenMat said:
Has Fight for Freedom made any comment concerning the cartoon uproar? if he did, I must have missed it. Even if I often disagree with him, I respect him for calmly taking on so many issues in the face of overwhelming hostility.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Koshiro said:
Quiet! There are dogmas to fight for in this thread!
Saz: They are cartoons, stupid hate-baiting cartoons, but cartoons nonetheless. If there were far fewer riots and they weren't stoked by governments and fundamentalist organizations, it wouldn't be horrifying civilized people. What is better, peaceful protests asking for appologies, or fools getting shot dead trying to burn down a fuckin' KFC? Yeah.
Quellex is probably closest to the truth.
BigGreenMat said:
The depiction of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in an image, and ESPECIALLY one which degrades his character and integrity, is blasphemous in Islam.
Go and tell a Jew who survived the Holocaust or the families of the victims of 9/11 that all those people had it coming to them. What sort of reaction will you provoke?
We feel the same way. Insult to our Prophet is absolutely unacceptable. Fine, have your freedom of speech, but don't provoke our anger by making false statements.
Constructive criticism!? They were CARTOONS! They were printed to make make FUN of the Prophet!! I'm all for constructive debate - printing cartoons is NOT a means to constructive debate!
In the future, better have the UNSC make cartoons rather than decisions and debates right?
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
saz said:
Yes, it is your right. It may be in poor taste, but a lot of things covered under the blanket of Free Speech is. It's your right to say what you want about them.
But you still haven't answered the general question. Do you really believe that this cartoon, in poor taste or not, is as big of an atrocity as the Holocaust? 9/11? The only people who have died as a result of these political cartoons are Muslims who have been killed by other Muslims in these "protests".
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Boogie said:
Thanks Boogie. I checked out the book from my university's library, but have only skimmed a few parts up until now (I plan to get to reading the whole thing soon). Unfortunately, I don't see why Arabs' cultural behaviour is particularly relevant in this instance. The cartoon protests have gone on mostly in non-Arab countries, with non-Arab cultures.
SatelliteOfLove said:
I've already posted in this thread that the religious/political front in Pakistan is taking advantage of the incident. I would rather have the Muslim world hold peaceful protests and resolve this situation politicallly.
Like I said, I'm all for boycott by Muslim countries of every think Danish.
Violence is not the answer.
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