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Those Mohammed cartoon protests just wont stop

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saz said:
"interpretation"!?

Its FORBIDDEN explicitly in the Qur'an.
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Isn't the charging of interest and the usage of alcohol/drugs also forbidden in the Qu'ran? That doesn't stop millions and millions of Muslims from ignoring those prohibitions every day. Let's face it, many Muslims pick and choose which parts of their religion to follow. You've just picked out one part and made a big fuss about gays' sexual habits, and I can't imagine why. I find gay sex disgusting...but if other people like it, more power to them. Why do you feel you have to intrude into their habits? Are you afraid you're secretly gay and if you don't condemn homosexuality enough you'll start having sex with other men?

saz said:
Now, if you have doubts over the authencity of the Qur'an or its Source (that is, God), that's a separate debate.
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Actually, it's the same debate. All of your derision towards "Western immorality" stems from the Qu'ran, and not any actual reasons. If your Qu'ran is made-up garbage (and it is, unfortunately) then you have no logical basis for your opinions.
 
Good news for Bush really. This really hurts the muslim image, because the actions are just so unreasonable. These people are burning down embassies and attacking police ebcause of a comic.

Want to protest? By all means, go ahead. But making a VIOLENT protest is retarded.



For example, from experience, I know most of the world sides with Palestine in the Palestine - Isreal issue. Why? Just because.

This will change that kind of image. Its freaking Denmark.
 
Shompola said:
He was almost entirely suppressing people who either belonged to another ethnic group or politically against him. These people were not extremists.
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Wait, I thought it was pretty clear that Saddam did suppress some Islamic extremists (because they often were politically against him). I'm not saying those were the ONLY people he suppressed. I think you're squabbling over semantics here, when no reasonable person should construe my statement as offensive.
 
Chairman Yang said:
Isn't the charging of interest and the usage of alcohol/drugs also forbidden in the Qu'ran?
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The are ABSOLUTELY forbidden. No question about it. This is why so many Muslims look towards Islamic banking for their banking options.

That doesn't stop millions and millions of Muslims from ignoring those prohibitions every day.
Click to expand...

It doesn't change the commandment.

Actually, it's the same debate. All of your derision towards "Western immorality" stems from the Qu'ran, and not any actual reasons. If your Qu'ran is made-up garbage (and it is, unfortunately) then you have no logical basis for your opinions.
Click to expand...

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_articles.php

Take your time to go through it.

But then again, I wouldn't be surprised if you ignore it.
 
saz said:
The are ABSOLUTELY forbidden. No question about it. This is why so many Muslims look towards Islamic banking for their banking options.

It doesn't change the commandment.
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Well, actually, it kind of does. If people ignore a tenet of Islam, and are still considered Muslims, then you don't have to follow the tenet to be a Muslim.

saz said:
http://www.harunyahya.com/m_articles.php

Take your time to go through it.

But then again, I wouldn't be surprised if you ignore it.
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I clicked and read a few of those articles, and found the same claptrap that Christian sites use over and over. Qu'ran quotations (which are useless for proving the validity of the Qu'ran because it's a circular argument), misleading quotes, and a general ignorance of science. For example, the articles under the "Refutation of Darwinism" section are useless. Go to http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html if you want to know why. I took a good look at your link, now please look at that one (and read some of the questions by religious people and their response).
 
Chairman Yang said:
Well, actually, it kind of does. If people ignore a tenet of Islam, and are still considered Muslims, then you don't have to follow the tenet to be a Muslim.
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http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00002116.aspx

This is what makes a person MUSLIM. After that, one can arrogantly choose to disobey God, for which He promises perdition, unless one repents.


I clicked and read a few of those articles, and found the same claptrap that Christian sites use over and over. Qu'ran quotations (which are useless for proving the validity of the Qu'ran because it's a circular argument), misleading quotes, and a general ignorance of science. For example, the articles under the "Refutation of Darwinism" section are useless. Go to http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html if you want to know why. I took a good look at your link, now please look at that one (and read some of the questions by religious people and their response).
Click to expand...

What distinguishes Qur'an from other Scriptures?

READ!
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=329011&page=1&pp=30

As for evolution, I can't comment on that, as I don't have sufficient knowledge on that subject.
 
You guys really shouldn't be wasting your time arguing with saz. There needs to be some common ground between people for a meaningful discussion to take place. What common ground can there be with someone who spouts crap like this?

saz said:
The self-titled western civilization is rife with sexual degeneracy, debauchery, pornography, homosexuality, same-sex marriages, destruction of the family system. Technologically advanced? Yes. Civilized? No.
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He's basically saying that GRANTING RIGHTS is reprehensible, while maiming or killing people who commit acts of so-called sexual degeneracy is God's will. What's the point of arguing with someone like that?
 
To be honest (and I don't want to offend people) the only reason the middle east matters to the rest of the world is for Oil. Once the oil runs out, or our technology progresses to not needing so much oil then quite frankly the rest of the world won't give a flying piss. I do think we will see the middle east decend into anarchy and infighting because you will have governments looking less powerful in the peoples eyes and warlords deciding they want a peice of the pie.
However I also think that in some respects the arab world has chip on its shoulder about no longer being a powerful force across the world. The ottoman empire was vaste but when it decintergrated and the British empire and now the American/european influence took over the arab world lost what it believed was a god given right to be top of the tree. Of course insult to injury along come Israel and becomes a dominant power in the region.
 
PhlegmMaster said:
You guys really shouldn't be wasting your time arguing with saz. There needs to be some common ground between people for a meaningful discussion to take place.
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That is unfortunately true. Western society is absolutely incompatible with Islam.

He's basically saying that GRANTING RIGHTS is reprehensible, while maiming or killing people who commit acts of so-called sexual degeneracy is God's will. What's the point of arguing with someone like that?
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WHO are you to grant "rights" to someone/anyone? That REEKS of arrogance. The end result is simply shifting of laws to satisfy the whims of the people.

Muslims, on the other hand, believe in Divine Law, an Absolute standard, which CANNOT change over time.
 
saz said:
Bring your evidence then.
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:lol

I remember the episode of the Simpsons where Homer gets the crayon taken out of his brain which increases his intelligence, and later on when he's doing his taxes he accidently proves that God doesn't exist... which Flanders then destroys.

So, you want me to prove that God doesn't exist (which by extension would prove that the Qur'an is a pack of lies)? You know perfectly well I can't do that, and because of that fact you think it confirms that God exists. He only exists in the minds of people, so it is impossible to either prove or disprove... however Science on the other hand is the opposite.

Does anyone have the name of that TV show that was on UK Terrestial TV a couple of months ago? It was all about the historical origin of religions and the reason why they were formed, I found it to be really convincing and if I knew the name of it I'd recommend it to everyone.

EDIT: Its interesting that you don't need a shred of evidence to believe in God, you just do out of blind faith, but when it comes to disproving it you need evidence...
 
The Radical Islam governments were not unlike the Orthodox Catholic governments of the Dark Ages. Where it strayed further and further from the Bible into an oppressively cruel totalitarian state. This is what happens when religious theocracies are put into power.

Its funny because in 2000 BC, Mesopotamia was amazing, _the_ place for all the latest in science and technology. Many of the world's seven wonders are (well, were) here.

Its such a shame about how shitty it became.
 
FlameOfCallandor said:
Evidence? I saw jesus in a tortilla and that my friend is evidence that jesus exists.
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No, you fool! The Qu'ran is the only true scripture--it says that RIGHT THERE IN THE QU'RAN! ARE YOU BLIND?
 
Chairman Yang said:
No, you fool! The Qu'ran is the only true scripture--it says that RIGHT THERE IN THE QU'RAN! ARE YOU BLIND?
Click to expand...

The dude that wrote it must have been thinking, "Heh. Game. Set. Match," when he thought about putting that in there. :lol
 
Look Saz just accept that the majority of the people on earth do not want to live as msulims and don't believe in the religion. There have been and always will be competting religions and ideas. Just accept that we live under our laws and you live under yours. Accpet it and move on. The west has learned to accept other religions, people are free to worship what they want but we in the west have fought very long and very hard for our freedoms and many millions have died to protect them. Other religions can accept criticism and even adapt to accept failings and become more accepting and better in the process. If islam wants to compete in the modern world then it will have to adapt or it will look increasingly isolated and backwards.
 
eh, he hasnt done anything that deserves a ban. There are members here that pretty much act like him but on the "other" side of the argument. The other cartoon threads is full of it (even going as far to say all muslims are nazi's, should be wiped out etc)
 
Snaku said:
The dude that wrote it must have been thinking, "Heh. Game. Set. Match," when he thought about putting that in there. :lol
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Uh... don't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said I believe in the Qur'an because the Qur'an says so.
 
Boogie said:
? Quotes please.
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Nah its alright. Cant be bothered to wade through all that shit again

I simply remember Haleon (member) going on about Muslim being nazi's and people continue to post pictures of dropping nukes on muslim countries.

Might be me being sensitive but i reckon most of you guys do wish it would happen.
 
Prine said:
eh, he hasnt done anything that deserves a ban.
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You agree then, with the suggestion that homosexuality is "sexual degeneracy" on the level of beastiality? Seriously, step back for a second.
 
Prine said:
eh, he hasnt done anything that deserves a ban. There are members here that pretty much act like him but on the "other" side of the argument. The other cartoon threads is full of it (even going as far to say all muslims are nazi's, should be wiped out etc)
Click to expand...


Who says all Muslims should be wiped out?

It's saz who's claiming that Western society is incompatible with Islam, and equating cartoons of mohammed being as bad as the holocaust.

Clearly Islam has a serious problem if saz is indicative of the individual it produces.
 
Prine said:
Nah its alright. Cant be bothered to wade through all that shit again

I simply remember Haleon (member) going on about Muslim being nazi's and people continue to post pictures of dropping nukes on muslim countries.

Might be me being sensitive but i reckon most of you guys do wish it would happen.
Click to expand...

I'm about as anti-Islam as you can get (NOT anti-Muslim...there's a difference), and I definitely don't wish for that to happen. Hell, I have Muslim friends, some of them among the nicest people I know. Just because I (and many others) think Islam is a horrible faith, doesn't mean we want people to die and suffer--quite the opposite, actually. I want people to be liberated from Islam (and faith).

Also, I agree that saz shouldn't be banned. If he's not spamming the forums, what's the problem? If he starts derailing every discussion, sure, ban him.
 
When it comes down to it, pretty much all religion is shit.

The thing I'm starting to have a problem is, is muslims arrogance and dislike for the west when so many of us AREN't religious and don't believe in Jesus let alone Prophet whashisname... People like Saz need to be able to accept that not everyone is a muslim and we don't have to respect your religion anymore than we should any other... and lets face it, other religious get the piss ripped out of them all the time. It's just as soon as it happens to them (abeit a highly offensive cartoon to most middle eastern people) they take this moral highground where they can't prove anything.

Violent muslims burn flags and take out buildings, quiet civilised muslims argue with us while completely ignoring our points and expecting different treatment from the rest of the world.

Now I really want us all to get on and have constantly attempted to argue for muslims in the past but my god some of you make it difficult, even people on the news who should be representing a large quanity of muslims can be terribly ignorant and arrogant about their religion and our world.

Face it, Islam is NOT the do all or end all. I'm happy for you that you believe it, but personally, I'd put money on most of it being complete bullshit, just like christianity.


Edit - I may have used the terms muslim and islam incorrently in places in the post, I'm not a fucking expert... Just know I'm only refferring to people who live by islam.
 
But if his freedom of speech means he's allowed to offend such a large group of people... shouldn't he "get ready for the consequences then" ?


That's the point, that freedom of speech needs to extend to this sort of speech too.
 
Prine said:
eh, he hasnt done anything that deserves a ban. There are members here that pretty much act like him but on the "other" side of the argument. The other cartoon threads is full of it (even going as far to say all muslims are nazi's, should be wiped out etc)
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Oh, it would be hypocritical to whack him for his opinions. My issue is his statement that "he's not here to make any friends." He's not interested in discussion -- he's interested in pissing off as many people as possible.

And yes, if someone ran an IP search, I'd be willing to bet that he IS a well-known ex-GAFfer. He had one post in June 2005, eight in a two-day span in mid-December 2005, two more random posts in February 2006, and then an explosion of posts -- all in this topic! -- today. Backup account?
 
Phranky said:
No, you didn't say it exactly...
Click to expand...


Since you probably didn't read it...

I encourage you to investigate each of these points on your own.

What distinguishes the Qur'an among other scriptures?



Why is the Qur'an the Word of God?

Not just anything can constitute divine revelation; here are the criteria that must be fulfilled:

1) The text must first come from the mouth or hand of a Prophet, not "wise men"

2) There must be proof of that person's Prophecy (miracles).

3) There must be certainty beyond any doubt that the revelation has been preserved to the word and is 100% in tact today, never altered nor changed.

The Qur'an was memorized and transcribed by hundreds during the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), in different areas of the world, by a group of people that could not have had the chance to congregate.

4) The Qur'an brings with it several internalized miracles

--------a-) Inimitability of style/linguistic excellence

God in the Qur'an challenges those who deny its divine origin by asking them to produce even 3 verses (in Arabic called "Signs" because they are miracles) to match it.

The Qur'an was revealed through the mouth of an illiterate shepherd-merchant during the height of classical Arabic poetry, in the most literate age of Arabia, where pagan tribes' poets competed in eloquence for honor and pride.

When the Qur'an was revealed, not a single pagan poet could refute it, it shattered the pagans' most revered skill, and recognizing its supernatural expression, most reverted to Islam.

http://www.soas.ac.uk/ was at one point involved in refuting the Qur'an and taking on the challenge, after years of failure it instead became a major centre for learning the Arabic language.

To this day, not a single person has been able to replicate three verses coherently on a given subject.

--------b-) Accuracy of historical events (which could only later be confirmed by modern archeology)

--------c-) Accurate prediction of future events (Prophecy)

--------d-) The Scientific truths it contains

All scientific descriptions made in the Qur'an are proven true by modern science, such details including specifically identifying the gender of worker bees to be female to asserting the extra-terrestrial origin of iron.

All of this through the mouth of an illiterate man in the Arabian desert, at a time when people were divining the future with arrow-heads and burying their daughters in the sand.
 
APF said:
You agree then, with the suggestion that homosexuality is "sexual degeneracy" on the level of beastiality? Seriously, step back for a second.
Click to expand...

admiral_ackbar.jpg
 
Fatghost28 said:
Who says all Muslims should be wiped out?

It's saz who's claiming that Western society is incompatible with Islam, and equating cartoons of mohammed being as bad as the holocaust.

Clearly Islam has a serious problem if saz is indicative of the individual it produces.
Click to expand...

My point is, SLANDERING the Prophet is just as offensive to Muslims as the Holocaust was to the Jews.
 
saz said:
Since you probably didn't read it...

I encourage you to investigate each of these points on your own.

What distinguishes the Qur'an among other scriptures?



Why is the Qur'an the Word of God?

Not just anything can constitute divine revelation; here are the criteria that must be fulfilled:

1) The text must first come from the mouth or hand of a Prophet, not "wise men"

2) There must be proof of that person's Prophecy (miracles).

3) There must be certainty beyond any doubt that the revelation has been preserved to the word and is 100% in tact today, never altered nor changed.

The Qur'an was memorized and transcribed by hundreds during the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), in different areas of the world, by a group of people that could not have had the chance to congregate.

4) The Qur'an brings with it several internalized miracles

--------a-) Inimitability of style/linguistic excellence

God in the Qur'an challenges those who deny its divine origin by asking them to produce even 3 verses (in Arabic called "Signs" because they are miracles) to match it.

The Qur'an was revealed through the mouth of an illiterate shepherd-merchant during the height of classical Arabic poetry, in the most literate age of Arabia, where pagan tribes' poets competed in eloquence for honor and pride.

When the Qur'an was revealed, not a single pagan poet could refute it, it shattered the pagans' most revered skill, and recognizing its supernatural expression, most reverted to Islam.

http://www.soas.ac.uk/ was at one point involved in refuting the Qur'an and taking on the challenge, after years of failure it instead became a major centre for learning the Arabic language.

To this day, not a single person has been able to replicate three verses coherently on a given subject.

--------b-) Accuracy of historical events (which could only later be confirmed by modern archeology)

--------c-) Accurate prediction of future events (Prophecy)

--------d-) The Scientific truths it contains

All scientific descriptions made in the Qur'an are proven true by modern science, such details including specifically identifying the gender of worker bees to be female to asserting the extra-terrestrial origin of iron.

All of this through the mouth of an illiterate man in the Arabian desert, at a time when people were divining the future with arrow-heads and burying their daughters in the sand.
Click to expand...

WTF, are you trying to convert me? That kind of shit really does piss me off...
 
saz said:
My point is, SLANDERING the Prophet is just as offensive to Muslims as the Holocaust was to the Jews.
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No, because "slander" consists of words, and "the Holocaust" consists of six million murders.

If you want to say that anti-Islamic rhetoric is as harmful and objectionable as anti-Semitic rhetoric, that's one thing. But equating actions to words is ridiculous.
 
-jinx- said:
Oh, it would be hypocritical to whack him for his opinions. My issue is his statement that "he's not here to make any friends." He's not interested in discussion -- he's interested in pissing off as many people as possible.
Click to expand...

I am only presenting my side of the argument. If that makes you hate me, diss me, sure go ahead.

*I gain or lose nothing from your approval or contempt*

And yes, if someone ran an IP search, I'd be willing to bet that he IS a well-known ex-GAFfer. He had one post in June 2005, eight in a two-day span in mid-December 2005, two more random posts in February 2006, and then an explosion of posts -- all in this topic! -- today. Backup account?
Click to expand...

I wish I knew how to make the roll-eye smiley :D

Actually, I'm a college student, and I'm pretty busy most of the time to actually take part in any discussion.
 
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