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Thumbstick vs Gyro vs Mouse

Tygeezy

Member
With the announcement of Overwatch coming to the switch and supporting Gyro assisted aiming and recently Days gone adding gyroscope for "accessibility" it seems that motion controls are hopefully starting to gain a foothold and actually become standard. Every time motion controls are brought up you get the usual posts of "If it aint broke don't fix it" "Motion controls are garbage, I don't want to waggle" "I want to relax on my couch, not fling my arms around like a crazy person." I've been saying for awhile now that Gyroscope is objectively superior to thumbstick for aiming and traditional gamepads are fundamentally broken if we have to segregate player bases due to superior input. Now this is just one guy, but I do think it demonstrates the superiority of of the input. It would be great to get more data on this, but with this guy he scored a whopping 68 % higher with a gyroscope in median score over thumstick and 38 % better with a mouse over gyro. I think if gryoscope actually became mainstream for shooters you could start allowing pc vs console and not have this huge disparity in input superiority.

 
Stick for movements, mouse for aim

WASD can go fuck himself...

Tried gyro a couple of times, not a fun but it's probably a question of getting used.
Gyro puzzles in zelda botw was the worst tho.
 
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Gyro should be the "third pillar" of aiming accessibility, though if I really had my choice I wish IR pointing would make a comeback (never gonna happen). Aiming with thumbstick is awful, in spite of all the auto-aiming and snap-to-target buffers that devs add to it.
 
I always wanted to try out those feedback pads on the Steam Controller, but they died pretty fast.
 
Gyro should be the "third pillar" of aiming accessibility, though if I really had my choice I wish IR pointing would make a comeback (never gonna happen). Aiming with thumbstick is awful, in spite of all the auto-aiming and snap-to-target buffers that devs add to it.
And that's why thumbstick only is so awful. The game has to help you aim.
 
And that's why thumbstick only is so awful. The game has to help you aim.
There's also the matter of converters that allow you to use mouse on console anyway. "Traditional" (read: twin sticks) controllers are in desperate need of a modernization, but that requires the help of the platform holders to make it a reality. Just like PC, it seems impossible for new console controls to take root when most devs (even the first party ones) refuse to standardize these extra options.
 
There's also the matter of converters that allow you to use mouse on console anyway. "Traditional" (read: twin sticks) controllers are in desperate need of a modernization, but that requires the help of the platform holders to make it a reality. Just like PC, it seems impossible for new console controls to take root when most devs (even the first party ones) refuse to standardize these extra options.
That's right, I forgot about that. I think developers and sony are to blame for the lack of gyroscope on ps4. Sony couldn't even be bothered to have first party titles use the feature built into their gamepad. Meanwhile all first party Nintendo games use this feature and a lot of third party games have followed suit because their player base is use to having it.
 
I'm sure Sony debated it internally and decided not to go for it. Lair got panned. Uncharted: Golden Abyss didn't exactly set the Vita on fire. Maybe they think their customers don't want gyro-assisted aiming.
 
I'm sure Sony debated it internally and decided not to go for it. Lair got panned. Uncharted: Golden Abyss didn't exactly set the Vita on fire. Maybe they think their customers don't want gyro-assisted aiming.
On Nintendo at least it is always optional. I'm actually not for forced on, optional is all I ask for.
 
I'm posting because I need devs to see that Gyro is wanted. Splatoon is the only game I ever play sniper. I even emailed Naughty Dog the day after the Days Gone got updated because I genuinely think adding gyro to TLOU/Uncharted would be the best thing to happen to the series mechanically. This little clip I made is nothing fancy and made with Switch clips but it really highlights why I love gyro. You can't do this with simply sticks.


Also if you're playing with sticks you've MOST likely playing with aim assist. There's a thread in y'alls rival site too and I really want devs to implement it. I really wanted them to update Doom on PS4 because I don't wanna rebuy the game just for blurry 30fps just for gyro.


PLEASE SONY DEVS USE THE GYRO IN THE DS4.



Gyro is so subtle !! The Wii really gives gyro a bad reputation and it sucks.
 
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I always wanted to try out those feedback pads on the Steam Controller, but they died pretty fast.

The Steam Controller is a great compromise. Very comfortable for sitting back and playing, like a gamepad, but waaaay better for aiming and mouse movement than any thumbstick, since it offers that smooth momentum on top of precision.
 
It would be great to get more data on this, but with this guy he scored a whopping 68 % higher with a gyroscope in median score over thumstick and 38 % better with a mouse over gyro. I think if gryoscope actually became mainstream for shooters you could start allowing pc vs console and not have this huge disparity in input superiority.
You don't even need stats- this is a claim that's easily proven by reasoning about how the input methods in question work with respect to camera rotation in 3D games.

Analog stick is definitely the outlier here, because it's what's known as an 'absolute' input: Its X and Y axes go from -1 (full left / full up) and 1 (full right / full down) and output a constant value based on the physical position of the stick.
This describes a heading (which direction the stick is pushed) and a magnitude (how far the stick is pushed in that direction), which is perfect for controlling a ground-based character in 3D space since characters move in a certain direction at a certain speed over time. The stick handles forward/back/left/right/speed, and gravity takes care of the rest.

Rotating a camera, however, is a bit different. Particularly when you're using a fixed point in the center of the screen for aiming as is the case in most shooters.
Precision is required to position that dot over the exact point you want to shoot, and analog sticks don't lend themselves well to that because they're 'absolute' - they describe a speed and a direction that the camera should rotate over time, rather than the exact amount it should rotate in each axis on a given frame.

That's where mouse and gyroscope (and trackpad) come in. Unlike an analog stick, these are 'relative' inputs: Their X and Y axes track how far the device has moved left/right and up/down over the course of a single frame.
That means the rotation of the camera corresponds 1 : 1 with the movement of the device, and allows the user to input exactly the amount of rotation they need without having to integrate a number over time.
They also aren't limited to -1 / 1 like an absolute axis. If you move 5cm, it'll output 5cm- the limitations are all based on how far you can physically move a mouse or rotate a gyro controller.

To get mathy for a moment, the rotation equation for a given frame looks like this for an absolute input like an analog stick:
new rotation = old rotation + direction * magnitude * sensitivity * time since last frame

And looks like this for a relative input like a mouse, gyro or trackpad:
new rotation = old rotation + amount moved * sensitivity

As you can see, the latter is considerably simpler. You have to derive change-over-time numbers using mathematical formulae when using a stick, whereas a mouse or gyro will plug straight in and take direct control.

Pad vs Mouse/Keyboard objectivity is a debate that - mind-bogglingly - still goes on to this day thanks to uninformed folks trumpeting confirmation bias over hard science, but any input bod worth their salt will be able to tell you what kind of input device is best-suited to a given gaming use-case and explain exactly why that is. I'm of the mind that Left Stick = Move, Mouse = Aim is the best combination for shooters since that gets you the maximum precision for both movement and aiming, but it's impossible to do properly on console and tricky to get right without one of these on PC since you start running out of buttons in more input-heavy games.

Source: I program games for funsies and have a bit of an obsession with ergonomics- input devices, input processing, all that sort of stuff. Ask Me About My New Input Mapper Project™

I always wanted to try out those feedback pads on the Steam Controller, but they died pretty fast.
They feel like joycon HD rumble. Neat idea, but that pad needed a second hardware revision if it was really going to shine.
 
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The Steam Controller is a great compromise. Very comfortable for sitting back and playing, like a gamepad, but waaaay better for aiming and mouse movement than any thumbstick, since it offers that smooth momentum on top of precision.
The only issue I have with the steam controller is that the face buttons are hard to use because they are so tiny and put where the analog stick would typically be. The track pad takes up a large portion of face area. Which is why most bindings focus on using everything but the face buttons. You have back padels and dual state triggers for 6 extra inputs.
 
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The only issue I have with the steam controller is that the fae buttons are hard to use because they are so tiny and put where the analog stick would typically be. The track pad takes up a large portion of face area. Which is why most bindings focus on using everything but the face buttons. You have back padels and dual state triggers for 6 extra inputs.
It needed a proper d-pad so badly :messenger_frowning_
 
8-way (clicky) pad like Saturn (or Neo Geo Pocket Color) would be the ideal setup for the D-pad, Analog Thumbstick for the Character Movement thumbstick, trackpad for the Right Thumbstick, and face buttons for the face buttons. I feel like that would be the best Frankenstein to stick with the current controller paradigm while still accommodating modern, superior aiming interfaces. Otherwise, we need to scrap it and go with IR again, or Mouse.
 
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That's right, I forgot about that. I think developers and sony are to blame for the lack of gyroscope on ps4. Sony couldn't even be bothered to have first party titles use the feature built into their gamepad. Meanwhile all first party Nintendo games use this feature and a lot of third party games have followed suit because their player base is use to having it.
Man, I too completely forgot the PS4 controller has a gyroscope. A bunch of my friends play Apex Legends on PS4 and I end up not joining up with them often because I hate aiming with an analog stick so much. If the gyro gave the ability to fine tune aiming, I'd likely play a lot more. It's not as accurate as an IR pointer (the Wii U CoD games nailed this), but it's a whole hell of a lot better than a damn analog stick.

Why the hell does nobody (including Sony) implement this. Ridiculous.
 
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to game controls. I played the original Duke 3D using keyboard only for quite a while because that's what i was used to in Doom. I hate FPS controls with a controller. However, using gyro in Skyrim and BotW on Switch hooked me instantly. Extremely intuitive and precise. Switch is the first console where i'd consider getting a FPS game
 
Sticks are an ancient technology and the worst option to play fps and/or 3rd person shooters

Mouse is very precise and generelly great for fps/3rd person shooters

Gyro/IR-Aiming is another great option to play fps, because it's way more precise than sticks AND - at least to me - it's also more fun.

Why more fun, though? To me it's more fun, because you're a bit more physical than just using a mouse. In reality if you use a gun, you hold something in your hand as opposed to just moving something over a flat surface. Gyro and IR-pointer aiming both simulate that "feeling" of holding something in your hand.

Aiming with little wrist movements just feels more fun to me.

Gyro and IR-Aiming is best (and the most confiest) with split controllers.
 
It would be great to get more data on this, but with this guy he scored a whopping 68 % higher with a gyroscope in median score over thumstick and 38 % better with a mouse over gyro. I think if gryoscope actually became mainstream for shooters you could start allowing pc vs console and not have this huge disparity in input superiority.

I don't know, 38% still seems pretty huge to me. Huge enough for many gyro users to start bitching once they get matched with mkb players, anyway. Also, let's face it, the difference is probably larger than that, considering that there are still things that are trivial with a mouse but impractical with gyro aiming, such as full 180 degree turns (which never come up in the Aim Lab mode used in the video).
 
I don't know, 38% still seems pretty huge to me. Huge enough for many gyro users to start bitching once they get matched with mkb players, anyway. Also, let's face it, the difference is probably larger than that, considering that there are still things that are trivial with a mouse but impractical with gyro aiming, such as full 180 degree turns (which never come up in the Aim Lab mode used in the video).
You don't turn with gyro. You do large movement like that either with a stick or a track pad and then do fine aiming adjustments with the Gyroscope. With a steam controller its very easy to do quick 180 degree turns with the track pad.
 
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You don't turn with gyro. You do large movement like that either with a stick or a track pad. With a steam controller its very easy to do quick 180 degree turns with the track pad.

Wouldn't a stick be even worse for large movements? At low sensitivity turning takes forever, at high sensitivity it's more inaccurate and harder to control. I've used a Steam controller myself and while the track pad is obviously a better option, I still never felt like it came even close to a mouse when it comes to stuff like this. Maybe I just didn't get enough practice in.
 
Wouldn't a stick be even worse for large movements? At low sensitivity turning takes forever, at high sensitivity it's more inaccurate and harder to control. I've used a Steam controller myself and while the track pad is obviously a better option, I still never felt like it came even close to a mouse when it comes to stuff like this. Maybe I just didn't get enough practice in.
You can get really good at it:

 
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to game controls. I played the original Duke 3D using keyboard only for quite a while because that's what i was used to in Doom. I hate FPS controls with a controller. However, using gyro in Skyrim and BotW on Switch hooked me instantly. Extremely intuitive and precise. Switch is the first console where i'd consider getting a FPS game

Yessss. I'm even sticking to keyboard-only for my current replay of vanilla Duke3D in DosBox, because I feel like it wasn't built for a mouse or anything else. Keep old games on their original controls and they just feel more like the original experience.
 
Yessss. I'm even sticking to keyboard-only for my current replay of vanilla Duke3D in DosBox, because I feel like it wasn't built for a mouse or anything else. Keep old games on their original controls and they just feel more like the original experience.
I still like Duke 3D with keyboard only controls. However, once other people started playing with mouse controls i got wrecked in lan multiplayer so i had to make the switch. The release of Quake was what made me finally embrace mouse and keyboard
 
Gyro aiming in Splatoon is sublime. Mouse-like. The cursor is like an extension of you brain.

But I didn't like implementation of gyro in Warframe on Switch.
 
Also, let's face it, the difference is probably larger than that, considering that there are still things that are trivial with a mouse but impractical with gyro aiming, such as full 180 degree turns (which never come up in the Aim Lab mode used in the video).
The answer to that is Flick Stick:

Just point the stick where you want to turn relative to where you're already facing. For example, pressing down on the stick will always do a 180.

It's easier to learn than 180 flicks with a mouse, but if your mouse flicks are good you're probably not at a disadvantage, is my guess.

I made this video, btw, as well as the one OP shared.

@OP: Thanks got sharing! :D
 
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