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Tim Burton's Batman > Dark Knight by far (skin my alive, GAF)

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I like Batman Returns, not a fan of the first Batman film though...I do think that Batman Forever had the best portrayal of Two-Face and Gotham City itself.
 
Burton's Batman isn't even a good movie, nostalgia aside.

Batman Returns, where Burton clearly had much more creative control, is far better.
 
PumpkinPie said:
I like Batman Returns, not a fan of the first Batman film though...I do think that Batman Forever had the best portrayal of Two-Face and Gotham City itself.
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That movie lost me when I saw Harvey flipping his coin multiple times in order to get the desired outcome.
 
shagg_187 said:
Pretty much disagrees with most of the stuff you said. The reason TDK hasn't "aged well" is cause everyone and their mother saw the movie dozens of time in under a year and that kills the whole purpose of movie watching.
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No, it's because the film is disorienting, only halfway coherent, and devoid of any real thought or emotion. The film's true success is the illusion that there was more depth than you actually made sense of - an illusion broken by repeated viewings. It's an action film that doesn't do action very well, and while Ledger's performance is as great as it's billed to be, the rest of the movie isn't as deserving.
 
Is it the cool thing to hate on good movies now? I understand the whole Begins > TDK, but really, the Burton Batman movie? :lol I loved the TDK, I thought it captured the essence of Batman on the big screen. And while the raspy Batman voice did grow tiring, Christian Bale plays an excellent Bruce Wayne.
 
I prefer Returns to 89. I know it doesn't focus on Batman a whole lot, but Burton had a whole movie to focus on Batman with his first one and he didn't do a very good job at it (Keaton basically saved the day with his performance). Returns, for me, has a pretty good villain triangle, all played pretty well. And the ball room costume party scene with Pfeiffer and Keaton smacks the shit out of its equivalent in Begins (which took two scenes to do).

TDK > all of them though. Mostly thanks to Oldman and Ledger.
 
brianjones said:
why is returns second if that's your criteria?
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It doesn't take itself seriously. It's a straight up cheesy comic whereas Nolan attempts to convince us how realistic the idea of Batman is when it really isn't.
 
Defuser said:
Micheal Keaton throws a bad guy off a clock tower.

Micheal Keaton > Bale
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This very fact exposes the fact that Burton doesn't understand Batman.
 
Before anyone even says that Golden Age Batman killed a lot and without remorse...no he didn't. Read that first year or so of Detective Comics in the Omnibus, he never kills on purpose. Somethings happens indirectly, like a mook falling off a building but he never actively tries to kill anyone. He carried a gun around, yes, but that's what all masked heroes did in that era. He rarely used it and it was soon eliminated from the character.

PhoenixDark said:
It doesn't take itself seriously. It's a straight up cheesy comic whereas Nolan attempts to convince us how realistic the idea of Batman is when it really isn't.
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What is your opinion of B:TAS, Mask of the Phantasm, etc? Do you think they're bad too for taking the material seriously and treating the character like a real character?
 
The first Batman hasn't aged well at all.
Things like the Prince song are Batman Forever bad.
Batman Returns is really good though.
Health Ledger is a better Joker and I didn't know the guy before this movie.
 
TekkenMaster said:
Burton's Batman films are too cheesy for me. Penguins with missiles? A Joker that killed Bruce Wayne's parents? A Gotham that looks like a plastic set?
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you must have hated the original series. you know...the basis for the movies. Burton's Batman movies were a big step towards being "serious" movies, when looked at from the backdrop of the original television series.

Nolan's movies took it even further. But you kinda have to appreciate the origin in order to appreciate the steady march towards "serious Bat".
 
Crewnh said:
Before anyone even says that Golden Age Batman killed a lot and without remorse...no he didn't. Read that first year or so of Detective Comics in the Omnibus, he never kills on purpose. Somethings happens indirectly, like a mook falling off a building but he never actively tries to kill anyone. He carried a gun around, yes, but that's what all masked heroes did in that era. He rarely used it and it was soon eliminated from the character.
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Yep. This really irritates me when people try and claim he killed in the older comics. Glad you pointed it out before someone said it.

Dreams-Visions said:
what the fuck ever. He tried to save Joker's silly ass in Burton's Batman. He always gave the baddies a chance. Shit happens.
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He threw a guy down the bell tower.
 
Eh, I think every Batman film after Batman Returns has been shit. Batman Forever and Batman & Robin were laughably bad.

Batman Begins and Batman Dark Knight are only ok. Take Heath Ledgers Joker out of The Dark Knight and you have yourself a 2hr snore fest.

Bale is the wrong person to play Batman, he's too obvious and Gotham City? What Gotham City? It's so sterile and devoid of any surreal quality.
 
You are out of your skull nutso OP.

But I guess this is a spectacular vindication of the principle that people are just wired differently.
 
Mohonky said:
What Gotham City? It's so sterile and devoid of any surreal quality.
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I don't understand where people are getting the idea that Gotham is supposed to have a surreal quality. Does this come from anywhere other than the Burton film?
 
karobit said:
I don't understand where people are getting the idea that Gotham is supposed to have a surreal quality. Does this come from anywhere other than the Burton film?
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probably, yes.

but I too appreciate a Gotham that requires imagination to appreciate.
 
karobit said:
I don't understand where people are getting the idea that Gotham is supposed to have a surreal quality. Does this come from anywhere other than the Burton film?
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Nope. Gotham has always just been a New York analogue. It's not perpetually stuck in the 40s, it's changed with the times.
 
iamaustrian said:
1) The setting
Tim Burton's Batman plays in a unique and very dark Gotham city while the Dark Knight's Gotham is just another New York without any flair.

2) The Batman
many will disagree here but I still think Christian Bale is way overrated as actor. His emotionless acting can't mess with Michael Keaton's fine mimic and gesticulation.

3) Batman's voice
I prefer this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5wcxnUcgDw to the ridiculous overdone Steroids-Batman voice from DK.

4) The Joker
I still think Heath Ledger's cult status as Joker benefited greatly from his death. I can't see anything special in his acting. Jack Nicholson on the other hand is the joker. He is just perfect for that role.
I don't know why they made the Joker in DK an emo-looking punk who just doesn't give a shit but it wasn't a good decision.

5) Batman's vehicle
oh come one now....what do you prefer?

a bastard child from a stealth fighter and a fucking tank
batmobile-resize.jpg


or a this beauty which design basicly screams BATMAN
Batman-Batman-Returns-Batmobile-550x352.jpg



final words:
I think the problem with Dark Knight is that Ch. Nolan tried way to hard to make Batman realistic. Yes, DK is a pleasure to watch and it is a technical masterpiece but everytime I watch it I miss something. It doesn't feel like a Batman movie to me but more like a Michael Bay actionfest. it lacks the flair and atmosphere of the Burton's Batmans.


thoughts?
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Level of Insanity (1-10. 10 being Mel Gibson)
1) - 4: I did enjoy that style at the time and still have a fondness for it. I'm torn on what I prefer though.

2) - 2: I pretty much agree. I've always liked Keaton.

3) - 1: Obviously

4) - 7: Ledger's Joker was just so much better, scarier and more interesting on film. Not to mention the makeup.

5) - 5: I love em both.
 
tedtropy said:
Is it such an insane notion to enjoy both takes on the character?
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It is sensible to enjoy both films; the old films were enjoyable.

The old films were also retarded. Burton's retarded films were pretty good (Schumacher's were definitively not), but Nolan actually manages to reasonably suspend disbelief in a Batman story, and with solid dramatic performances. It is better. It is better in virtually every way.
 
Ecotic said:
I will say this, The Dark Knight has not aged well. I disagree with the OP, I think Ledger was the greatest thing about that movie and if you take his amazing performance (and the anticipation of his next scene) away, then the whole movie is pretty boring and very grueling to watch.

Christopher Nolan is not a good director. He can't do action scenes at all. You're left with no spatial sense. The tunnel scene in The Dark Knight is a disgrace. That scene should've been so amazing, yet is so awkwardly filmed/edited that you don't know what is going on where and it's completely ruined. The camera work in Dark Knight is so shaky and the cuts are so fast that it's disorienting, and instead of the audience becoming increasingly emotionally invested in the movie they're just trying to keep up spatially with what is going on. Too much, too fast disconnects the audience.
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Eh, I disagree with you more than anybody in this thread.

TDK hasn't aged well if you've watched it five million times. That happens to most movies you've seen over and over and over again.

The character of the Joker was in the writing and Ledger brought it to life. I don't think anybody could do a good a job as him but he didn't make the entire movie. I agree if you take him out, the movie would be boring but that's kind of a rediculous notion. Why do it? The movie centered around his performance. That was the point.

Saying Christopher Nolan is not a good director is absurd. Uwe Boll is a terrible director. George Lucas is not a good director. Chris Nolan's movies are well thought out, unique, well shot, well directed, and expertly acted. Have you seen Following? The Prestige? Momento? Hell, Inception? These are bad movies? What is so bad about them? I'd love to hear your opinion. Each movie is amazing in its own way.

Granted, the fight scenes in Batman Begins were hard to follow because they were slightly too shakey and the camera needed to be pulled out just a few feet. The Dark Knight doesn't suffer from these problems. very few action scenes suffer from shakey cam. Every scene, especially the tunnel scene, has been clear and concise.

You're left with no spatial sense
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What does that even mean??

The scene was far from a disgrace. It was so good, no music was needed. Each shot took its time and nothing was awkward. It was well edited and it was very clear what was happening from beggining to end. The motorcycle and the truck flipping over was epic. Gasps could be heard in the movie theater. Did you want smooth sweeping, dramatic overhead shots ala Transformers/bad Boys II?

If the audience was disconnected from the movie, it wouldn't have done well. nothing was confusing. The drama, dialogue, action, and story drew the audience in and made it one of the top grossing movies ever to be made. TDK is a good film that, granted, has been hyped to death and back, holds its own and is a great sequel.


As far as the Original being better... I'd have to compare both Batman and Batman Returns with Batman Begins and TDK. All of these movies are products of the time they were made. All of them were good. Different styles but portraying the same character.

The newer movies realy shined light on Batman as a character. In batman Begins and lesser so in TDK, one could know and even relate to the crazy man in a bat suit. he was a character to feel sorry for and root for. It was shown how a man could go to such lengths to defend a city that is rotten deep to the core with crime. In Burton's movies, it felt like Batman was a secondary chracter and the villians stole the lime light. It felt like Batman was just playing clean up and not much else. We didn't really get to know him as well as in the newer movies.




Considering that, I'll narrow it down to one thing obviously... Batman himself.

Who looks better? Who moves better? Who's more intimidating? Who fights better? Who had the better tools and gadgets? Hell, who could move their fucking neck? Keaton isn't looking up because he's being epic, it's because he can't look any other way!
mkb.jpg
darkknight_3_dark-knight-rises.jpg

Nolan's Batman, easily.
 
Lonely1 said:
CTRL+F Batman: Mask of the Phantasm.

Mm... you disappoint me GAF, the best Batman movie by far.
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You're good folk.


GhaleonEB said:
There was nothing in the new movies as terrible as this scene. And the Burton Batman is filled with this kind of stuff.
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I don't know. That's up there with the "Swear to me" scene.
 
BlackGoku03 said:
Considering that, I'll narrow it down to one thing obviously... Batman himself.

Who looks better? Who moves better? Who's more intimidating? Who fights better? Who had the better tools and gadgets? Hell, who could move their fucking neck? Keaton isn't looking up because he's being epic, it's because he can't look any other way!
mkb.jpg
darkknight_3_dark-knight-rises.jpg

Nolan's Batman, easily.
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Bale Batman looks like he has down syndrom tbh. Something looks really off.

Keaton Batman looks badass all the way
 
iamaustrian said:
Bale Batman looks like he has down syndrom tbh. Something looks really off.

Keaton Batman looks badass all the way
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That suit is horrible. It looks like one of the plastic chest plates you buy at Wal Mart on halloween.
 
Agree with OP, I like the old Burtman movies, but the Nolan movies do absolutely nothing for me (except for Ledger, I liked his take on the Joker).
 
I do like Bale's Wayne at the very least. My favorite scene in the TDK is probably where he decks the thug and disassembles the shotgun without breaking stride. It gave a good look at how Bruce had become the mask at that point.
 
i tried rewatching the burton batman movies cause i had fond memories of them.

they were awful. not sure what has changed between the time when i last watched them to now, but they are completely unwatchable for me now.
 
It's sad that it has become semi-hip for nerds to bash Burton's Batman just because the hive mind is slobbering on Nolan's films the past few years.
 
CartridgeBlower said:
It's sad that it has become semi-hip for nerds to bash Burton's Batman just because the hive mind is slobbering on Nolan's films the past few years.
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really i thought it's become hip to bash TDK lately.
 
we have these threads every month.

Facts:

Batman KILLS people in Batman 89.

Keaton did very well with the material given to him. However, his character isn't developed well enough for the audience to root for him - unlike Bale in Begins/TDK.

Nicholson joker was way over-the-top. However, if you think that as a positive than I can't dissuade you.

Gotham looks great in Burton-verse. Burton's art director sensibilities give it much flair.

Batmobile was excellent, Instantly likeable.

TDK is a better made film, more ambitious and has a great story.

Characters in TDK are waaaay more fleshed out than any of the previous films.

Batman DOES NOT kill people. This not only adds to the internal conflict in the nolan-verse movies and is true to the character.

Ledger's joker is a far more nuanced performance than Nicholson's joker.

Tumbler is pretty cool in its own way. Grower, and needs to be seen in the movies to be appreciated. It is a utilitarian tank to 89's pimp mobile.

Bale is a better Bruce Wayne/Batman than Keaton, because Nolan actually gave him a personality and character.

Gotham loses part of its personality in the newer films, as Burton's Gothic style has more flair. It ends up looking like any other American city.
 
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