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[SonnyBoy]

When will the crying cease?

 

[Jburton]

Nowhere, which is why we as a society should recognize that fathers can be nurturers, too..

So she is talking about a problem with members of society and not the institution of Mothers Day itself?

Also who does not recognise? ...... blanket statements and generalisation.



[/QUOTE]It goes both ways. Some of the traits we attach to mothers aren't just for mothers. Some of the traits for fathers aren't just for fathers. Mothers are increasingly breadwinners searching for any time to actually spend with their children, and fathers are nurturers, too. This isn't about wording semantics, it's about generally how we view the roles and how they're converging.[/QUOTE]

People who have had a stay at home dad and and bread winning mom already know this, people who have had the opposite know what they know based on their experience.

What people determine their Mothers and Fathers to be is based upon ...... their Mothers and Fathers ......... not what some time journalist tells us, people already know what she is saying.



Also lets not change try and change the perceived old blanket assumptions with new ones ....... the roles are converging? ........ some parents, some places, sometimes ..... and that's ok, let's not paint it that is the way it has to be or should be.


I feel she is arguing (or bring up a point) against something no one is try to enforce.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What is with this agenda on the Internet that seems to be trying to convince people that both genders are the same in all respects and equal in every way?

 

[Choke on the Magic]

It isn't just about the cards. It's about all advertising. All commercials. And it's about societally how we perceive it and how most people remember and celebrate it.

Are you arguing that people don't actually see Mother's Day that way by and large? Are you saying that her generalization is wrong and we do in fact have a veritable smorgasbord of depictions for Mother's Day?

That quote you brought up, this one:



You really think that's shared by only a few people and everyone else just does whatever?

Because, seriously, that's how most people I know view Mother's Day. That's how it's always been in my family, and most of the people I've met. That's how they view it outwardly, too. I really don't see how you could take issue with the fact that it's pretty much the general view of the holiday.

With being married to a woman who is a mother with a career, I take issue with why people care so much about how mother's day is depicted in cards and commercials. I just wonder what it's like going through life being so hyper sensitive about a whole lot of nothing.

 

[AkuMifune]

But when is Father-Mother day?

 

[phosphor112]

If it doesn't fucking apply to you and you celebrate Mother's Day some other way, then good on you, and oh wait THAT'S THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT OF THE ARTICLE. It's saying it's ok to celebrate in a different way. It's ok to celebrate your father's nurturing capabilities and your mother's breadwinning capabilities. If you already do that then the goddamned article doesn't apply to you. It's not generalizing you.

The opinion piece doesn't cover much outside of commercial portrayal of Mother's day. In fact, it didn't discuss society or culture or how PEOPLE but instead quotes Hallmark cards and commercial stereotypes.

Instead we are getting posts that insist it's a societal problem and the day actually "is sexist" because of how Hallmark portrays it, and all of a sudden, all Americans are monolithic in their cultures and shit.

It just isn't true.

I'll stand by my statement that the day itself isn't sexist, it's the commercialism behind it that is.

What is with this agenda on the Internet that seems to be trying to convince people that both genders are the same in all respects and equal in every way?

Clit = penis head

Clitoris Awareness Week now dubbed Penis Awareness Week

Or something.

 

[RDreamer]

What is with this agenda on the Internet that seems to be trying to convince people that both genders are the same in all respects and equal in every way?

Yes, it's just some Internet agenda that says I can be just as good at nurturing a child as my wife. Care to enlighten me on the real inherent differences?

With being married to a woman who is a mother with a career, I take issue with why people care so much about how mother's day is depicted in cards and commercials. I just wonder what it's like going through life being so hyper sensitive about a whole lot of nothing.

Why exactly is she hyper sensitive? She wrote a fucking short article just saying "hey, guys, these roles aren't quite what we think of them anymore." And that makes her hyper sensitive? Is anyone that discusses or points something out ever hyper sensitive? She's not on some campaign to get something banned or anything drastic. She's just pointing it out, and even said she still likes the stuff anyway. What's wrong with that?

 

[Dude Abides]

Like posting your usual tripe on GAF.

My first stalker. I'll have to remember this date.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

My first stalker. I'll have to remember this date.

You want to go on a date?

Why exactly is she hyper sensitive? She wrote a fucking short article just saying "hey, guys, these roles aren't quite what we think of them anymore." And that makes her hyper sensitive? Is anyone that discusses or points something out ever hyper sensitive? She's not on some campaign to get something banned or anything drastic. She's just pointing it out, and even said she still likes the stuff anyway. What's wrong with that?

Nothing's wrong with it. She's just pointing out something that in my opinion is a norm. Now put that together with the title of her article and imo I think she may be a bit salty about the lack of breadwinner md card and nurturing father fd cards.

 

[Dude Abides]

You want to go on a date?

Not sure. Who are you again?

 

[GraveHorizon]

All I know is that I have to work on Mother's Day, which is on Sunday, a day I normally get off (restaurant doing Mother's Day special).

If pre-written cards offend the lazy people that would buy them, they should just make their own.

 

[Dark Octave]

HAHA I did accidentally show up at work on Good Friday once. It was a nice surprise to show up to a completely empty parking lot.

So far I've been lucky enough to get at least a last minute heads up (and I mean minutes before quitting time) that the following monday would be off. It is a nice surprise either way.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Not sure. Who are you again?

I'm a french model.

 

[Fenderputty]

My mother adhered to those gender roles more so than I do. She wanted to be the stay at home nurturing mother. So I celebrate what she's done. I don't even feel this is sexist because she chose that. She worked prior to having me and even worked for the first couple years after. She decided it would be best if she was home to nurture her children. I don't agree with her position in that my wife and I share gender roles a ton more than my parents did, but it's her mother's day and not mine. So we celebrate her and what she did.

I think the article is stupid. Mother's Day is only sexist if the person you're celebrating chose that lifestyle. And if they did, who are we to criticize? If your mother worked a second job to help make money, yet was still an amazing Mom, then you celebrate and thank your mother for doing that when raising you. My eventual children will thank their mother for being a working role model, a wonderful cook and a caring person. They’ll eventually celebrate father’s day for me being a working role model, a wonderful dish cleaner and a caring person as well.

Basically … Mother’s day is what your individual family makes it. It isn’t inherently sexist, but may reflect the sexist undertones of the generation your parents grew up in.

 

[fader]

When I think of Mothers Days, The first thing that comes to mind is sexism...

 

[Dude Abides]

I'm a french model.

No thanks, then. I don't date smokers.

 

[Fenderputty]

Why exactly is she hyper sensitive? She wrote a fucking short article just saying "hey, guys, these roles aren't quite what we think of them anymore." And that makes her hyper sensitive? Is anyone that discusses or points something out ever hyper sensitive? She's not on some campaign to get something banned or anything drastic. She's just pointing it out, and even said she still likes the stuff anyway. What's wrong with that?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most mothers who receive cards on Mother's day grew up in a time where gender roles where normal. They chose and accepted that life. Why wouldn’t someone pushing cards as a business not advertise to their largest segment? My mother fits the bill perfectly.

When we're 50+ year old farts and have kids of our own giving us gifts, I bet the cards will be different. They will no longer largely reflect the baby boomer generation, but rather ours.

 

[Trey]

The article asks: is Mother's Day sexist? The answer is no.

There are definitely sexist sensibilities present in Mother's Day celebrations, though. I think an answer is to have more variety in cards. I think a better answer would be for people to not turn completely to general memes when honoring a specific people in their life.

 

[DominoKid]

It isn't sexist, but it damn sure gets treated a whole lot better than Father's Day. Father's Day is overwhelmed by too much negativity from folks w/o dads.

 

[RDreamer]

My mother adhered to those gender roles more so than I do. She wanted to be the stay at home nurturing mother. So I celebrate what she's done. I don't even feel this is sexist because she chose that. She worked prior to having me and even worked for the first couple years after. She decided it would be best if she was home to nurture her children. I don't agree with her position in that my wife and I share gender roles a ton more than my parents did, but it's her mother's day and not mine. So we celebrate her and what she did.

I think the article is stupid. Mother's Day is only sexist if the person you're celebrating chose that lifestyle. And if they did, who are we to criticize? If your mother worked a second job to help make money, yet was still an amazing Mom, then you celebrate and thank your mother for doing that when raising you. My eventual children will thank their mother for being a working role model, a wonderful cook and a caring person. They’ll eventually celebrate father’s day for me being a working role model, a wonderful dish cleaner and a caring person as well.

Basically … Mother’s day is what your individual family makes it. It isn’t inherently sexist, but may reflect the sexist undertones of the generation your parents grew up in.

You say the article is stupid, but then you basically agree with the article. She's trying to say that norms are changing and the traditional way of viewing Mother's Day isn't valid because the roles are converging. She's saying, like you, that your individual family should celebrate what your individual mother and father actually bring the table and recognize those things. She's not trying to call anyone sexist for celebrating a mother that actually does 100% conform to those roles. That's silly and that's nowhere near what she's saying.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most mothers who receive cards on Mother's day grew up in a time where gender roles where normal. They chose and accepted that life. Why wouldn’t someone pushing cards as a business not advertise to their largest segment? My mother fits the bill perfectly.

When we're 50+ year old farts and have kids of our own giving us gifts, I bet the cards will be different. They will no longer largely reflect the baby boomer generation, but rather ours.

The article does point out a few factual things, though. Mothers are factually just as hard up for family time because they're out working and winning bread. Factually. The cards just don't fit this because a lot of people just don't realize that we should also be as a whole recognizing and celebrating mothers for their breadwinning capabilities, and fathers for their nurturing.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yes, it's just some Internet agenda that says I can be just as good at nurturing a child as my wife. Care to enlighten me on the real inherent differences?

Care to stop putting words in my mouth? I never said both genders couldn't be great at nurturing a child. I don't think it should necessary to point out that the genders are different, though.

You say the article is stupid, but then you basically agree with the article. She's trying to say that norms are changing and the traditional way of viewing Mother's Day isn't valid because the roles are converging. She's saying, like you, that your individual family should celebrate what your individual mother and father actually bring the table and recognize those things. She's not trying to call anyone sexist for celebrating a mother that actually does 100% conform to those roles. That's silly and that's nowhere near what she's saying.

From what I could discern, she was attacking the greeting cards industry for perpetuating norms that she argues are no longer necessary valid.

Also, how does she write an article like this, that seemingly tries to claim that both genders can do the job of child rearing equally, when she is the author of this book:

The Mama's Boy Myth

In it, apparently she claims that boys who have a strong bond with their mother (read: female) grow up being "more emotionally intelligent and more sensitive without being less 'manly'."

 

[RDreamer]

Care to stop putting words in my mouth? I never said both genders couldn't be great at nurturing a child. I don't think it should necessary to point out that the genders are different, though.

You came into a thread talking about gender roles, claimed that they're totally different, and now you won't say why or how at all. When confronted with one of the bigger examples in the article you seem to dislike, you dismiss it as putting words in your mouth. Good job conversing here, man. It's been great...

 

[Barbacoatl]

This is the magazine that declared me person of the year for watching internet porn.

But seriously, she should try using titles for her articles that reflect the content to avoid confusion/backlash.

 

[Platy]

When my mother was a single parent (as in a good part of my childhood) I gave the father's day gifts to her since she was both my mom and my father at the time.

I don't see the problem of giving the mother's day to a father or even an uncle/grandpa/whatever

edit :
The way marketing sees it is complicated.

It becomes like women's day .... turning an awesome day into pure misoginism

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You came into a thread talking about gender roles, claimed that they're totally different, and now you won't say why or how at all. When confronted with one of the bigger examples in the article you seem to dislike, you dismiss it as putting words in your mouth. Good job conversing here, man. It's been great...

You're like the strawman-building king or something here. I said this:

What is with this agenda on the Internet that seems to be trying to convince people that both genders are the same in all respects and equal in every way?

Did you actually read it this time? I hope so.

Where in that did I say that the genders, and their roles, are "totally different?" Please point that part out. I do think they are NOT completely the same, as many people seem to want to argue. That should be incredibly obvious to anyone, though. Not being completely the same does allow you to jump directly to "completely different."

 

[stufte]

Jesus. No, it's not sexist. Mothers day is a day to recognize the difficulty and sacrifice your mother gave to keep you alive and well throughout your childhood. We celebrate Fathers day for the same reason. Here's how mothers day works in my house:

My wife wants something she'd probably buy herself. I get the kids out to the store and buy said item. We spend a few hours of daddy/daughter time wrapping, drawing, coloring and making cards.

Rise, repeat for Fathers day.

People need to un-knot their panties about this, and find something that is ACTUALLY outrageous to be outraged about. ffs.

 

[Fenderputty]

You say the article is stupid, but then you basically agree with the article. She's trying to say that norms are changing and the traditional way of viewing Mother's Day isn't valid because the roles are converging. She's saying, like you, that your individual family should celebrate what your individual mother and father actually bring the table and recognize those things. She's not trying to call anyone sexist for celebrating a mother that actually does 100% conform to those roles. That's silly and that's nowhere near what she's saying.




The article does point out a few factual things, though. Mothers are factually just as hard up for family time because they're out working and winning bread. Factually. The cards just don't fit this because a lot of people just don't realize that we should also be as a whole recognizing and celebrating mothers for their breadwinning capabilities, and fathers for their nurturing.

Yes, but until all of our traditional mother's have gone and passed away, mothers' day will have those gender roles tied to it.

Yeah the artcile points out facts. But those facts are all "recent". Meaning people like my wife and your SO. I still feel like the majority of people getting cards on mothers' day aren't part of this "recent" data.

Wealth inequality for the middle class is a large driving factor in this too. Previous to our generations, a dual income wasn't needed.

I feel like mothers' day will evolve just like a woman's / man's role in the family. It's just not going to happen overnight as we still got a lot of mother's around from before.

 

[GungHo]

Article says "Nothing wrong with having a day to thank your mom for all she's done. But there are lots of stereotypes about how she has done that which come forward on this day."

People's reaction: "OMG what's sexist about having a day to thank your mom for all she's done?"

Either people aren't reading, or aren't comprehending. You don't need to agree with the article, but I'm seriously seeing evidence that people didn't read it or didn't understand it.

Or maybe they're just having a go at an opinion article that worries about a problem that exists in the mind of a journalist who herself has formed a skewed view of what Mother's Day means to the rest of the world based on selected Hallmark cards she doesn't like.

 

[thetrin]

I don't think it's sexist. My mom was the one who instilled me with morality, patience, and love. I'm going to take her out for dinner, and she's going to love it.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I think the article is meaning well but conveys the headlines in a rather poor structure that you have people arguing in circles because they only read the titles or summaries.

With that said it seems like yelling PC has people wanting to stop discussing something. And I'm equally disturbed at poster/s saying that "this is an agenda!" Is it some unique Western thinking?

 

[dojokun]

Or maybe they're just having a go at an opinion article that worries about a problem that exists in the mind of a journalist who herself has formed a skewed view of what Mother's Day means to the rest of the world based on selected Hallmark cards she doesn't like.

So they should have a go at it in a manner that actually makes sense.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Or maybe they're just having a go at an opinion article that worries about a problem that exists in the mind of a journalist who herself has formed a skewed view of what Mother's Day means to the rest of the world based on selected Hallmark cards she doesn't like.

Ah but you underestimate the power of greeting cards.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Ah but you underestimate the power of greeting cards.

Do elaborate!

 

[RDreamer]

You're like the strawman-building king or something here. I said this:

Did you actually read it this time? I hope so.

Where in that did I say that the genders, and their roles, are "totally different?" Please point that part out. I do think they are NOT completely the same, as many people seem to want to argue. That should be incredibly obvious to anyone, though. Not being completely the same does allow you to jump directly to "completely different."

For fuck's sake, dude, shit or get off the pot. Are you going to enlighten us here on your rage against the internet or fucking not? You came into a thread and claimed that the internet wants to make all the genders completely different. I pointed out one of the main fucking ways the article this goddamned thread is about, trying to prompt some conversation. Maybe, like a normal fucking person, you'd say "Well of course I believe men can nurture, but I feel like the genders are different in this other way." Or "I don't believe men can nurture as well because X, Y, and Z." Or "Yeah I think men can nurture just as well, but the author got something over here wrong. The genders are different in this way." You're the one strawmanning shit and then getting offended when someone tries to figure out what the fuck you're trying to say.

Yes, but until all of our traditional mother's have gone and passed away, mothers' day will have those gender roles tied to it.

Yeah the artcile points out facts. But those facts are all "recent". Meaning people like my wife and your SO. I still feel like the majority of people getting cards on mothers' day aren't part of this "recent" data.

Wealth inequality for the middle class is a large driving factor in this too. Previous to our generations, a dual income wasn't needed.

I just like mothers' day will evolve just like a woman's / man's role in the family. It's just not going to happen overnight as we still got a lot of mother's around from before.

For the most part I don't think you're wrong, but I think it's worth it to point out how things are changing and where they may differ from what is considered the "traditional." Awareness of these things is nice. Woman and Man's role in the family didn't evolve out of nowhere. It evolved because we all had a continuing conversation on what those things meant and where we could maybe do things better or different, along with some other confounding factors, of course.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Do elaborate!

Certain holidays were otherwise "altered" and influenced by cards. Though saying cards alone is wrong, they seem to have more on marketing than just cards themselves.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

For fuck's sake, dude, shit or get off the pot. Are you going to enlighten us here on your rage against the internet or fucking not? You came into a thread and claimed that the internet wants to make all the genders completely different. I pointed out one of the main fucking ways the article this goddamned thread is about, trying to prompt some conversation. Maybe, like a normal fucking person, you'd say "Well of course I believe men can nurture, but I feel like the genders are different in this other way." Or "I don't believe men can nurture as well because X, Y, and Z." Or "Yeah I think men can nurture just as well, but the author got something over here wrong. The genders are different in this way." You're the one strawmanning shit and then getting offended when someone tries to figure out what the fuck you're trying to say.

You should really try calming down. I think your rage is inhibiting your ability to read.

"Internet agenda" doesn't mean that the entirety of the Internet is conspiring together. It's just my personal observation that these views are not widespread outside of the Internet. I may be wrong, but personally I only ever encounter viewpoints like this in Internet articles or on message boards.

I don't think I will ever encounter anyone in real life who would suggest that something like Mother's Day could be sexist. This is just some crazy rant against greeting cards that reinforce social norms that the author of this article doesn't seem to agree with.

Anyway, it's unfortunate that my posting style isn't to your liking, but try checking your rage at the door next time.

For the most part I don't think you're wrong, but I think it's worth it to point out how things are changing and where they may differ from what is considered the "traditional." Awareness of these things is nice. Woman and Man's role in the family didn't evolve out of nowhere. It evolved because we all had a continuing conversation on what those things meant and where we could maybe do things better or different, along with some other confounding factors, of course.

Gender roles evolved out of a continuing conversation? Across various societies? I'm pretty the roles evolved more naturally out of certain biological necessities, strengths, and weaknesses. Recently they've changed mostly because of economic necessities and the evolution of society making those various strengths and weaknesses less relevant.

 

[Barbacoatl]

Fucking fucken' fucktastic fuckity fuckeroo fuckery fuckereel fuckington fuckology fuckantry...oh there's someone raging that much is true.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

No. This article is political correctness run amok

 

[Socreges]

Amazon suggests various products to buy for Mother's Day....

The vast majority of them are for the kitchen. Pretty funny.

 

[SturokBGD]

Not even remotely relevant.

It is to me. Mostly because my parents literally are gender stereotypes. But I don't feel like getting into my life story today so you'll just have to trust me on that one.

 

[Fenderputty]

For the most part I don't think you're wrong, but I think it's worth it to point out how things are changing and where they may differ from what is considered the "traditional." Awareness of these things is nice. Woman and Man's role in the family didn't evolve out of nowhere. It evolved because we all had a continuing conversation on what those things meant and where we could maybe do things better or different, along with some other confounding factors, of course.

I agree with this and guess "stupid" wasn't the right word of choice for the description I gave the article earlier.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Amazon suggests various products to buy for Mother's Day....

The vast majority of them are for the kitchen. Pretty funny.

Yeah, and it's probably a bunch of power tools and action movies for Father's Day--so what? Amazon is trying to sell product. If there were really some kind of mass rejection of gender roles in society going on, I don't think this kind of targeted marketing would be successful and they would stop.

 

[Boss Doggie]

No. This article is political correctness run amok

Not at all, it can't be about being PC when it actually address notable things.

Like I said, the headline is structured poorly that it would incite posting without reading.

Yeah, and it's probably a bunch of power tools and action movies for Father's Day--so what? Amazon is trying to sell product. If there were really some kind of mass rejection of gender roles in society going on, I don't think this kind of targeted marketing would be successful and they would stop.

I think it's more to do with how inconspicuous things can indirectly lead to something else. It's like how people would buy games with always-online DRM, which may seem innocent enough since they're doing it for their own amusement, but has an indirect effect on painting a rather always-online structured future.

 

[Barbacoatl]

-'Is ice cream delicious?'
-Sure
-The question is irrelevant to the article! You're supposed to take a stance on the sugar fields in Haiti!

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Not at all, it can't be about being PC when it actually address notable things.

Like I said, the headline is structured poorly that it would incite posting without reading.

What notable things does it address? That there are a ton of people who do not fit in the stereotypical gender roles? That individual families already recognize this and celebrate these less conventional roles appropriately?

So what exactly is her point, then? She says people already recognize these roles. She says she isn't against Mother's Day. She poses a question asking if Mother's Day is sexist, but doesn't try to answer it outside of discussing how Hallmark cards are presented, and she closes with this:

But it would be nice to celebrate mothers and fathers in a way that truly honors everything they each can — and do — bring to the family.

Aren't people already doing this? Is she proposing some new holiday? Family Day or something?

 

[Boss Doggie]

What notable things does it address? That there are a ton of people who do not fit in the stereotypical gender roles? That individual families already recognize this and celebrate these less conventional roles appropriately?

So what exactly is her point then? She says people already recognize these roles. She says she isn't against Mother's Day. She poses a question asking if Mother's Day is sexist, but doesn't try to answer it outside of how Hallmark cards are presented and she closes with this

Aren't people already doing this? Is she proposing some new holiday? Family Day or something?

I'd say she isn't proposing something like that, but more like giving a piece of her mind. Like maybe having the corporations be more aware on the effect rather than sticking to the traditional "looks" of something.

 

[RDreamer]

It is to me. Mostly because my parents literally are gender stereotypes. But I don't feel like getting into my life story today so you'll just have to trust me on that one.

You're getting closer to relevant. Your original post didn't make any sense in context, though. Just because your mom is good and your dad's a cock doesn't have anything to do with society's broader depiction of mother's day and whether that's sexist. The mere existence of your parents as stereotypes doesn't much either, but it's closer, I guess.

 

[Data West]

My question, as ever, is 'what do people propose as a solution?'.

That's the thing about people. They'd rather just whine. Whining is complaining without offering any proper alternatives. They see it as a position that's completely defensible because 'Well, I didn't say they should do that.'

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'd say she isn't proposing something like that, but more like giving a piece of her mind. Like maybe having the corporations be more aware on the effect rather than sticking to the traditional "looks" of something.

So, asking them to take business risks to appeal to an audience that may be very much in the minority?

I don't go shopping for cards very often, but when I do, I'll often see a few less orthodox cards that seem to be trying to accommodate those who don't fall into the typical stereotypes.

 

[RDreamer]

So, asking them to take business risks to appeal to an audience that may be very much in the minority?

I don't go shopping for cards very often, but when I do, I'll often see a few less orthodox cards that seem to be trying to accommodate those who don't fall into the typical stereotypes.

It's more asking us to be a bit more aware of our parents roles as they increasingly become different from the traditional. The more people are cognizant of this the more will relate to advertising and other social institutions that reflect the way things actually are.

And as she points out, the audience factually isn't in the minority. Mom's have just as much of a hard time making family time because of work as fathers do. Yet we typically don't depict mothers as hardworking breadwinners that don't get enough time with their family.