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Today's sports performances compared to history

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People who argue that Lebron and even more laughably Kobe being better than Jordan seem to forget that Jordan came back in 2001 to play for the Wizards and managed to put up 20-5-5 type seasons at the age of 40 with shoddy legs and a bad back.
 
weekend_warrior said:
The talent level in the NBA is far higher today then it was in the 80's and 90's. Jordan wasn't getting defended by the same level of players that Kobe and Lebron are on a regular basis.
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Yea no thats not true in fact it could be argued that kobe and lebron should be more dominant since their are no dominant big men since tim duncan and kg are almost at the end of their careers.
 
I can't take credit for this, as there was a really good thread on RealGM about Bron's prime compared to the primes of others. However, this poster brought up a good point:

Thats 100% false. More bigs, hand checking or whatever ... all that didn't matter because there was little defense played by the majority of the NBA so its was alot easier to score. Without going into depth I would sum it up saying that the majority of the teams if not all (depending on the year) played alot faster than Mike d'antoni's phoenix suns which was an impossible pace to play good defense. You can't play any real defense playing that fast its impossible.

Theres a reason alot of basketball fans back then said the nba should be called the NDA which mean no defense association and that it was too easy to score in the nba for all positions and also that players played way more defense in college.
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Playing great defense at a faster pace would make players from the 80s and 90s borderline supermen compared to today. That flies in the face of logic and progression. Athletes have gotten better because sports science has gotten better. The SSOL offense of the Suns would've ranked near the bottom of the league back then, and that's one of the best offenses we've seen in the last decade.

Another good point, about the change in defenses:
1) Missing in all of this talk about whether it is harder or easier to score nowadays is any discussion of the illegal defense rule change... previously, the rotating, extremely complex, stifling system defenses of today's Bulls, Celtics, and Spurs were illegal - the best you could do would be to tightly double the ball handler and then immediately go back to your man - you couldn't cover a space on the floor or rotate around to another spot on the floor, that was illegal.

This made offense extremely broken, especially for really strong, tall people. Centers haven't "died out," the rules have just changed so that defenses don't have to be forced incentive-wise (because of the ease with which in-out passing could exploit double-teams in the illegal defense age) mindlessly single cover people in the paint all of the time, which was one reason why centers were so dominant and mostly the superstars before 2000. So if big guys are superstars now, it's because they are at least incredibly skilled to go along with how gigantic they are (Kevin Garnett, LeBron James).

Now, Mike was a freak and a god, but i think, while handchecking probably made things harder for him, the illegal defense rule probably made things easier, too. Handchecking or no, he still got a million FTAs a game, which, coupled with his strength and finishing ability (not so much his outside shooting), made him legendarily efficient.

2) To the person who said Wilt averaged 50 and 20 and we should be really impressed: Other than the fact that he played in a league where probably 90% of the players would never make it in today's league, they played at an absurd, turbo-pace where, if you adjust for possessions, his averages are certainly good but comparable to today's superstars.
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I've made the point about the reason traditional centers are disappearing. The game has changed. Their style of play is outmoded in this guard-dominated, perimeter-oriented game. The defenses are more-complicated today, and now you have defenders who are not just long, but athletic. More athletic than they were 20 years ago. The game has changed, and comparing eras has become difficult. That said, what Bron is doing will vault him to the top of the list. It's a mere formality at this point, as his trajectory is already set. PEACE.
 
Jmanunknown said:
Yea no thats not true in fact it could be argued that kobe and lebron should be more dominant since their are no dominant big men since tim duncan and kg are almost at the end of their careers.
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There are definitely better athletes at the wing position these days, in terms of size and strength that would hound older players like Magic and MJ and Bird.
 
weekend_warrior said:
The talent level in the NBA is far higher today then it was in the 80's and 90's. Jordan wasn't getting defended by the same level of players that Kobe and Lebron are on a regular basis.
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Pfft

The talent level isnt better and more teams and salary caps have watered things down alot
 
Solo said:
Too bad they're both mentally soft whereas Mike was a killer.
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This.


It's why they never lost a finals

his greatest intangible is that he REFUSES to lose.

He can carry a team on his back and did many many times against some of the toughest defenses in NBA history.

Anyone else see the 63 points in a playoff loss against 1986 Boston Celtics (with five of their top six players Hall of Famers) in his first or second year with few teammates of worth?

fucking astounding
 
Jmanunknown said:
Outside of Lebron and D-Wade their are no really great wing defenders who could guard jordan.
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You are thinking only of the super stars (Wade ain't even that good of a defender), but I just mean in general. Guys with exceptional length, size and speed that in the old days would have been 3s and 4s based on size and length, but amazingly have the foot speed to play the 2. The game is constantly evolving.
 
It's probably been mentioned, but with the level of fitness (coupled with the speed of the modern game, and tactics) in soccer today, today's sides could easily defeat the sides of yesteryear, EASILY. And if Pele of 1970 timetravelled to now, he wouldn't be anywhere near as good.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
You are thinking only of the super stars (Wade ain't even that good of a defender), but I just mean in general. Guys with exceptional length, size and speed that in the old days would have been 3s and 4s based on size and length, but amazingly have the foot speed to play the 2. The game is constantly evolving.
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Oh you mean guys like Durant or Paul George and D-Wade is a good defender. No one's gonna doubt that people are getting faster and stronger that is what evolution is about but, most of the games changes have to do with rule changes brought on by the less physical nature of the game not the athletic abilities of the players.

Their are really great athletes in the nba now but that is not the end all be all or the clippers and nuggets would be the best teams in the league and the spurs would not be as good.
 
Yenrot said:
It's probably been mentioned, but with the level of fitness (coupled with the speed of the modern game, and tactics) in soccer today, today's sides could easily defeat the sides of yesteryear, EASILY. And if Pele of 1970 timetravelled to now, he wouldn't be anywhere near as good.
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Only thing I think went backwoulds is defense, so many great clips of players like Bobby Moore on youtube.
Rule changes have made that aspect game very boring.
 
Jmanunknown said:
Oh you mean guys like Durant or Paul George and D-Wade is a good defender. No one's gonna doubt that people are getting faster and stronger that is what evolution is about but, most of the games changes have to do with rule changes brought on by the less physical nature of the game not the athletic abilities of the players.

Their are really great athletes in the nba now but that is not the end all be all or the clippers and nuggets would be the best teams in the league and the spurs would not be as good.
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That's the thing, guys like Duncan and Parker, for as much mileage that they have to still be playing at the level they are, are great athletes. People forget that back in the day, the greats like Magic and Larry and Isiah started breaking down after 10 years or so in the league. Michael took a break after 9. Players being able to play at a higher level for a lot longer is a part of the evolution. At the same time, I struggle with this myself. Sometimes I think that someone like Bill Russell was a product of his time, a 6'9" bean pole of a Center who was able to dominate because the competition was a bunch of shorter, out of shape middle aged white dudes who chain smoked and laid brick in the offseason. On the other hand, it is very possible that the same Bill Russell, if he had grown up during the modern era, with the availability of modern technology and nutrition, would have developed into a hall of famer anyway. It's really an interesting, but sort of impossibly frustrating discussion to have.
 
EliCash said:
In what way are they better?

You stick Kobe or LeBron in Space Jam and see if they would beat the Monstars, they wouldn't have a chance. LeBron would probably leave the Tunesquad and join the Monstars to win. Kobe wouldn't pass to Bugs or Bill Murray and would try a contested fade-away 3 instead of the stretch arm thing that Mike does for the game winner (and if LeBron were to stay with the Looney Tunes he'd probably travel on that last basket).
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I laughed way harder than I should, my early vote for post of the year.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
The talent level was just as, if not more, watered down in the mid 90s due to expedited expansion. You had some sorry ass teams and rosters back then.
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But all the players were more skills and the flexible caps made the great teams super great..
 
During the 90ies we saw a couple of regulation changes that really made a difference on the state of the soccer industry and how the game is played. In 92 the back-pass rule was introduced which meant that goalkeepers could no longer pick up a ball played back to them by a teammate. In 95 the Bosman ruling radically changed the transfer system in Europe. We've also seen a number of changes to the offside rule favoring attacking play.

The point is that soccer today is a much different game than it was before 95. While every generation of soccer players has examples of exceptional talent there's no way of telling how they compare to today's top players. The physical, tactical and technical requirements today are on another level entirely. It stands to reason that some of the stars of the past wouldn't make it in today's game.

One thing is certain. Neither the Pelé nor the Maradona of their time come close the Messi and the Christiano Ronaldo of today.
 
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