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[erragal]

Too many games have tiered progression systems nowadays. RACING games have progression systems in that as you play you unlock better cars, just like better loot. It's just too broad of a term now to say that RPGs are just the numbers and progression system.

That wasn't the point I made. I understand that it's a convention adopted by a vast majority of games due to the psychological principles behind it. You aren't acknowledging that there's any connection between the genre-label RPG and these mechanics; once you acknowledge that then you admit there's a reason someone using short-hand would call them RPG-elements.

It's a lot simpler than attempting to describe why games like Call of Duty use them and how they manipulate people's mental states; game designers really don't want the mainstream media to know how aware they are that they design games to drive compulsive playing.

 

[Jarmel]

So is Heavy Rain an RPG?

It must be if your definition is "making choices and dealing with consequences".

Quite honestly I've only played bits and pieces but yea I can see that. It didn't pop into my head at first.

 

[Palette Swap]

Too many games have tiered progression systems nowadays. RACING games have progression systems in that as you play you unlock better cars, just like better loot. It's just too broad of a term now to say that RPGs are just the numbers and progression system.

You do realize there's a difference between calling something an "RPG element" (one of n defining components) and saying of a game it is an RPG?

Again, a shitload of games have adopted these RPG elements in the last decade. Where did these elements originate? RPGs.

And yes, racing games have RPG elements, I don't see the issue with saying/writing that, it doesn't affect great RPGs and is still true.

Once again, I don't get why OP is so butthurt about one example used to make a valid point. It's not like the guy is coming out and saying "hey, we'll use CoD as an inspiration for RPGs", he's just addressing accessibility issues and says CoD didn't go out of its way to have dumbed down mechanics and yet flourished.

 

[Ahoi-Brause]

...

Is this really your point? That instead of saying "Call of Duty is a hardcore game with RPG elements", he should have said "River City Ransom had RPG elements. So did many other games. Oh and by the way, Call of Duty is a hardcore game with RPG elements. None of these are RPGs, but they have RPG elements. Just in case you're worried, we're not saying that Skyrim is a multiplayer FPS with a character progression system. We still have dialogues, quests, choices, and other elements that are also common in RPGs that Call of Duty doesn't have. Just in case you still don't understand my point, I'm not saying Call of Duty is an RPG, I'm saying it has RPG elements."?

No, I just think it's super stupid that he wanted to somehow mention call of duty in that context. He obviously just mentioned it because he wanted to see Call of Duty being quoted together with skyrim. Same shit bioware did.

 

[erragal]

No, I just think it's super stupid that he wanted to somehow mention call of duty in that context. He obviously just mentioned it because he wanted to see Call of Duty being quoted together with skyrim. Same shit bioware did.

So you're angry about marketing?

 

[Hanmik]

Daikatana.

so you are saying that you gain levels and recieve xp in Daikatana online.. hmm...

 

[Ahoi-Brause]

So you're angry about marketing?

Yeah, basically.
Just make a good rpg and stop parading arround call of duty.
Even fucking squaresoft talked about call of duty when they did FFXIII and what we got was a jrpg where you're running through a hose.

 

[daviyoung]

so you are saying that you gain levels and recieve xp in Daikatana online.. hmm...

You said multiplayer, but whatever.

Battlefield 2142. Online, levels, multiplayer and unlocks.

 

[StuBurns]

River City Ransom has RPG elements--in fact, essentially the same RPG elements as Call of Duty. It's not an RPG. It's a beat-em-up. It's not an RPG. No one would say it's an RPG. Todd Howard wouldn't say it's an RPG. You wouldn't say it's an RPG. But it has RPG elements.

I think you're wrong in that, I just dug thru that Irrational podcast I mentioned.

Ken Levine says it is...

In the multiplayer, it is an RPG

As does Todd Howard...

The RPG that we debate every morning now right now and talk about how it works, and how the system works is Modern Warfare 2 multiplayer

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

Gaming is screwed.

 

[charsace]

I think you're wrong in that, I just dug thru that Irrational podcast I mentioned.

Ken Levine says it is...
As does Todd Howard...

If you look at the origins of the RPG you can see that something like COD's multiplayer fits.

And there are just haters on GAF.

 

[Ahoi-Brause]

You said multiplayer, but whatever.

Battlefield 2142. Online, levels, multiplayer and unlocks.

We could also add stuff like Heavy Gear and Mechwarrior, you also permanently changed the loadout of your character.
Even though it was in singleplayer.

 

[Jarmel]

You do realize there's a difference between calling something an "RPG element" (one of n defining components) and saying of a game it is an RPG?

Again, a shitload of games have adopted these RPG elements in the last decade. Where did these elements originate? RPGs.

And yes, racing games have RPG elements, I don't see the issue with saying/writing that, it doesn't affect great RPGs and is still true.

Once again, I don't get why OP is so butthurt about one example used to make a valid point. It's not like the guy is coming out and saying "hey, we'll use CoD as an inspiration for RPGs", he's just addressing accessibility issues and says CoD didn't go out of its way to have dumbed down mechanics and yet flourished.

However when everyone uses what used to be a RPG only element then it ceases to be a RPG-element.

That wasn't the point I made. I understand that it's a convention adopted by a vast majority of games due to the psychological principles behind it. You aren't acknowledging that there's any connection between the genre-label RPG and these mechanics; once you acknowledge that then you admit there's a reason someone using short-hand would call them RPG-elements.

It's a lot simpler than attempting to describe why games like Call of Duty use them and how they manipulate people's mental states; game designers really don't want the mainstream media to know how aware they are that they design games to drive compulsive playing.

True, there is an association between RPGs and loot(and whatnot). That's why some people still use the term in regards to games like FFXIII. However the usage of what was traditionally a mainline RPG element into pretty much every type of genre has nullified the term. It's part of what used to be a traditional model but due to the usage(yes to spur compulsion gaming especially in competitive multiplayer) the term changes.

 

[Maxrunner]

Someone should ask him if the wii U is also a teddy rexpin smarty bear....

 

[Lostconfused]

Gaming is screwed.

The indie scene has it covered.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I think you're wrong in that, I just dug thru that Irrational podcast I mentioned.

Ken Levine says it is...
As does Todd Howard...

In the context of the quote in this thread, he's not saying it's an RPG or exclusively an RPG. I haven't listened to the irrational podcast. I assume in that podcast, he's not arguing it's exclusively an RPG, that RPGs are only character advancement systems, or that Skyrim is not going to have dialogue or quest systems.

Even in the quote you post from Howard, he's referring to it from the third clause in the list as an RPG "system". Which, again, I think you can go back and forth about the debate between a subsystem and a mechanic and a system and what the boundaries between those things are.

However when everyone uses what used to be a RPG only element then it ceases to be a RPG-element.

Jumping for level traversal used to be a platforming only element.

What's a platformer again, I can't remember the definition.

 

[StuBurns]

In the context of the quote in this thread, he's not saying it's an RPG or exclusively an RPG. I haven't listened to the irrational podcast. I assume in that podcast, he's not arguing it's exclusively an RPG, that RPGs are only character advancement systems, or that Skyrim is not going to have dialogue or quest systems.

Even in the quote you post from Howard, he's referring to it from the third clause in the list as an RPG "system". Which, again, I think you can go back and forth about the debate between a subsystem and a mechanic and a system and what the boundaries between those things are.

I disagree, he calls it an RPG, you said he wouldn't, I'm just point that out.

 

[Alexios]

ok mr. Name one FPS multiplayer game that had Xp and leveling in it before CoD4: Modern Warfare..?

Battlefield 2 and 2142, in much the same way even. How could you not know of that series...

 

[MMaRsu]

I still don't and will never understand GAF's hate for COD. The multiplayer is very well designed and well mades. Badly designed mp games die horrible deaths at retail. Words get around the mp sucks and the game just dies. COD is well alive.

CS was equally mainstream back in 2000; and it had tons of kids and loud racism-spewing teenagers playing. Before the pro-gaming bs infected CS, the demographic was actually pretty much 10x less mature than today's cod fanbase.

If you had been there back in the days, you'd know this.

Cod is only still alive because of the fact that the games have changed maybe 5% since Call of Duty 4 : Modern Warfare. The engine is the same, the graphics look the same, the gameplay is mostly the same. Plus it gets more ridiculous with each outing because how are you supposed to top the last one?

That's why they are going all out with this new one, total global warfare. Any indiciation of CoD being a realistic shooter is already gone, although they try to present it as one. It's total sci-fi balony I always find it funny when people say I play cod cause I find realistic shooters awesome or I dont play halo cause its sci-fi.

 

[Jarmel]

Jumping for level traversal used to be a platforming only element.

What's a platformer again, I can't remember the definition.

Come on. A platformer consists mostly of a very specific type of gameplay. Meat Boy and Mario's main type of gameplay(by main type I mean the action that is used the most and which the level design is oriented around) is very similar.

I haven't even seen the term "platforming-element" in god knows how long.

 

[R_thanatos]

Wait so the uncharted beta i'm playing since the last 10 days was a rpg ?

 

[ultron87]

Cod is only still alive because of the fact that the games have changed maybe 5% since Call of Duty 4 : Modern Warfare. The engine is the same, the graphics look the same, the gameplay is mostly the same. Plus it gets more ridiculous with each outing because how are you supposed to top the last one?

That's why they are going all out with this new one, total global warfare. Any indiciation of CoD being a realistic shooter is already gone, although they try to present it as one. It's total sci-fi balony I always find it funny when people say I play cod cause I find realistic shooters awesome or I dont play halo cause its sci-fi.

Wait, it's still alive because it hasn't changed? I thought that is why MW3 was the time when the series was going to die (just like Black Ops was too)!

Now I'm just confused.

 

[Rickenslacker]

ok mr. Name one FPS multiplayer game that had Xp and leveling in it before CoD4: Modern Warfare..?

Would Counter-Strike apply? It's not persistent, but it's conceptually similar.

 

[daviyoung]

Battlefield 2 and 2142, in much the same way even. How could you not know of that series...

Battlefield dominated PC, but consoles only got in on the action with CoD.

Then there was a mis-step. DICE, made Bad Company which concentrated more on over-taking CoD's singleplayer, when they should have stuck to the online multiplayer of previous Battlefields.

Although Bad Company's online was still really good.

 

[MMaRsu]

Wait, it's still alive because it hasn't changed? I thought that is why MW3 was the time when the series was going to die (just like Black Ops was too)!

Now I'm just confused.

When did I say it was going to die? I think you have me confused with somebody else.

And frankly yes I think it is hugely popular because it hasn't changed.

Wait so the uncharted beta i'm playing since the last 10 days was a rpg ?

It has RPG elements to it yes. Although at this point in time I'm not sure we can even call unlocks/persistant progression and leveling to be RPG elements anymore.

 

[Alexios]

Battlefield dominated PC, but consoles only got in on the action with CoD.

I don't see what that has to do with that discussion. Still, if that's his excuse, that he's a console gamer for the most part, and so doesn't know or care to know what happens with anything outside his own little world, then he shouldn't be talking about industry-wide issues and challenging people into such discussions as if he knows best and is so sure that what he's asking has no answer or whatever... But anyway that's not the excuse he gave hmself so, we'll see.

 

[Blue Ninja]

ok mr. Name one FPS multiplayer game that had Xp and leveling in it before CoD4: Modern Warfare..?

Well, Halo 2 and 3 come to mind.

 

[ultron87]

When did I say it was going to die? I think you have me confused with somebody else.

And frankly yes I think it is hugely popular because it hasn't changed.

You didn't. But a ton of people on here do think that it is going to die because people think it is getting stale. And have thought that for previous installments of the series.

I think the majority of their sample size for "everyone think is getting stale" is people on GAF who agree with them.

 

[Ahoi-Brause]

You didn't. But a ton of people on here do think that it is going to die because people think it is getting stale. And have thought that for previous installments of the series.

I think the majority of their sample size for "everyone think is getting stale" is people on GAF who agree with them.

Well CoD is only where Halo was before it.
It's inevitable that there will be a new series that will be hot shit soon.

 

[mt1200]

Well, Halo 2 and 3 come to mind.

I played hundreds of halo 2 multiplayer matches, and I dont remember any leveling or grinding

 

[MMaRsu]

You didn't. But a ton of people on here do think that it is going to die because people think it is getting stale. And have thought that for previous installments of the series.

I think the majority of their sample size for "everyone think is getting stale" is people on GAF who agree with them.

I think for a lot of people the games have already gotten stale. Obviously CoD will still sell more but BF3 is gonna be a big seller. At some point there will be a new shooter that will be crowned king. And hopefully it won't be milked out over 8 games with the same engine etc.

 

[Cru Jones]

However when everyone uses what used to be a RPG only element then it ceases to be a RPG-element.



True, there is an association between RPGs and loot(and whatnot). That's why some people still use the term in regards to games like FFXIII. However the usage of what was traditionally a mainline RPG element into pretty much every type of genre has nullified the term. It's part of what used to be a traditional model but due to the usage(yes to spur compulsion gaming especially in competitive multiplayer) the term changes.

I disagree, just because something becomes mainstream doesn't create a situation in which it's origins should no longer be the best descriptor for it

 

[subversus]

ok mr. Name one FPS multiplayer game that had Xp and leveling in it before CoD4: Modern Warfare..?

Battlefield 2 as people noted before me.

 

[StuBurns]

Battlefield 2 as people noted before me.

Indeed, and I guess CS did it also, although that's per match, more like a DotA take on an RPG.

 

[Blue Ninja]

I played hundreds of halo 2 multiplayer matches, and I dont remember any leveling or grinding

It had EXP you gained from winning matches, which affected the TrueSkill level that appeared next to your name. So it had leveling, in a way.

 

[Ahoi-Brause]

Well yeah, the overall point is that it's fucking dumb for a guy who makes rpgs since he entered the industry to take MW2 of all games as an example for rpg gameplay, with a system that's neither new or unique to modern warfare and is even a staple in racing games today.
Like... if that's your creative horizon you are doing something wrong.
Why not look into the past at stuff like darklands... or even in the present at stuff like minecraft.
But no - fucking modern warfare again.

 

[charsace]

Well yeah, the overall point is that it's fucking dumb for a guy who makes rpgs since he entered the industry to take MW2 of all games as an example for rpg gameplay, with a system that's neither new or unique to modern warfare and is even a staple in racing games today.
Like... if that's your creative horizon you are doing something wrong.
Why not look into the past at stuff like darklands... or even in the present at stuff like minecraft.
But no - fucking modern warfare again.

Maybe he uses it so that a lot of people, the type that don't play rpgs, can understand the point he is trying to make?

 

[Ahoi-Brause]

Maybe he uses it so that a lot of people, the type that don't play rpgs, can understand the point he is trying to make?

Well and those people are going to magically flock to Skyrim because he namedropped CoD... that's probably his train of thought - but it's still pretty stupid and didn't work for bioware, crytek or squaresoft.

 

[charsace]

Well and those people are going to magically flock to Skyrim because he namedropped CoD... that's probably his train of thought - but it's still pretty stupid and didn't work for bioware, crytek or squaresoft.

I think your line of reasoning as to why he used it is wrong. He used it because a wider range of people would understand his point.

I would explain my game the same way Howard did because he follows a similar rule that I do; when you explain something explain it so that a child can understand it.

 

[Ahoi-Brause]

I think your line of reasoning as to why he used it is wrong. He used it because a wider range of people would understand his point.

I would explain my game the same way Howard did because he follows a similar rule that I do; when you explain something explain it so that a child can understand it.

But kids aren't supposed to play modern warfare yet... oh who am I kidding?

 

[WanderingWind]

Damn, Ahoi. You hate marketing on a deep, personal level.

 

[Orayn]

Damn, Ahoi. You hate marketing on a deep, personal level.

NO NAMEDROPPING OTHER GAMES
NO COMPARISONS TO HELP PEOPLE GET IT
STERILE DESCRIPTIONS ONLY
FINAL DESTINATION

 

[hawkshockey11]

"Play a role on the battlefield while gaining experience points for actions. Level up and unlock special abilities that can be activated after certain amount of enemies are destroyed. Unlock and buy new weapons with the in-game currency as your character levels up." etc

That is Call of Duty Black Ops
If what I described does not have any rpg elements then no games have rpg elements.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

OP doesn't understand OP.

 

[subversus]

NO NAMEDROPPING OTHER GAMES
NO COMPARISONS TO HELP PEOPLE GET IT
STERILE DESCRIPTIONS ONLY
FINAL DESTINATION

NO MARKETING AT ALL BITCH

THE GAME SHOULD SELL BY WORD OF MOUTH ONLY

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

OP doesn't understand OP.

OP doesn't understand what "elements" means, apparently.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Because it's such a random conclusion. You act like people are braindead. Someone might buy an elder scrolls game because he loves fantasy and shit, but nobody in their right mind would buy an elder scrolls game because they loved custom loadouts in call of duty so much. That's not how real people work and that's not how reality works.

God you're throwing words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that "hey people who love cod will pick up RPGs because of loadouts". No I said CoD is a gateway game and gamers who have CoD as their bread and butter will be more open to any system that uses similar understarable language.

 

[Ahoi-Brause]

God you're throwing words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that "hey people who love cod will pick up RPGs because of loadouts". No I said CoD is a gateway game and gamers who have CoD as their bread and butter will be more open to any system that uses similar understarable language.

My gateway game was super mario land and nobody needed to lure me into playing DOOM 2 with stuff like "you see, it's just like mario, you also kill monsters in this!".
You act like people who play CoD are empty vessels that had no prior contact with pop culture AT ALL.
If somebody likes orcs and shit he's probably going to play some rpg too somewhen.
Nobody is going to pick up a fantasy game because he likes customizing his soldier in CoD so much... he's probably going to pick up bad company 2 next in that case.

 

[Palette Swap]

My gateway game was super mario land and nobody needed to lure me into playing DOOM 2 with stuff like "you see, it's just like mario, you also kill monsters in this!".

Seriously, you need to read, or comprehend, the interview from your OP.

 

[MMaRsu]

My gateway game was super mario land and nobody needed to lure me into playing DOOM 2 with stuff like "you see, it's just like mario, you also kill monsters in this!".
You act like people who play CoD are empty vessels that had no prior contact with pop culture AT ALL.
If somebody likes orcs and shit he's probably going to play some rpg too somewhen.
Nobody is going to pick up a fantasy game because he likes customizing his soldier in CoD so much... he's probably going to pick up bad company 2 next in that case.

A lot of people buy a console just to play call of duty. They only play call of duty. They might not get any other gaming references at all.

I do think that these types of people will probably not buy anything else anyway.