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[airmangataosenai]

Do you realize that you should apprise yourself of a topic that you wish to discuss?

Someone literally is representing themselves as a nazi.

We've reached a point where moderate's inaction is leading to a reprisal of hate groups, and minorities and allies are forced into a position where they have to defend the most vulnerable.

After Charlottesville, I don't want to hear tut tutting of isolated incidents and how it makes minorities look when Kaepernick takes a knee and is blacklisted for it.

What is your solution to combating the rise of white nationalists?

Win the next election, maybe advocate for expansions to hate crime laws in particular against gay/trans people? I am not an expert on policy so that is a difficult question to answer.

You are wrong on direct response by the way. Do you honestly believe some of these alt right celebs like Milo would be where they are today without the protests against them? They have no ideas, they simply say inflammatory things to provoke a reaction and then point to said reaction as an assault on their free speech. Is it dishonest? No shit it is, but that is the reality we live in and ignoring that construct is akin to giving up. You can hate me or think whatever you want about my intentions but I absolutely care about these issues and see that leftist protestors are being manipulated into playing a part which frames these people in our public discourse, who again I agree ARE dangerous, as the victims.

 

[ZeoVGM]

How many of the people at these protestsare actual skin heads with Swastika tattoos and the like? Most the these people are more subtle than that which is a part of the strategy.

If you're marching in a Nazi rally, you are a Nazi.

This isn't difficult.

 

[Oni Jazar]

I have no love for Nazi and I love the passion people bring to the table here but gaf should learn more about the power & effectiveness of civil disobedience & non-violence. It is highly effective with individual & collective protests.

Heroes like MLK & Ghandi changed the world with love and truth, not punches. Violence brings fear and fear brings more violence. Love diffuses that violence and ends the cycle. Yes Hitler wouldn't have been defeated with non-violence but we're not fighting Nazi Germany / Hitler. We're up against stupid assholes on the street whose only real power is how you react.

"Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding."

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

 

[Nipo]

I have no love for Nazi and I love the passion people bring to the table here but gaf should learn more about the power & effectiveness of civil disobedience & non-violence. It is highly effective with individual & collective protests.

Heroes like MLK & Ghandi changed the world with love and truth, not punches. Violence brings fear and fear brings more violence. Love diffuses that violence and ends the cycle. Yes Hitler wouldn't have been defeated with non-violence but we're not fighting Nazi Germany / Hitler. We're up against stupid assholes on the street whose only real power is how you react.

"Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding."

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

You should read some more history. The civil rights movement and indian independence were very violent. Non-violent protest almost never accomplishes anything significant at the nation state level.

 

[Jeffolation]

Violence brings fear and fear brings more violence. Love diffuses that violence and ends the cycle.

Is this from Star Wars?

 

[Bastables]

You should read some more history. The civil rights movement and indian independence were very violent. Non-violent protest almost never accomplishes anything significant at the nation state level.

Pretty much this, civil disobedience did result in riots and deaths through massacres.

Plus

Government of India through the Ministry of Home Affairs has later notified 38 movements/struggles across Indian territories as the ones that led to the country gaining self-rule and ending the British Raj. The Kallara-Pangode Struggle is one of these 39 agitations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence_movement

The Raj it self cited several violent movements as playing a significant role in Independence.


After two Japanese attacks on Christmas Island in late February and early March 1942, relations between the British officers and their Indian troops broke down. On the night of 10 March, the Indian troops assisted by Sikh policemen mutinied, killing five British soldiers and imprisoning the remaining 21 Europeans on the island. Later on 31 March, a Japanese fleet arrived at the island and the Indians surrendered.[67]

The Royal Indian Navy Mutiny encompasses a total strike and subsequent mutiny by Indian sailors of the Royal Indian revolt on board ship and shore establishments at Bombay (Mumbai) harbour on 18 February 1946. From the initial flashpoint in Bombay, the mutiny spread and found support throughout British India, from Karachi to Calcutta and ultimately came to involve 78 ships, 20 shore establishments and 20,000 sailors.[68]

The agitations, mass strikes, demonstrations and consequently support for the mutineers, therefore continued several days even after the mutiny had been called off. Along with this, the assessment may be made that it described in crystal clear terms to the government that the British Indian Armed forces could no longer be universally relied upon for support in crisis, and even more it was more likely itself to be the source of the sparks that would ignite trouble in a country fast slipping out of the scenario of political settlement.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Yes Hitler wouldn't have been defeated with non-violence but we're not fighting Nazi Germany / Hitler. We're up against stupid assholes on the street whose only real power is how you react.

This is demonstratably false and you thinking this is the problem and the reason their ideologies exist, persist, and threaten societies.

And don't quote King again. You don't have enough perspective on him or his opinions to do so and you attempting to invoke him in a discussion about literal Nazis would have him rolling in his grave. Fuck right off. Thanks.

 

[Ozigizo]

I have no love for Nazi and I love the passion people bring to the table here but gaf should learn more about the power & effectiveness of civil disobedience & non-violence. It is highly effective with individual & collective protests.

Heroes like MLK & Ghandi changed the world with love and truth, not punches. Violence brings fear and fear brings more violence. Love diffuses that violence and ends the cycle. Yes Hitler wouldn't have been defeated with non-violence but we're not fighting Nazi Germany / Hitler. We're up against stupid assholes on the street whose only real power is how you react.

"Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding."

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

Here they are folks, the MLK quoting centrists have arrived.


T-minus 30 minutes until someone links the article about Daryl Davis.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Win the next election, maybe advocate for expansions to hate crime laws in particular against gay/trans people? I am not an expert on policy so that is a difficult question to answer.

You are wrong on direct response by the way. Do you honestly believe some of these alt right celebs like Milo would be where they are today without the protests against them? They have no ideas, they simply say inflammatory things to provoke a reaction and then point to said reaction as an assault on their free speech. Is it dishonest? No shit it is, but that is the reality we live in and ignoring that construct is akin to giving up. You can hate me or think whatever you want about my intentions but I absolutely care about these issues and see that leftist protestors are being manipulated into playing a part which frames these people in our public discourse, who again I agree ARE dangerous, as the victims.

Winning the next election is a short-term solution. We went from Obama to Trump, if that does not give you pause on why winning an election is simply not enough, then I do not know what to tell you. Legislating hate crime laws towards the LGBT community does nothing to deter Nazism from spreading in society. It will spread regardless of any legislation combatting it, much like how people will continue to drink and drive albeit the laws against it.

Milo Y. was slowly building his following long before the Berkeley University riots, so the riots did not cause him to catapult to fame when he already gained infamy well before that.

The logic you're employing is the same reasoning that people use to place blame on the victim, by the way. For example, somehow the bullied is worse than the bully when they decide to fight back. They could have taken the "high road," but they chose not to.

Also, Nazis do not care about the way their views are framed in the mainstream. Nazis are almost universally detested in the US, if they cared so much about making inroads with mainstream media, then they would have sanitized their message or veiled it under something else entirely.

EDIT:
Not sure why people always quote MLK and Ghandi in these threads when the movements they're associated with were absolutely violent in nature either. Violence and obstruction force people to talk. You think White folk would even know what BLM is if they didn't cause traffic or riot?

 

[XMonkey]

Here they are folks, the MLK quoting centrists have arrived.


T-minus 30 minutes until someone links the article about Daryl Davis.

It’s like a script on repeat in these threads. Same arguments round and round, same thoughts over and over. Really annoying at this point in the timeline.

 

[The Kree]

I have no love for Nazi and I love the passion people bring to the table here but gaf should learn more about the power & effectiveness of civil disobedience & non-violence. It is highly effective with individual & collective protests.

Heroes like MLK & Ghandi changed the world with love and truth, not punches. Violence brings fear and fear brings more violence. Love diffuses that violence and ends the cycle. Yes Hitler wouldn't have been defeated with non-violence but we're not fighting Nazi Germany / Hitler. We're up against stupid assholes on the street whose only real power is how you react.

"Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding."

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

Ghandi and MLK were both murdered.

 

[Oni Jazar]

Here they are folks, the MLK quoting centrists have arrived.


T-minus 30 minutes until someone links the article about Daryl Davis.

Is this a debate or not? This isn't about centrism. I don't think both sides are the same. This is about effective protests. I know which work and which don't as I've been in more than I can count

Ghandi and MLK were both murdered.

Yes and they are models for humanity. I never said non-violence was easy.

Not sure why people always quote MLK and Ghandi in these threads when the movements they're associated with were absolutely violent in nature either. Violence and obstruction force people to talk. You think White folk would even know what BLM is if they didn't cause traffic or riot?

You're confused. Protests on the streets IS civil disobedience. YES make others uncomfortable YES get in their face and make noise show NO VIOLENCE. You think I don't want people taking a knee or blocking traffic? Lol

 

[Ozigizo]

Is this a debate or not? This isn't about centrism. I don't think both sides are the same. This is about effective protests. I know which work and which don't as I've been in more than I can count



Yes and they are models for humanity. I never said non-violence was easy.

You should take time and learn about MLK, and not just quote him when it suits you. At this point, it's offensive.

 

[JettDash]

I have no love for Nazi and I love the passion people bring to the table here but gaf should learn more about the power & effectiveness of civil disobedience & non-violence. It is highly effective with individual & collective protests.

Heroes like MLK & Ghandi changed the world with love and truth, not punches. Violence brings fear and fear brings more violence. Love diffuses that violence and ends the cycle. Yes Hitler wouldn't have been defeated with non-violence but we're not fighting Nazi Germany / Hitler. We're up against stupid assholes on the street whose only real power is how you react.

"Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding."

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

We solved the problem of Nazis back in the 40s by killing them. Worked pretty well.

ETA: Nazis were stupid assholes on the street until they gained power.

 

[Crossing Eden]

How many of the people at these protestsare actual skin heads with Swastika tattoos and the like? Most the these people are more subtle than that which is a part of the strategy.

If they're marching with nazis then they're nazis. If the best thing you can say about a person is that they tolerate nazism and march alongside nazis but aren't really nazis, then that person is likely a racist POS themselves.

 

[Enzom21]

Imagine if GAF had been around during the rise of the Nazi party in the 20's. I have no doubt a lot of you "not real nazis" "don't attack nazis" folks would being saying the same shit.

Is this a debate or not? This isn't about centrism. I don't think both sides are the same. This is about effective protests. I know which work and which don't as I've been in more than I can count.

Violent protests have never worked?

 

[Dude Abides]

Is this a debate or not? This isn't about centrism. I don't think both sides are the same. This is about effective protests. I know which work and which don't as I've been in more than I can count



Yes and they are models for humanity. I never said non-violence was easy.

You might want to assess the relative efficacy of violent vs. non-violent resistance on the basis of historical events rather than your personal experience.

 

[Autoignition]

People in this thread have to stop conflating Nazism as an ideology with one lone, singular Nazi. Numbers and reach both matter.

If you see a Nazi demonstration with a crowd, yes, your open avenue is a peaceful counter-protest. You can't start riots in the street, you can't start turf wars, you can't turn it into a free for all brawler. That's how people fucking die.

If you see a single Nazi stomping around and being a shithead, you shut him up and put him down with a solid right hook.

It's not like we're talking quantum physics here.

 

[Oni Jazar]

You should take time and learn about MLK, and not just quote him when it suits you. At this point, it's offensive.

Feel free to educate me as I have taken multiple classes on the subject (social justice), but honestly it has been a while. Are you saying his words are wrong or I'm just misinterpreting them?

 

[Ozigizo]

Feel free to educate me as I have taken multiple classes on the subject

Lol.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

This is demonstratably false and you thinking this is the problem and the reason their ideologies exist, persist, and threaten societies.

And don't quote King again. You don't have enough perspective on him or his opinions to do so and you attempting to invoke him in a discussion about literal Nazis would have him rolling in his grave. Fuck right off. Thanks.

Yeah, this line on repeat shows how little people actually know or care what's going on.

 

[Phrynobatrachus]

If you see a Nazi demonstration with a crowd, yes, your open avenue is a peaceful counter-protest. You can't start riots in the street, you can't start turf wars, you can't turn it into a free for all brawler. That's how people fucking die.

how the fuck does a nazi murder someone with a car at a peaceful counter-protest and you still come in here and say this

 

[Foffy]

I have no love for Nazi and I love the passion people bring to the table here but gaf should learn more about the power & effectiveness of civil disobedience & non-violence. It is highly effective with individual & collective protests.

Heroes like MLK & Ghandi changed the world with love and truth, not punches. Violence brings fear and fear brings more violence. Love diffuses that violence and ends the cycle. Yes Hitler wouldn't have been defeated with non-violence but we're not fighting Nazi Germany / Hitler. We're up against stupid assholes on the street whose only real power is how you react.

"Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding."

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

The problem is we have used the idea of nonviolent protests as some example of nobility, of a goal to name for.

Even Vietnam protests were violent. MLK thought the likes of Thich Naht Hanh, a Zen Buddhist, should have gotten prizes for his remarks on peace. But he was of the same discipline and understanding of mind and the cosmos that had people set themselves on fire in an act of protest. They used their compassion for sentient beings as a weapon to highlight violence, and to engage in acts of violence on themselves.

Don't put nonviolence and compassion on some romantic pedestal. They are goals and actions from a place of compassion and reason.

You are better off asking yourself a very direct question: do humans change via reason, or futility? Our species has historical examples that lean more one way than another, I assure you...

Do I want the avoidance of conflict, thus fear, thus suffering? Yes. But does society leave that door open? No, it's often the first door that's closed.

 

[sprsk]

1. I can’t believe I watched that whole clip
2. I can’t believe people watch Bil Maher
3. Can we punch Bill Maher in the face? For aiding and abetting hate speech, I mean.

 

[Jyester]

A poster in another thread summed up my feelings pretty well: I'm in favor of Nazis getting punched, and I'm in favor of the assailants getting prosecuted, because them's the rules. Better make sure to invest in a hoodie.

In my country, there are laws against hate speech. I always find it odd to see how vehemently people like Maher defend free speech. I know that this is the framework they're used to, but it's not like Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium have turned into police states. Far less so than the US, I'd say.

That said, I wish some of the people in here would stop immediately conflating people who advocate for a non-violent solution with Nazi apologists. They don't share your experience, and you don't share theirs. You're probably on the same side, so maybe try to engage rather than immediately telling them to fuck off.

 

[The Kree]

Is this a debate or not? This isn't about centrism. I don't think both sides are the same. This is about effective protests. I know which work and which don't as I've been in more than I can count



Yes and they are models for humanity. I never said non-violence was easy.



You're confused. Protests on the streets IS civil disobedience. YES make others uncomfortable YES get in their face and make noise show NO VIOLENCE. You think I don't want people taking a knee or blocking traffic? Lol

If black and brown Americans and Jews and homosexuals do not assert and defend themselves, they will be exterminated by white supremacists. The rest of White America will not come to their senses and demand an end to the aggression, they will not come to their defense, they will not jump in front of the bullet. They will let them die because their instinct for self preservation will override your ridiculous notions of model humanity that transcends race and gender and orientation.

 

[televator]

I see we got the MLK argument dragged in by master Yoda.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

You're probably on the same side, so maybe try to engage rather than immediately telling them to fuck off.

I get what you're saying, but I don't actually think this is true.

I wouldn't say anyone who'd prefer non-violent solutions to dealing with Nazis and Nazi ideology is a sympathizer, but many of those people simply do not view the current situation as a threat. If you look at all of the ridiculous hypotheticals some devise ("peaceful" Nazis, child Nazis) you can see they don't take this seriously.

In the same vein is those who would use the words and actions of people killed by white supremacists to tell minorities not to oppose white supremacists, those who overlook the murders committed by white supremacists in the name of white supremacy to speak of hypothetical beatings of white supremacists, and those who feel compelled to defend the free speech of openly violent white supremacists but remain curiously silent when the actual free speech of minorities is threatened by the government.

The refusal to be honest is one of the biggest roadblocks to meaningful discussion. People are free to think and say what they want, but won't be taken seriously if they are transparently dishonest.

 

[ZeoVGM]

If your sentence begins with "I'm not fan of Nazis BUT...," you are about to say something stupid.

So don't.

 

[NoRéN]

If your sentence begins with "I'm not fan of Nazis BUT...," you are about to say something stupid.

So don't.

Same people that start off with "no offense but..." when discussing people of other races.

 

[PixelatedBookake]

I have no love for Nazi and I love the passion people bring to the table here but gaf should learn more about the power & effectiveness of civil disobedience & non-violence. It is highly effective with individual & collective protests.

Heroes like MLK & Ghandi changed the world with love and truth, not punches. Violence brings fear and fear brings more violence. Love diffuses that violence and ends the cycle. Yes Hitler wouldn't have been defeated with non-violence but we're not fighting Nazi Germany / Hitler. We're up against stupid assholes on the street whose only real power is how you react.

"Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding."

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

Bro...come on. Nazis are stopped by fighting them. Political discourse doesn't work with people who want to systematically exterminate the "un-pure"

 

[Oni Jazar]

If your sentence begins with "I'm not fan of Nazis BUT...," you are about to say something stupid.

So don't.

There's a lot of anger in this thread that dismisses arguments calling people centrists or nazi sympathizers. I'm neither and made sure it's known. I just stand for the same guiding principles that those in BLM stand for. Something that many here can learn from.

"We are committed to collectively, lovingly and courageously working vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension all people. As we forge our path, we intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting."

http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/

 

[Dude Abides]

There's a lot of anger in this thread that dismisses arguments calling people centrists or nazi sympathizers. I'm neither and made sure it's known. I just stand for the same guiding principles that those in BLM stand for. Something that many here can learn from.

"We are committed to collectively, lovingly and courageously working vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension all people. As we forge our path, we intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting."

http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/

What's that have to do with whether punching Nazis is ok? That quote doesn't say anything one way or the other about violence or nonviolence. Honestly, you might not get such a hostile reaction if you Offered a bit more than glib platitudes and facile quotes from other people peppered with telling us how great you are.

 

[Ozigizo]

What's that have to do with whether punching Nazis is ok? That quote doesn't say anything one way or the other about violence or nonviolence. Honestly, you might not get such a hostile reaction if you Offered a bit more than glib platitudes and facile quotes from other people peppered with telling us how great you are.

Hey man, he took classes.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

There's a lot of anger in this thread that dismisses arguments calling people centrists or nazi sympathizers. I'm neither and made sure it's known. I just stand for the same guiding principles that those in BLM stand for. Something that many here can learn from.

"We are committed to collectively, lovingly and courageously working vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension all people. As we forge our path, we intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting."

http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/

Is this new age MLK quoting?

 

[Enzom21]

There's a lot of anger in this thread that dismisses arguments calling people centrists or nazi sympathizers. I'm neither and made sure it's known. I just stand for the same guiding principles that those in BLM stand for. Something that many here can learn from.

"We are committed to collectively, lovingly and courageously working vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension all people. As we forge our path, we intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting."

http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/

So have any violent protests been effective? Yes or no?

 

[Shaanyboi]

If you see a Nazi demonstration with a crowd, yes, your open avenue is a peaceful counter-protest. You can't start riots in the street, you can't start turf wars, you can't turn it into a free for all brawler. That's how people fucking die.

Nazis are already beating and murdering people involved with peaceful counter protests. Try again.

 

[Great Rumbler]

If black and brown Americans and Jews and homosexuals do not assert and defend themselves, they will be exterminated by white supremacists. The rest of White America will not come to their senses and demand an end to the aggression, they will not come to their defense, they will not jump in front of the bullet. They will let them die because their instinct for self preservation will override your ridiculous notions of model humanity that transcends race and gender and orientation.

Heather Heyer was white.

 

[Phrynobatrachus]

Heather Heyer was white.

radical leftists aren't really White America

 

[HiredN00bs]

I always have to wonder what the end game of this whole "let's punch our problems away" thing is. It's not like there's a batman that fights criminals for us. If its just to scare them from attenting these neo nazi marches then I don't know how effective that is ( I'd like to think that make them lose their job is much effective because that actually hits them where it hurts)
And no, not wanting to solve something with violence doesn't mean agreeing with them. Because I've yet to see a reasonable explanation as to why that's a good idea. ( I get that you want to punch the bad guy)



Actually, the fact the the people that are suppose to represent law an order are corrupt as hell does make the whole thing more of a mess

There is no end. It's just bloviation and revelry, while the hard boring work to actually fix things stays hard, boring, and largely ignored.

A poster in another thread summed up my feelings pretty well: I'm in favor of Nazis getting punched, and I'm in favor of the assailants getting prosecuted, because them's the rules. Better make sure to invest in a hoodie.

In my country, there are laws against hate speech. I always find it odd to see how vehemently people like Maher defend free speech. I know that this is the framework they're used to, but it's not like Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium have turned into police states. Far less so than the US, I'd say.

That said, I wish some of the people in here would stop immediately conflating people who advocate for a non-violent solution with Nazi apologists. They don't share your experience, and you don't share theirs. You're probably on the same side, so maybe try to engage rather than immediately telling them to fuck off.

Boom. Especially the part about hate speech laws and the comparative roles of police in the US vs. Europe. I'm so for crafting new laws to go after these hate groups in the US.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

Wait, wait, wait. Isn't there any law in the US that constitutes illegal for people to express themselves in a racist way and/or wear in public symbols of hate and racism?

Like, If i go to the streets and scream "burn all jews", I won't get arrested for it?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Wait, wait, wait. Isn't there any law in the US that constitutes illegal for people to express themselves in a racist way and/or wear in public symbols of hate and racism?

Like, If i go to the streets and scream "burn all jews", I won't get arrested for it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_in_the_United_States

might help.

 

[JettDash]

Wait, wait, wait. Isn't there any law in the US that constitutes illegal for people to express themselves in a racist way and/or wear in public symbols of hate and racism?

Like, If i go to the streets and scream "burn all jews", I won't get arrested for it?

No and such laws are unconstitutional.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

No and such laws are unconstitutional.

Holy shit... I wasn't aware, thanks.

Yeah this is a thing that has gone too far. Who thought it would be a good idea for people to be able to freely express hate against other people, in public?

 

[Thornton Reed]

I have no love for Nazi and I love the passion people bring to the table here but gaf should learn more about the power & effectiveness of civil disobedience & non-violence. It is highly effective with individual & collective protests.

Heroes like MLK & Ghandi changed the world with love and truth, not punches. Violence brings fear and fear brings more violence. Love diffuses that violence and ends the cycle. Yes Hitler wouldn't have been defeated with non-violence but we're not fighting Nazi Germany / Hitler. We're up against stupid assholes on the street whose only real power is how you react.

"Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding."

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

I think your sentiment is coming from the right place but I also think you’re wrong if you think showing an actual nazi love and compassion would some how change the way they think? Do you fully understand what they believe in? You know what they did, they want to do it again.

Associating yourself self with Nazis means you believe in mass genocide, ethic cleansing and racial superiority. It’s a package. If you’re wearing an armband or waving a flag you need to be in a cell or a box.

 

[Joe T.]

Bro...come on. Nazis are stopped by fighting them. Political discourse doesn't work with people who want to systematically exterminate the "un-pure"

Is that what you told Barack Obama when he quoted Nelson Mandela on Twitter?

 

[thepotatoman]

Let's say all the optics and slippery slopes arguments against punching Nazis is true, and it was a net negative to do the action overall.

Can we still at least say that the nazi deserved it? I don't mean do you agree with their opinions, but that you recognize wearing that armband as an evil act that deserves a fairly severe form of punishment, and it's just too bad that maybe the situation doesn't allow for that punishment to be productive overall.

Maybe there is a tactics or unforeseen consequences discussion to be had, but some of these arguments like Bill Maher's come off as simply being more morally offended by the puncher than the person publically promoting gas chambers, and that's what I find scary. Not because I think Maher is a secret nazi, but because he doesn't seem to care that much about other people being nazis.

 

[Jyester]

I get what you're saying, but I don't actually think this is true.

I wouldn't say anyone who'd prefer non-violent solutions to dealing with Nazis and Nazi ideology is a sympathizer, but many of those people simply do not view the current situation as a threat. If you look at all of the ridiculous hypotheticals some devise ("peaceful" Nazis, child Nazis) you can see they don't take this seriously.

In the same vein is those who would use the words and actions of people killed by white supremacists to tell minorities not to oppose white supremacists, those who overlook the murders committed by white supremacists in the name of white supremacy to speak of hypothetical beatings of white supremacists, and those who feel compelled to defend the free speech of openly violent white supremacists but remain curiously silent when the actual free speech of minorities is threatened by the government.

The refusal to be honest is one of the biggest roadblocks to meaningful discussion. People are free to think and say what they want, but won't be taken seriously if they are transparently dishonest.

I'm sure there's a bunch of intellectually dishonest posters out there, but I think that at least as many posters are pure in their reasoning when they say that they are opposed to violence. To an extent, I think that this is commendable, albeit naive. That's why I wish these people would not immediately be met with posts saying "disgusting" or "we don't need your help. Fuck off."

To say that this board leans liberal would be an understatement. You may argue that there is no point in arguing with actual pure-bred racists, but I'd hope that with some level-headed discourse, the average Neogaf poster can yet be saved.

 

[a.wd]

So much whataboutisms.

Here is an idea, if someone insults your family and threatens them how would you respond?

Would you be passive and say "please dont kill my family"?

What about if there was a group of people that believe that your family being dead will make our lives better.

How should you respond to that threat on yours and your families life?

You should never be afraid to defend yourself against a large force who are threatening yours and your families life, you should defend them always.

And fuck anyone who says "antifa" is just as bad, god what a world we live in.

How racist is the western world? Putin won.

 

[Earthpainting]

I'm all for moral grandstanding, but that's coming from my safe bubble of a European country with censorship and hate speech laws. I can easily say violence against group-X is wrong, because the rules of engagement put people who preach hate in jail or at the very least fine them heavily. I can also rely on my law enforcement and judicial system to not uphold institutionalised bigotry. When all of these protections cannot be trusted or are absent, that would certainly change my outlook on this whole situation. It's hard to fault people for reacting this way when keeping all of this in mind.

Trump was far from the catalyst for these issues, but he certainly contributed more than his share of drops that made this bucket spill off. Big changes need to be made, and I hope that white supremacists marching in the streets is finally the wake-up call people needed to demand these changes.