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[SmokyDave]

Traditions rock, man. I didn't used to think so, but the older I get the more I bathe in the received wisdom of those around longer than me.

I think the actual problem is that people need to chill when someone does something differently.

Agreed. That also extends to people choosing to follow non-harmful traditions.

 

[LosDaddie]

Depends on the tradition. I quite enjoy the family traditions the wife &a I are creating for our family

 

[Kenshin001]

Christmas is a tradition. So are birthdays.

I live in Japan and love all the traditional stuff they have, it's a large part of what defines the culture. Taking my daughter dressed in a kimono to the shrine for shichigosan was awesome. They are all pretty harmless and fun.

 

[GK86]

Bring back the old American family values and traditions.

 

[Joey Fox]

No, tradition preserves our cultures. Are you saying there is no value in having unique culture?

Some cultures are fucked up. I'd rather have no culture than the current state. But it would be impossible.

 

[Stallion Dan]

No more birthday or christmas presents for anyone then?


I'm guessing OP is young.

 

[Manoko]

Circumcision thread?

Should be.
Bodily integrity is an important right, that should be universal, no matter the gender.

 

[oti]

Just pick the good traditions like smashing red eggs at Eastern and don't follow the bad traditions like Butterkuchen. Yeah, there, I said it Butterkuchen defenders.

 

[Zaptruder]

Morals and ethics cannot be proven anyway.

Faith based morals and ethics can't be proven, because they lie on a foundation of nothing.

Define moral purpose and moral actions flow forth from it naturally and logically, with recourse to evidence.

(i.e. are the things you do, doing what you intend for them to do?)

 

[Ikael]

Ah, ye old good adanism. The belief that every single tradition and lonstanding human behaviour is only being perpetuated by society due to the sheer power of social convention and forced coercion, rather than due to necessity or, good forbid, common sense.

If only people would be as unique as me, the world would be such a different, better place... said every single teenager ever.

That being said, of course there's a huge dose of cultural inertia going (aka "useless and harmful traditions") but people really ought to understand where traditions come from rather than dump them all into the intellectually lazy "people are teh sheeple".

 

[Edsmells12345]

Read this thread just as The Daily Show's Month of Zen was talking about 'tradition' being a ridiculous argument to block gay marriage.

Nice.

 

[MrHoot]

One of the biggest impedement I can think of is restrictions on what kind of buildings you can construct (like vertical limits) in cities because they don't want to ruin the traditional aesthetic image of the city. Major housing problems ensue. Seems to be a problem across several European cities.

ew no.

I get what you mean, but fuck, some city skylines, especially where i live, have been ruined because shitty architects have been building these new tasteless huge building near the old city part (especially because most swiss modern architects are shit who only have squares in mind).

Preserving architectural integrity, at least in the old cities, is not only tradition for me. It's preserving culture, art and history. Europe in particular has loads of cities with old architecture who pertain to the middle-age. I think it's important to preserve the integrity of such things.

 

[NekoFever]

I don't have a problem with tradition as a concept, but if your only reason for doing some stupid thing is that it's traditional, you have no reason to do it.

Or people doing things that are actively harmful or protesting moves to end them because they're traditional. Again, if tradition is the only argument to keep doing this thing, there is no reason to do it. It's not an end unto itself.

There's also the weird urge that some people have to create traditions, like we did something on Christmas last year so we have to do it again now because it's tradition, or doing something with the intention of founding a new tradition. It doesn't work like that. It's an organic thing that happens over many years and generations.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

The problem isn't traditions themselves. It's people's unwillingness to reexamine them that's the problem. Some traditions just need to die and that's okay.

This is where I've settled over the years. My family and I definitely have traditions. I have my own little rituals. But none of those things get to trump logic and if at some point those traditions are harmful or make no sense, I will stop doing them.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Tradition is the worst, as someone who's had to deal with fallout from like hazing scandals and all that kind of stuff. One of my biggest personal red flags is when you ask someone/a group of people why they do something and the response is "it's a tradition".

Read this thread just as The Daily Show's Month of Zen was talking about 'tradition' being a ridiculous argument to block gay marriage.

Nice.

In the context of stuff like this, of course. I don't get concerned when someone tells me they go to Bill's Pancake House at the beach each year because it's a tradition

 

[TheGreatDirector]

Our age is retrospective OP.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Some cultures are fucked up. I'd rather have no culture than the current state. But it would be impossible.

Yes the world isn't perfect but there is tons of culture worth preserving.

 

[acheron_xl]

I'm not really that hot on traditions, family, marriage, and other things like that either. It all seems so pointlessly arbitrary.

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

Hating on traditions is a GAF tradition.

 

[dapperbandit]

I find this brand of post-modern cynicism exhausting. The need to dissect and evaluate absolutely everything we do that might seem questionable just seems pathological to me. So much of what we do is irrational in nature that trying to strip these things down and apply logic to them is just pointless.

I mean, the "bless you" when someone sneezes thing; I say it, everyone I know says it. This does not fill me with mind-crushing cognitive dissonance as an agnostic. If you somehow manage to offend yourself and your sensibilities as an atheist when the words "bless you" come out of your mouth, or take offence when someone oppressively says "bless you" when you sneeze then you need to get over yourself.

This anti-traditionalist thing sometimes strikes me as vindictive, a way of challenging opponents on the other side of the political spectrum, as by definition conservatives place greater value in tradition. I say vindictive because it strikes me that often there is quite literally nothing to be gained by removing certain traditions but victory over your opposition. To me mind this applies to the republican movement in the UK. They paper over their argument with suspect claims about the cost of the royal family but the reality is they just don't like them and what they represent.

 

[JB1981]

All conventions are boundaries /cloud atlas

 

[darkazcura]

Some traditions are good. Some are bad. Like anything else.

 

[entremet]

You do know that circumcision is a tradition?

*Open cans of worms*

I personally like family traditions.

I find this brand of post-modern cynicism exhausting. The need to dissect and evaluate absolutely everything we do that might seem questionable just seems pathological to me. So much of what we do is irrational in nature that trying to strip these things down and apply logic to them is just pointless.

I mean, the "bless you" when someone sneezes thing; I say it, everyone I know says it. This does not fill me with mind-crushing cognitive dissonance as an agnostic. If you somehow manage to offend yourself and your sensibilities as an atheist when the words "bless you" come out of your mouth, or take offence when someone oppressively says "bless you" when you sneeze then you need to get over yourself.

This anti-traditionalist thing sometimes strikes me as vindictive, a way of challenging opponents on the other side of the political spectrum, as by definition conservatives place greater value in tradition. I say vindictive because it strikes me that often there is quite literally nothing to be gained by removing certain traditions but victory over your opposition. To me mind this applies to the republican movement in the UK. They paper over their argument with suspect claims about the cost of the royal family but the reality is they just don't like them and what they represent.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Beelzebufo]

I find this brand of post-modern cynicism exhausting. The need to dissect and evaluate absolutely everything we do that might seem questionable just seems pathological to me. So much of what we do is irrational in nature that trying to strip these things down and apply logic to them is just pointless.

I mean, the "bless you" when someone sneezes thing; I say it, everyone I know says it. This does not fill me with mind-crushing cognitive dissonance as an agnostic. If you somehow manage to offend yourself and your sensibilities as an atheist when the words "bless you" come out of your mouth, or take offence when someone oppressively says "bless you" when you sneeze then you need to get over yourself.

This anti-traditionalist thing sometimes strikes me as vindictive, a way of challenging opponents on the other side of the political spectrum, as by definition conservatives place greater value in tradition. I say vindictive because it strikes me that often there is quite literally nothing to be gained by removing certain traditions but victory over your opposition. To me mind this applies to the republican movement in the UK. They paper over their argument with suspect claims about the cost of the royal family but the reality is they just don't like them and what they represent.

Nah, I think this is really dismissive. I wouldn't take someone taking offense to "Bless you" seriously, but someone saying "gay people shouldn't be able to marry because they haven't been able to before" is allowing a terrible thing to happen for a nonexistent reason.

It's also worth examining because things can be legitimately harmful to others that seem innocent to you because well, you haven't been negatively affected by it and it seems normal.

"My family always plays board games Thursday night" isn't what this topic is about, it's about "why should we have to take down the Confederate Flag? It's been there for years!" It's about "who cares if someone's offended by the racist song that my frat sings? They sang it when I was pledging and I didn't mind!" It's about "we shouldn't do this thing that will help the community, because we've been doing something different for hundreds of years". Those are the stupid and harmful traditions.

 

[quickwhips]

Fuck cultures and Traditions. I just do what I want with my family. Like December 25 doesn't need god or santa clause and doesn't even need to be called christmas. Gifts for the kids and awesome food and its a fun holiday without all the nonsense. Hell it doesn't even need gifts unless your a little kid.

 

[NEOPARADIGM]

Overvalued by who? Your parents? Random strawmen in your head? I think for the most part you're free to follow or not follow just about any tradition you want.

You cannot remove traditions from human culture.

This too.

 

[Wellscha]

 

[Beelzebufo]

Overvalued by who? Your parents? Random strawmen in your head? I think for the most part you're free to follow or not follow just about any tradition you want.

This too.

"Tradition" is a very valued thing in families, religion, cultural identity, sports, organizations, pretty much everything. And it can very easily be seen as a valid excuse despite having no substance or value. I don't know how you haven't seen this before. "Don't fix what ain't broke"? "That's the way we've always done it"? No?

For a recent example, the Marlin's team owners were able to get away with pretending to be broke because when asked for his financial records, he refused on the grounds that traditionally that kind of information is not given in MLB.

 

[Condom]

I find this brand of post-modern cynicism exhausting. The need to dissect and evaluate absolutely everything we do that might seem questionable just seems pathological to me. So much of what we do is irrational in nature that trying to strip these things down and apply logic to them is just pointless.

I mean, the "bless you" when someone sneezes thing; I say it, everyone I know says it. This does not fill me with mind-crushing cognitive dissonance as an agnostic. If you somehow manage to offend yourself and your sensibilities as an atheist when the words "bless you" come out of your mouth, or take offence when someone oppressively says "bless you" when you sneeze then you need to get over yourself.

This anti-traditionalist thing sometimes strikes me as vindictive, a way of challenging opponents on the other side of the political spectrum, as by definition conservatives place greater value in tradition. I say vindictive because it strikes me that often there is quite literally nothing to be gained by removing certain traditions but victory over your opposition. To me mind this applies to the republican movement in the UK. They paper over their argument with suspect claims about the cost of the royal family but the reality is they just don't like them and what they represent.

Everything is politics in the end. When people cite 'tradition' as a reason to keep the royals then that is politics too. I don't like royals because I like to think people should be valued equally and fairly. Having royals is having a consistent class-system in your nation that no economic or social policy can overcome.

So yeah fuck tradition when it's hurting the nation on a fundamental level.

 

[entremet]

Here a reason why traditions can be really good.

For example, the US being a nation of immigrants didn't have much food traditions like other cultures.

This allowed big business to dictate our food traditions--convenience foods over cooking, prevalence of fast foods, etc.

Other countries didn't budge as fast since their food traditions kept them relatively slim. Lack of snacking in French culture and eating to 80 percent full in Japanese culture.

Sure cultural imperialism is catching on those countries, but obesity is still a bigger problem in the US since we never had a concrete food tradition, or established principles on how we eat like other cultured did for hundreds of years.

Our food traditions were created by marketers and advertisers and we're seeing the ill effects of that.

To poo poo on all traditions is super silly.

 

[dinazimmerman]

I want to agree with you as I like the vision of breaking free from tradition and engaging in social experimentation on a large scale, but the reality is that experimentation is dangerous. Just look at the great Soviet experiment and how that turned out. Gradual change is probably the optimal choice for any society, and gradual change, although not exactly equivalent to respecting tradition just for the sake of it, is going to *feel* like respecting tradition just for the sake of it, especially for those who are really burning for radical instead of gradual change.

Also, I just realized that I was thinking of a much broader definition of tradition than what you were thinking of, but whatever.

 

[Wavebossa]

Erm.. how does human society and culture look without tradition?

HINT: It doesn't, the two cannot be separated.

Now, if you want to do away with certain traditions, that would be one thing. But they would be replaced by others, because that is how human beings operate.

Traditions are replaced by Traditions
-Going to Church on Sunday - Replaced with gardening and watching football
-Reading the Newspaper in the morning - Replaced with reading forums and blogs
-Eating lunch in the dining room - Replaced with eating dinner at your computer

OP you cannot remove tradition from humanity any easier than you can remove money (currency for goods and services) from human culture.

You biggest problem here is not tradition, but your lack of understanding on how human culture operates

 

[triplestation]

This is a funny thing to complain about. Its as if OP thinks tradition is literally keeping things from changing at all.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Everything is politics in the end. When people cite 'tradition' as a reason to keep the royals then that is politics too. I don't like royals because I like to think people should be valued equally and fairly. Having royals is having a consistent class-system in your nation that no economic or social policy can overcome.

So yeah fuck tradition when it's hurting the nation on a fundamental level.

I think if nothing else, if you're presenting an argument and your main justification is "it's the way we've always done it", you don't really have an argument at all.

This is a funny thing to complain about. Its as if OP thinks tradition is literally keeping things from changing at all.

This actually happens, I've seen it happen. Things eventually change yes, but they take much longer. More people get hurt in the mean time than would otherwise.

 

[dapperbandit]

Nah, I think this is really dismissive. I wouldn't take someone taking offense to "Bless you" seriously, but someone saying "gay people shouldn't be able to marry because they haven't been able to before" is allowing a terrible thing to happen for a nonexistent reason.

It's also worth examining because things can be legitimately harmful to others that seem innocent to you because well, you haven't been negatively affected by it and it seems normal.

"My family always plays board games Thursday night" isn't what this topic is about, it's about "why should we have to take down the Confederate Flag? It's been there for years!" It's about "who cares if someone's offended by the racist song that my frat sings? They sang it when I was pledging and I didn't mind!" It's about "we shouldn't do this thing that will help the community, because we've been doing something different for hundreds of years". Those are the stupid and harmful traditions.

Don't get me wrong, there are traditions worth challenging. The fight for gay marriage is a good example.

But my post was a broad critique of a certain state of mind and philosophy I see very often here and other places.

 

[Wavebossa]

I think if nothing else, if you're presenting an argument and your main justification is "it's the way we've always done it", you don't really have an argument at all.

But that's not so much a problem with tradition, but a problem with someone's lack of understand of the exact tradition.

If a young Islamic boy doesn't know why his family fasts for Ramadan and gives the answer, "This is what we've always done." Does that mean that Ramadan is the problem here? Or is that the boy doesn't know what that tradition means and why it is important to his family?

EDIT: I agree that he doesn't have an argument though, as he should learn why he does things. I just feel that this is not the fault of the tradition but rather the individual who chooses to be ignorant of the meaning behind his actions.

 

[Beelzebufo]

But that's not so much a problem with tradition, but a problem with someone's lack of understand of the exact tradition.

If a young Islamic boy doesn't know why his family fasts for Ramadan and gives the answer, "This is what we've always done." Does that mean that Ramadan is the problem here? Or is that the boy doesn't know what that tradition means and why it is important to his family?

If the boy's family forced the boy to fast at Ramadan for that reason, it's because that family puts an unhealthy amount of emphasis on the importance of tradition.

 

[Wavebossa]

If the boy's family forced the boy to fast at Ramadan for that reason, it's because that family puts an unhealthy amount of emphasis on the importance of tradition.

....

Or... maybe its because of their own personal spiritual beliefs??

If your parents forced you to go to school when you were younger, would you say that they have an unhealthy emphasis on the importance of traditional education? Or maybe they actually believe that elementary school is an effective way to prepare for later challenges through empirical data and statistics?

Its easy to make your argument when you assume tradition is the sole motive for everything. But honestly... that's rarely the case

 

[boiled goose]

Appeal to tradition is a logical fallacy.

 

[Beelzebufo]

....

Or... maybe its because of their own personal spiritual beliefs??

If your parents forced you to go to school when you were younger, would you say that they have an unhealthy emphasis on the importance of traditional education? Or maybe they actually believe that elementary school is an effective way to prepare for later challenges through empirical data and statistics?

Its easy to make your argument when you assume tradition is the sole motive for everything. But honestly... that's rarely the case

What if the family was no longer talking to their son (now a young adult) because he doesn't observe Ramadan? School obviously has tons of benefits other than for the sake of religion, which I think makes it much more sensible. There are also talks about constantly reforming the education system to make sure it's providing all of the benefits.

And I really disagree. A lot of things are done simply because those are the way things are done.

 

[Josh7289]

I absolutely agree. Every custom or traditional should be evaluated on its own merits. If it doesn't hold up or you can't justify it for yourself personally, drop it.

 

[Wavebossa]

What if the family was no longer talking to their son (now a young adult) because he doesn't observe Ramadan? School obviously has tons of benefits other than for the sake of religion, which I think makes it much more sensible. There are also talks about constantly reforming the education system to make sure it's providing all of the benefits.

And I really disagree. A lot of things are done simply because those are the way things are done.

How many things do you do solely because that's how they are done and you can see no outside benefit from them?

 

[Beelzebufo]

How many things do you do solely because that's how they are done and you can see no outside benefit from them?

I don't haha, but I've definitely seen people who do. You can come up with smaller justifications after the fact, but tradition gives things a lot of inertia.

 

[Wavebossa]

I don't haha, but I've definitely seen people who do. You can come up with smaller justifications after the fact, but tradition gives things a lot of inertia.

Hmm. I agree that it gives inertia, but I don't know.. I feel like when most people talk about this, they are very few real life examples that they can give.

Like you, I feel that there is nothing I do solely for tradition's sake, and there is no one I know who does things solely for tradition's sake.

So I don't know these people who do things solely because they used to do said thing.

 

[MDSVeritas]

Traditions can be good or bad. They are the building blocks of any culture, and while a lot of those building blocks can be very negative, like oppression of certain groups or enforcing certain questionable actions, traditions are also what forge some of the most interesting elements of the world.

I quite enjoy Christmas, which, in my family, and many others, is basically a tradition of kindness and interpersonal love. I'm also a big fan of Japanese culture, which wouldn't exist without the traditions with which it is formed.

Do you like certain foods, perhaps Mediterranean, Chinese, or Mexican? Those are culinary traditions made manifest, and they add color to our world.

Traditions and human culture as a whole are intertwined. There are incredibly awful things done in the name of tradition, but there are also wonderful things.

From my perspective, the most constructive and positive ways to eliminate the negatives of traditions is to, somewhat as you suggest, examine them and choose which ones we follow and which ones we work to evolve; contrary to popular thought traditions are never stagnant.

 

[ChouGoku]

Yes doing things just because a bunch of people in the past said to do it is stupid, especially if it doesnt improve your life in any way

 

[umop_3pisdn]

There's a difference between rituals and ritualism. One follows only the letter of the law, and the other follows the 'spirit' of the law. If we know why the traditions exist and what purpose they serve, then they are useful; if we're only performing them to be 'correct' because doing so leaves us unassailable in some way, then they're useless. Socially we need ritual of some kind, especially when dealing with anything emotionally big or difficult. Funerals are one great example, all cultures have had some form of death rites to help with bereavement and separation. There are even a lot of contemporary ones (roadside memorials) that happen alongside the contemporary push to do away with 'empty tradition', so even while rationally we may think they don't serve a purpose, we contradict that at the same time with our actions and sentiments. When rituals have actual thought or meaning behind them they do serve an important social purpose.