Exactly, she was also a strung out drunk wreck by that time
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Transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox fights for $20,000 tonight
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Exactly, she was also a strung out drunk wreck by that time
Nope, and I bet most of the average skilled female fighters could take her. I saw some of her last fights and she was just facing bad opponents, that is why she looked so dominant.
I find this "safety" argument to be pretty stupid. It is a contact sport after all. I am pretty sure Cyborg hits as strong as Fox. Should Cyborg be banned from MMA? If another woman hits as strong as Fox, should her also be banned?
So because the sport involves hitting people in the face than safety shouldn't be a concern? What? Also Cryborg has been regularly linked to substance abuse, so yes in those circumstances she should absolutely be banned from competing in tournaments. It's an unfair advantage even if opponents are higher skilled or genetically superior.
Also it's not just about being strong, it's the physical size of your hands, broad shoulders, and the stronger jaw. As well as other facets that need more research: bone densities, hormone levels, reaction time, etc. These distinct advantages go beyond someone being genetically superior, and then what happens when someone also happens to be a "genetic beast" while also being a transwoman competing with ciswomen? Again, I'd have less of an issue with a transwoman competing with ciswomen in a sport like tennis, but when the sport in question involves beating the fuck out of one another than it becomes a bigger issue and shouldn't be allowed.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The problem isn't the incorrect usage as much as it's the stubbornness and insults that come when there is an attempt at correction.EmiPrime, you do realize the real world is much less politically correct, and that most Americans wouldn't even know which pronoun to use or care enough to think about the repercussions of their pronoun usage.
NeoGAF: where it's okay to call trans women men as long as you do it politely (and maybe edit in correct pronouns to cover your ass) and your fellow posters will defend you as having no "ill intent" and that the offended parties are "hurting their cause".
.
Please. Look at the frequency of bans in literally any thread here that touches on trans issues. Instead you'd prefer to impulse ban for any breach even when they're possibly mistakes of ignorance and not malice, and as such, are potential teaching moments? Repeating something doesn't make it true, nor does its repetition means its false. Intent truly does make a difference. And as one set of Bingo cards include a square for "hurting the cause" claims, another includes one for unwarranted accusation of transphobia. "Bingo" games are for buffoons. Because just as transphobia and the ability to falsely accuse someone of it both exist, it is indeed possible to hurt ones cause and to be told that one is doing so despite that not being the case. Moderation is seemingly carried out on an appropriate case-by-case basis rather than conforming to the thoughtless script you apparently advocate, and that I do believe hurts the cause.
Does not being able to compete in professional sport really limit your ability to feel female?
When it comes to sport it should be entirely black and white. Born a male - you can only compete as a male. A MtF transgender might or might not have an unfair advantage, it will be really hard figure this out entirely.
Of course, if the other competant is up for it, it is fair game, but I'll never view her as a female champion.
When it comes to sport it should be entirely black and white. Born a male - you can only compete as a male. A MtF transgender might or might not have an unfair advantage, it will be really hard figure this out entirely.
Of course, if the other competant is up for it, it is fair game, but I'll never view her as a female champion.
Jest Chillin
Member
To add another element to the discussion, even the stance of "If the other competitor is ok with it, then it should be fine" is a difficult stance to make a rule because if Fox were to win a championship then it would put pressure on every other woman in the division to fight her or leave the promotion in order to continue advancing their career.
Steve o 3000
Banned
so...who won the fight?
My instinctive rule of thumb would be to go by the sex they went through puberty as. If they were able to get HRT in place and avoid/delay the "wrong" adolescence, I don't see an issue with using their reassigned gender.Does not being able to compete in professional sport really limit your ability to feel female?
When it comes to sport it should be entirely black and white. Born a male - you can only compete as a male. A MtF transgender might or might not have an unfair advantage, it will be really hard figure this out entirely.
Of course, if the other competant is up for it, it is fair game, but I'll never view her as a female champion.
What if somebody begins male puberty but doesn't finish it before they begin HRT?My instinctive rule of thumb would be to go by the sex they went through puberty as. If they were able to get HRT in place and avoid/delay the "wrong" adolescence, I don't see an issue with using their reassigned gender.
so many variables
Please. Look at the frequency of bans in literally any thread here that touches on trans issues. Instead you'd prefer to impulse ban for any breach even when they're possibly mistakes of ignorance and not malice, and as such, are potential teaching moments?
I am very capable of distinguishing the two and giving the benefit of the doubt. If someone continues to infer that trans women are men and should be competing with "other men" having been asked to not do that then it's obvious they seek only to antagonise and are not out to learn anything and that they don't care to listen to trans people. Most people now know not to throw around slurs like "tranny" but instead will coach their language such that it seems polite while essentially saying the same thing. You have no idea how hurtful and exhausting it is to have to read comments about trans women being men and to have you say we should take it on the chin and treat it as a teaching opportunity is really galling.
Trans people are not your personal gender studies tutors, obliged to patiently correct any mistakes while being careful to keep a calm tone despite all the insults and the cis-sexist critique of trans bodies and lives. With a receptive audience I would love to educate but this topic clearly isn't that venue.
You are a straight white man who will never know how it feels to have your life and identity picked apart and delegitimised everywhere. Just like men don't get to say something isn't sexist cis people don't get to say something isn't transphobic.
Fornaximus
Member
Just like men don't get to say something isn't sexist cis people don't get to say something isn't transphobic.
I think that's the craziest thing anybody has said in this thread so far.
You see the same thing argued regarding pretty much any minority victimhood issue. "Offense" is a personal reaction. being a member of a minority doesn't inherently validate the feeling.I think that's the craziest thing anybody has said in this thread so far.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
I am very capable of distinguishing the two and giving the benefit of the doubt. If someone continues to infer that trans women are men and should be competing with "other men" having been asked to not do that then it's obvious they seek only to antagonise and are not out to learn anything and that they don't care to listen to trans people. Most people now know not to throw around slurs like "tranny" but instead will coach their language such that it seems polite while essentially saying the same thing. You have no idea how hurtful and exhausting it is to have to read comments about trans women being men and to have you say we should take it on the chin and treat it as a teaching opportunity is really galling.
Trans people are not your personal gender studies tutors, obliged to patiently correct any mistakes while being careful to keep a calm tone despite all the insults and the cis-sexist critique of trans bodies and lives. With a receptive audience I would love to educate but this topic clearly isn't that venue.
You are a straight white man who will never know how it feels to have your life and identity picked apart and delegitimised everywhere. Just like men don't get to say something isn't sexist cis people don't get to say something isn't transphobic.
How do you know this for a fact? Just by anyone responding to you, all it does is feed your persecution complex, in which you make assumptions and pass it off as fact and raises the question that your argument is emotional rather than logical.
How do you know this for a fact? Just by anyone responding to you, all it does is feed your persecution complex, in which you make assumptions and pass it off as fact and raises the question that your argument is rather emotional than logical.
FartOfWar is Shawn Elliot's GAF account.
RockTurtle
Member
You are a straight white man who will never know how it feels to have your life and identity picked apart and delegitimised everywhere. Just like men don't get to say something isn't sexist cis people don't get to say something isn't transphobic.
not only is this post condescending and stereotyping, but it's also racist and sexist. but it's ok, because you are only insulting a white man.
I'll have to leave it at that, last time i pointed out that someone calling someone a white cis gendered male in a negative tone to dismiss their viewpoints is itself wrong and insulting, i got a nice 30 day vacation from GAF.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You're ignoring the point. There's nothing racist or sexist about saying that a straight white man would not personally understand what it's like to be someone else.not only is this post condescending and stereotyping, but it's also racist and sexist. but it's ok, because you are only insulting a white man.
I'll have to leave it at that, last time i pointed out that someone calling someone a white cis gendered male in a negative tone to dismiss their viewpoints is itself wrong and insulting, i got a nice 30 day vacation from GAF.
not only is this post condescending and stereotyping, but it's also racist and sexist. but it's ok, because you are only insulting a white man.
I'll have to leave it at that, last time i pointed out that someone calling someone a white cis gendered male in a negative tone to dismiss their viewpoints is itself wrong and insulting, i got a nice 30 day vacation from GAF.
So instead you're going to drive-by shit post and call me a racist and a sexist?
That's idiotic. Or do I also need to be an idiot before I can say that?Just like men don't get to say something isn't sexist cis people don't get to say something isn't transphobic.
Jeff Albertson
Member
To be fair though, where do you live? We're pretty open on GAF, but there's a lot of places or actually probably a scant few places outside of GAF where Trans people can be open. I imagine it might be something where if you are trans in the real world and have to deal with transphobia it can manifest itself in every conversation because you are probably so used to people being so anti-trans and all that. Yeah, I think sometimes those in the trans community on GAF can be a little defensive, but we should probably put ourselves in their shoes for a little. GAF is probably the only respite they get from the real world, at least in respect to where they live in some places.
You absolutely have a point
Gaf doesn't mirror the real world conversations I hear people having not even close.
I'm from the north of England, if you said some of the things that are discussed here in a random pub you'd probably be laughed out of the place, I remember distinctly thinking this when discussing about kids being brought up gender neutral I couldn't even imagine the reaction of the regular man on the street here.
It's sad but GAF is by far more accepting than the real world around here
RockTurtle
Member
So instead you're going to drive-by shit post and call me a racist and a sexist?
im not calling you a racist or sexist. but your comment can certainly be construed as such. You make assumptions and write in broad statements.
i'm just saying if the shoe was on the other foot, things wouldn't have been taken as lightly.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I'm pretty sure people would be like "yeah, true" if a black woman was like "you're not a black woman so you don't understand what it's like to be one."i'm just saying if the shoe was on the other foot, things wouldn't have been taken as lightly.
What point were you trying to make?
I am very capable of distinguishing the two and giving the benefit of the doubt. If someone continues to infer that trans women are men and should be competing with "other men" having been asked to not do that then it's obvious they seek only to antagonise and are not out to learn anything and that they don't care to listen to trans people. Most people now know not to throw around slurs like "tranny" but instead will coach their language such that it seems polite while essentially saying the same thing. You have no idea how hurtful and exhausting it is to have to read comments about trans women being men and to have you say we should take it on the chin and treat it as a teaching opportunity is really galling.
Trans people are not your personal gender studies tutors, obliged to patiently correct any mistakes while being careful to keep a calm tone despite all the insults and the cis-sexist critique of trans bodies and lives. With a receptive audience I would love to educate but this topic clearly isn't that venue.
You are a straight white man who will never know how it feels to have your life and identity picked apart and delegitimised everywhere. Just like men don't get to say something isn't sexist cis people don't get to say something isn't transphobic.
I said nothing about taking malicious comments on the chin. Your never specified which comments you were addressing, so I took you to mean any and everything in the thread that isn't worded as though the writer was a humanities major. Nor was I arguing that it's your duty to do the educating. But indiscriminately wielding the word transphobic as a cudgel that only trans people are capable of carrying can at times eliminate possibility for education. As I said, I don't know who you were braining with it at the time. They might well have been transphobic -- obviously a few here in the thread are. They might not have been, though. You didn't say; I don't know. I also don't agree that trans people need to be anyone's tutors. I do, however, think that threads like this are often ideal places for such instruction to occur. Acceptance isn't a lesson we learn in a single session; or something that instantaneously appears in people who have had little or no meaningful discussion on the topic let alone trans friends, family, or acquaintances. For many, it evolves via discussion and debate, through natural exposure to the topic. And that's happening here. I'd even argue that the variety of lesson available in threads such as this is potentially more meaningful for some people than those they'd see sitting in a dedicated college course. Note that you've also concluded that there isn't a single receptive audience member in this thread. That's self-defeating. Again, it isn't your duty to educate anyone, but then it isn't their duty to say only what you say in the way you say they should say it (provided they aren't intentionally being hurtful/hateful), then still suspect that, despite all that, someone could accuse them of insincerity and malicious "passing" (re: "Most people now know not to throw around slurs like "tranny" but instead will coach their language such that it seems polite while essentially saying the same thing"). Remember that you're the one now telling people that their identity itself undermines the validity of their arguments.
You absolutely have a point
Gaf doesn't mirror the real world conversations I hear people having not even close.
I'm from the north of England, if you said some of the things that are discussed here in a random pub you'd probably be laughed out of the place, I remember distinctly thinking this when discussing about kids being brought up gender neutral I couldn't even imagine the reaction of the regular man on the street here.
It's sad but GAF is by far more accepting than the real world around here
A lot of stupid things can be heard in a pub on a diverse range of subjects including gypsies, immigration, "the gays", England's world cup chances, muslims, women or anything else that some dickhead can end a statement with "it's political correctness gone mad".
Fortunately I think GAF aspires to be better.
RockTurtle
Member
I'm pretty sure people would be like "yeah, true" if a black woman was like "you're not a black woman so you don't understand what it's like to be one."
What point were you trying to make?
well sure i'll explain:
that statement already in itself picks apart and delegitimizes white men in their identity. i think that's the definition of irony, but english isn't my first language.You are a straight white man who will never know how it feels to have your life and identity picked apart and delegitimised everywhere
or maybe i'm just crazy i dunno, maybe other people can chime in? i'm open to be change my mind.
Are only minorities allowed to say if something is racist?I'm pretty sure people would be like "yeah, true" if a black woman was like "you're not a black woman so you don't understand what it's like to be one."
What point were you trying to make?
I'm a minority and I find your post to be racist. You don't get to disagree that your post is racist unless you happen to be a minority.
See how stupid that is?
Are only minorities allowed to say if something is racist?
I'm a minority and I find your post to be racist. You don't get to disagree that your post is racist unless you happen to be a minority.
See how stupid that is?
There is a consensus on gaf that only white people can be racist.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
What you wrote is stupid, but not for the reasons you hoped. (That has nothing to do with what's being discussed.)Are only minorities allowed to say if something is racist?
I'm a minority and I find your post to be racist. You don't get to disagree that your post is racist unless you happen to be a minority.
See how stupid that is?
For real, there is nothing wrong with saying a straight white man doesn't know what it's like to be someone else. Where are you guys getting racism and sexism from here? It's a basic example of personal experience.
I'm pretty sure people would be like "yeah, true" if a black woman was like "you're not a black woman so you don't understand what it's like to be one."
What point were you trying to make?
What about her other argument, though? The one that says non X is unable to observe X-ism or a lack of X-ism, and that can imply that any X that thinks he or she sees X-ism has indisputably observed X-ism (provided the disputants are not fellow Xes). That one is demonstrably incorrect.
Fornaximus
Member
I'm pretty sure people would be like "yeah, true" if a black woman was like "you're not a black woman so you don't understand what it's like to be one."
A proper parallel to EmiPrime's statement would be "You're white, so you can't tell anyone what is and isn't racist", which is equally absurd.
I don't know what kind of life Emi has lead, but clearly it has resulted in a very unhealthy victim complex. I hope he/she gets those issues sorted out because it seems like a very unpleasant way of living one's life.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Oh please. How is the latter any more "fair" than the former?Sports is all about fairness, and if you have an advantage by previously being a man then that's not fair. It's different in Serena Williams, Lebron James, Jon Jones', etc case where they have a God given advantage over others, but they were born that way.
I said nothing about taking malicious comments on the chin. Your never specified which comments you were addressing, so I took you to mean any and everything in the thread that isn't worded as though the writer was a humanities major. Nor was I arguing that it's your duty to do the educating. But indiscriminately wielding the word transphobic as a cudgel that only trans people are capable of carrying can at times eliminate possibility for education. As I said, I don't know who you were braining with it at the time. They might well have been transphobic -- obviously a few here in the thread are. They might not have been, though. You didn't say; I don't know. I also don't agree that trans people need to be anyone's tutors. I do, however, think that threads like this are often ideal places for such instruction to occur. Acceptance isn't a lesson we learn in a single session; or something that instantaneously appears in people who have had little or no meaningful discussion on the topic let alone trans friends, family, or acquaintances. For many, it evolves via discussion and debate, through natural exposure to the topic. And that's happening here. I'd even argue that the variety of lesson available in threads such as this is potentially more meaningful for some people than those they'd see sitting in a dedicated college course. Note that you've also concluded that there isn't a single receptive audience member in this thread. That's self-defeating. Again, it isn't your duty to educate anyone, but then it isn't their duty to say only what you say in the way you say they should say it (provided they aren't intentionally being hurtful/hateful), then still suspect that, despite all that, someone could accuse them of insincerity and malicious "passing" (re: "Most people now know not to throw around slurs like "tranny" but instead will coach their language such that it seems polite while essentially saying the same thing"). Remember that you're the one now telling people that their identity itself undermines the validity of their arguments.
I have tried to educate on certain points including chromosomes, the effect of estrogen on the body, that not all trans women have identical bodies and that it's not okay to call trans women men. Nobody wanted to address these points or ask for more information. It's not for want of trying.
Please read the thread. This is very obviously not a venue receptive to learning.
A proper parallel to EmiPrime's statement would be "You're white, so you can't tell anyone what is and isn't racist", which is equally absurd.
I don't know what kind of life Emi has lead, but clearly it has resulted in a very unhealthy victim complex. I hope he/she gets those issues sorted out because it seems like a very unpleasant way of living one's life.
Just like it's not appropriate for a man to tell a woman that something she got offended by isn't sexist it's not appropriate for cis people to tell trans people to grow a thicker skin and that whatever hurt them is not transphobic.
It's not hard to understand.
Also you don't know anything about me. You can shove your assumptions.
What you wrote is stupid, but not for the reasons you hoped. (That has nothing to do with what's being discussed.)
For real, there is nothing wrong with saying a straight white man doesn't know what it's like to be someone else. Where are you guys getting racism and sexism from here? It's a basic example of personal experience.
Could you take the time to explain to him how what he wrong is stupid? And explain the reasons and how it has nothing to do with what's being discussed?
A proper parallel to EmiPrime's statement would be "You're white, so you can't tell anyone what is and isn't racist", which is equally absurd.
I don't know what kind of life Emi has lead, but clearly it has resulted in a very unhealthy victim complex. I hope he/she gets those issues sorted out because it seems like a very unpleasant way of living one's life.
Dude, don't go there. That's simply more name calling and serves nothing.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Because no one ever said anything close to or about racism only being a thing that can be called out by minorities. I have no idea how you guys have gotten to this point.Could you take the time to explain to him how what he wrong is stupid? And explain the reasons and how it has nothing to do with what's being discussed?
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