Support NeoGAF

[Neoriceisgood]

Nah it's all our fault. Again. We're not doing enough.

Shame on you.

 

[Chatin]

Nah it's all our fault. Again. We're not doing enough.

You absorbed all the learnin' in the classroom, so there wasn't any left for the girls.

 

[kevm3]

Well, except for the parents who tell their daughters not to go into technical fields, the professors that refuse to teach women the way they teach their male students, the industry professionals who relentlessly sexually harass women, the management types who promote male employees over equally talented women, the message board troglodytes who post monstrous bullshit in response to any statements that women in the industry make, the government that refuses to mandate a sane maternity leave policy....

Your assessment of male teachers and bosses as irresponsible sexists and potential rapists is more than a little sexist in and of itself. Maybe we need to create articles on sexist depictions of males in power... Or maybe you have some sort of proof or statistics to back it up. Since it's all about equality, where's my paternity leave?

I'm sure parents are telling their daughters, "No you filthy whore, you better not go into computer science. It's psychology or sociology for you!" at a young age. When you go into book stores, guess who is most likely in the network/programming section. That's right, men. Or maybe there's some sexist ninja employee that I'm not seeing that is barring women from going there and picking up those books? Or are you saying females have an inability to think or act independently? They can't simply pick up a programming book and learn in their spare time? I highly doubt that. Some of the very best male programmers are self taught. Are you saying females can't do the same thing?

In other words, you agree with my post since I am ENCOURAGING women to get into programming and to write scripts if they want games catered to them. I actually also brought up the indie/kickstarter route, which would mean they are the boss over their own product and wouldn't have to deal with all of these supposed sexually deviant male bosses.

Guess what, men are men. They aren't female. They cannot read the minds of females and create female characters that accurately portray women any more than some white guy in the suburbs can accurately depict the life of a 23 year old everyday asian guy living in hong kong. At most, he can only present a caricature based upon what media he's been exposed to and his limited interactions with that specific culture.

 

[Devolution]

You absorbed all the learnin' in the classroom, so there wasn't any left for the girls.

I am a woman.

Your assessment of male teachers and bosses as irresponsible sexists and potential rapists is more than a little sexist in and of itself. Maybe we need to create articles on sexist depictions of males in power... Or maybe you have some sort of proof or statistics to back it up. Since it's all about equality, where's my paternity leave?

I'm sure parents are telling their daughters, "No you filthy whore, you better not go into computer science. It's psychology or sociology for you!" at a young age. When you go into book stores, guess who is most likely in the network/programming section. That's right, men. Or maybe there's some sexist ninja employee that I'm not seeing that is barring women from going there and picking up those books? Or are you saying females have an inability to think or act independently? They can't simply pick up a programming book and learn in their spare time? I highly doubt that. Some of the very best male programmers are self taught. Are you saying females can't do the same thing?

In other words, you agree with my post since I am ENCOURAGING women to get into programming and to write scripts if they want games catered to them. I actually also brought up the indie/kickstarter route, which would mean they are the boss over their own product and wouldn't have to deal with all of these supposed sexually deviant male bosses.

Guess what, men are men. They aren't female. They cannot read the minds of females and create female characters that accurately portray women any more than some white guy in the suburbs can accurately depict the life of a 23 year old everyday asian guy living in hong kong. At most, he can only present a caricature based upon what media he's been exposed to and his limited interactions with that specific culture.

You really don't have much to say other than hyperbolic nonsense. Most of the stuff Charle described happens but in a much more subtle, coercive and nuanced manner. Plenty of writers have written women as people without the need to live out our lives.

Telling women they have to take a more active role in the portrayals of themselves by men is laughable. The answer isn't more women, the answer is getting the current stock of story tellers who are abundantly male to recognize us as characters with motivations just like they recognize male protagonists as the same.

 

[Chatin]

I am a woman.

My bad.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

The industry gave a woman that could kick butt in Lara Croft, but her breasts were too big and she was 'too sexy.'

You do realize that they made her breasts that big for that specific reason, right? They knew exactly what they were doing. They knew they were making a sex symbol.

I mean, come on. You didn't just say "just because a bunch of male artists gave her huge boobs doesn't mean there was sex appeal involved"...

They reduced her breast size and made her more normal... she is a bit more vulnerable in this new game, but now all of a sudden she's too weak and that's sexist too.

Who is saying that? Who besides the 12-year olds that want big breasted Lara back?

Your entire argument is "men gonna be men".

 

[Haliela]

I was impressed with the way Gears of War 3 handled Anya and Sam. I was surprised Epic even did it let alone without making them feel weak and unimportant.

 

[Kinyou]

I know it's not supposed to be a real test and just to get you think; but the "they have to talk about something else than a man" rule of the Bechdel test is just so... imprecise, and that bugs me.

 

[GrandHarrier]

I kind of want to know what file sharing she was doing.

 

[kevm3]

I am a woman.




You really don't have much to say other than hyperbolic nonsense. Most of the stuff Charle described happens but in a much more subtle, coercive and nuanced manner. Plenty of writers have written women as people without the need to live out our lives.

Telling women they have to take a more active role in the portrayals of themselves by men is laughable. The answer isn't more women, the answer is getting the current stock of story tellers who are abundantly male to recognize us as characters with motivations just like they recognize male protagonists as the same.

Hmm videogames, a male dominated market filled with males providing the creative content that caters to their audience? Is it really any surprise why we have the portrayals we do? ANd I fail to see what's so intricate and nuanced about male depictions in games. I can easily cry foul about the common depiction of males as hypermuscular, ultra violent murderers... Kratos, Marcus Fenix, Sam Fisher etc.

There are tons of games that allow you to choose your gender or gender neutral games such as Journey, so I really fail to see where all of this outrage is coming from. The hitman nuns? Oh you mean in a game where you play as an emotionless, ultra violent male that murders? What game just has these dastardly depictions of women?

 

[kevm3]

You do realize that they made her breasts that big for that specific reason, right? They knew exactly what they were doing. They knew they were making a sex symbol.

I mean, come on. You didn't just say "just because a bunch of male artists gave her huge boobs doesn't mean there was sex appeal involved"...



Who is saying that? Who besides the 12-year olds that want big breasted Lara back?

Your entire argument is "men gonna be men".

More like my argument is women have the ability to actively engage in the creative process to create the depictions of women they deem suitable.

 

[Zoramon089]

I do have a question for people in this thread, mainly about women body "types" in game. Let's take a look at something like Street Fighter for instance. As a series I think it's characters have the largest variety of body types and I think it's a really good example. Anyway, you look at the males and they come in all manner of shapes. Tall, short, fat, skinny, stocky, muscular, etc. And the women too come in a variety of sizes but not nearly as many. They're most of average/bulky muscular (Chun Li, R.Mika), lean muscular (Elena, Cammy) or small (Sakura, Matoko).

Anyway, it's interesting how this ends up being the case. Because in most game series any women with a build or outfit that isn't average is seen as sexualized but I've seen people actually complain that there isn't the variance in women as there is in male characters. I'm not sure if this comes from a conscious decision on the devs part or if it just happened that way. But the question is why is it that anything but average attractiveness and body features is seen as sexualized? People always ask for variety for varieties sake but then complain when that occurs.

Ignoring the actual non-physical aspects of the character and focusing solely on the design, can someone answer this? Yes I know. Games are designed by men and largely for men and as such characters are designed according to what's seen as "appealing" to men, male and female designs included. However, while games that include a large variety of males, some that clearly aren't ideal or appealing appearances exist, if the same games included the same variety in female designs you'd get complaints on any that were "above average" in certain aspects. For instance, can anyone think of a big breasted female game character that isn't sexualized? Or are big breasts inherently sexual to the point they can't be used without being criticized?

Let me pose another question, also about Street Fighter. Is Chun Li sexualized? I'm sure the answer would almost overwhelmingly be yes. Next question: how can her design be made to be less sexual? Again, I'm sure the answer would primarily involve toning down the exaggerated aspects of her design (boobs, thighs, etc). And there in lies a question I've been asking earlier in this post. Everything but average and conservative is seen as sexualized.

 

[Nert]

I know it's not supposed to be a real test and just to get you think; but the "they have to talk about something else than a man" rule of the Bechdel test is just so... imprecise, and that bugs me.

I don't see how it's imprecise at all. There are countless things to base a conversation around other than some dude or what he's doing, and it's pretty easy to tell if a conversation is based around a man that's not there or not.

For Simpsons fans, think about The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show, when Homer states

Two, whenever Poochie's not onscreen, all the other characters should be asking "Where's Poochie?"

as a part of his line of suggestions for how to base the show entirely around Poochie.

Loosely translating that to fit with the themes of the Bechdel Test: "whenever a man's not onscreen, all of the other characters should be asking: 'Where are the men? What are they up to?'"

 

[Devolution]

Hmm videogames, a male dominated market filled with males providing the creative content that caters to their audience? Is it really any surprise why we have the portrayals we do? ANd I fail to see what's so intricate and nuanced about male depictions in games. I can easily cry foul about the common depiction of males as hypermuscular, ultra violent murderers... Kratos, Marcus Fenix, Sam Fisher etc.

How many times must it be pointed out that you still have depictions of male characters that don't fall into these tropes and that male power fantasies are not as intrinsincally bad as they are something to aspire to rather than a flawed 1 dimensional woman who is more than likely there just to serve the function as a walking pair of tits.

Male dominated industry is a full fledged cop out. One doesn't have to live out the life of a minority or woman to write them as people.

And I've never said that depictions of males in this industry is at all benevolent or good, so you can drop that straw man too.

There are tons of games that allow you to choose your gender or gender neutral games such as Journey, so I really fail to see where all of this outrage is coming from. The hitman nuns? Oh you mean in a game where you play as an emotionless, ultra violent male that murders? What game just has these dastardly depictions of women?

Oh by all means tell me to play games in which I can pick a gender and play how I choose. Never mind how the costumes/armor is designed. Or how the NPCs walk, talk, act and look. Should I pick the sorceress with her tits out? Or maybe the rogue with her mid-drift showing. Oh I know I'll pick the warrior who's wearing an armored thong.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

More like my argument is women have the ability to actively engage in the creative process to create the depictions of women they deem suitable.

I don't think you understand the difference between women being able to do something and women being in the position to do something.

It's awful nice to be able to hypothesize that, at any point in a game's creation, female employees can just waltz on in and say "change this".

The second thing you don't seem to be understanding is that you don't need to be a bleeding heart feminazi to be posting this stuff.

 

[kevm3]

What male characters are so marvelously written? Batman is a muscular, quiet super hero. Kratos is a hypermuscular, psycho murderer. The guy from Braid is a mute. Killzone 2 and 3 are filled with the brodude dialogue. Same with Gears. Niko from GTA is a criminally minded murderer. CJ from San Andreas is a 90s gangsta stereotype. I can go on and on and on. Where are all of these nuanced, extremely witty male characters? Males are stereotyped just as much as females in games.

 

[stupei]

Well, except for the parents who tell their daughters not to go into technical fields, the professors that refuse to teach women the way they teach their male students, the industry professionals who relentlessly sexually harass women, the management types who promote male employees over equally talented women, the message board troglodytes who post monstrous bullshit in response to any statements that women in the industry make, the government that refuses to mandate a sane maternity leave policy....

Totally anecdotal I know, but I was in the classroom when a professor at one of the top two film schools in the country said: "A female DP [cinematographer] is a genetic impossibility." He then went on to discuss how camera work is largely based in an understanding of science and math while also requiring the physical capacity to hold sort of heavy equipment for hours on end, so it's not remotely possible for women to do.

That was pleasant.

 

[Devolution]

What male characters are so marvelously written? Batman is a muscular, quiet super hero. Kratos is a hypermuscular, psycho murderer. The guy from Braid is a mute. Killzone 2 and 3 are filled with the brodude dialogue. Same with Gears. Niko from GTA is a criminally minded murderer. CJ from San Andreas is a 90s gangsta stereotype. I can go on and on and on. Where are all of these nuanced, extremely witty male characters? Males are stereotyped just as much as females in games.

Look up false equivalency and straw mans. Criticizing how women are portrayed in games is not equivalent to saying male characters are without unfair or damaging tropes.

 

[M3d10n]

Telling women they have to take a more active role in the portrayals of themselves by men is laughable. The answer isn't more women, the answer is getting the current stock of story tellers who are abundantly male to recognize us as characters with motivations just like they recognize male protagonists as the same.

If only it were that simple. I believe many of these designers/writes/whatnot actually don't have enough understanding of women to properly write one that would please everyone: they were raised in a misogynistic environment after all. It's like trying to change your shit *after* the food has been eaten. Pushing more diversity in development teams would produce more natural results.

Anectode time: we finally have some female team members where I work and their input had significant impact in our work after all these years of sausage fest.

 

[Zoramon089]

Can someone at least acknowledge that I posted something before?

 

[Devolution]

If only it were that simple. I believe many of these designers/writes/whatnot actually don't have enough understanding of women to properly write one that would please everyone: they were raised in a misogynistic environment after all. It's like trying to change your shit *after* the food has been eaten. Pushing more diversity in development teams would produce more natural results.

Anectode time: we finally have some female team members where I work and their input had significant impact in our work after all these years of sausage fest.

Diversity is good yes but getting men to also see women as people is the real answer since not every team or group of writers will have or listen to women on staff. Not to mention getting the community to warm up to depictions of women as people will be better accepted and welcomed with men also at the helm not just the assumption that women are the only ones who want this. If more men would also speak up about their desire to see female characters as something other than tropes or stereotypes than it would seem less like a "woman's" complaint no matter how justified.

 

[stupei]

If only it were that simple. I believe many of these designers/writes/whatnot actually don't have enough understanding of women to properly write one that would please everyone. Pushing more diversity in development teams would produce more natural results.

I quoted this in the thread about Tomb Raider, but I honestly think it's pretty relevant to the overall discussion of female representation in all media, so I'll post it here too.

I don't think it's terribly controversial to note that women, from a young age, are required to consider the reality of the opposite gender's consciousness in a way that men aren't. This isn't to say that women don't often misunderstand, mistreat, and stereotype men, both in literature and in life. But on a basic level, functioning in society requires that women register that men are fully conscious; it is not really possible for a woman to throw up her hands and write men off as eternally unknowable space aliens — and even if she says she has, she cannot really behave as though she has. Every element of her life — from reading books about boys and men to writing papers about the motivations of male characters to being attentive to her own safety to navigating most any institutional or professional or economic sphere — demands an ironclad familiarity with, and belief in, the idea that men really are fully human entities. And no matter how many men come to the same conclusions about women, the structure of society simply does not demand so strenuously that they do so. If you didn't really deep down believe that women were, in general, exactly as conscious as you, you could probably still get by in life. You could probably still get a book deal. You could probably still get elected to office.

This discrepancy plays out in fiction, where it fuels a literary cycle which is both a cause and a consequence of the broader issue. Girls, alongside the variety of other ways in which they're confronting the reality of male consciousness, read and write papers about Huck and then Holden and then Jake Barnes. In doing so, they learn that male minds, like female minds, are complicated and weird and worthy of attention. Adult female readers then will often voluntarily read books by and about both men and women, whereas male readers will overwhelmingly, though of course not exclusively, read books by and about men.

From a short opinion piece by recently published author Jennifer duBois. I think this also speaks to the reason why a lack of representation of interesting female characters across all media is a problem that negatively impacts both men and women.

Can someone at least acknowledge that I posted something before?

I don't play fighting games often enough to feel like I'm in a good position to offer any kind of informed critique on Chun-Li, honestly.

 

[PK Gaming]

This is it, seriously. They see any attack or criticism on the industry as an attack or criticism to them.

Gamers want gaming to be taken seriously but they will still bitch and moan about people wanting female characters to be taken seriously and appeal to both genders, about black main characters, and Uncharted 3 getting an 8. The gaming industry is the teen who thinks he's an adult but is still a child.

Truer words have never been said haha

 

[Oblivion]

Nah it's all our fault. Again. We're not doing enough.

That's what I've been trying to say all this time!

 

[charlequin]

I fail to see how action movies would no longer be entertaining if more women got to do things other than be a damsel in distress; Haywire was pretty good!

And Alien is widely agreed upon as one of the greatest sci-fi/horror films of all time, and Aliens one of the greatest action films of all time....

Your assessment of male teachers and bosses as irresponsible sexists and potential rapists is more than a little sexist in and of itself.

If you're going to participate in this discussion, I'd really prefer you do it in good faith. I think you can grasp that I'm referring to a subset of these groups, not literaly all of them.

But yes, sexism against female students and potential employees is rampant (and well-docuented) in the hard sciences as well as computer-related technical studies. I've observed both personally in my own time in the software industry and other first-hand reports are widely available.

Or maybe you have some sort of proof or statistics to back it up.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/stem-education/2012/01/03/wanted-technical-women <-- women across the board have less confidence in their technical abilities despite largely equivalent skills
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing#Barriers_to_advancement <-- general pattern of discouragement towards women in computing fields
http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/whysofew.cfm <-- broad study of barriers to advancement for women in technical fields

All in the first page of results for "statistics women technical fields."

Since it's all about equality, where's my paternity leave?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that 100% of feminist organizations that advocate for better maternity leave policies in the US actually support a general parental leave policy, because both men and women benefit from that flexibility and the added time off that such a policy would provide. I'm certainly all for it.

I'm sure parents are telling their daughters, "No you filthy whore, you better not go into computer science. It's psychology or sociology for you!" at a young age.

But, err... they are? I have friends, brilliant women, who were told as kids: "no you can't go to film school, that's a waste of money for a girl"; "don't bother majoring in computer science, you can't cut it"; "I don't see how AP Chemistry is going to find you a man." Again, it's not everyone by any means, but this sort of parental sexism is a big contributor to keeping women out of technical occupations.

Or are you saying females have an inability to think or act independently?

I am saying that culture affects people's behavior and that people react negatively both to barriers put in the way of them pursuing a particular goal and to messages telling them they can't accomplish that goal, all of which is really basic stuff that basically all reasonable people agree with.

Some of the very best male programmers are self taught. Are you saying females can't do the same thing?

This is the bootstraps myth. Being "self-taught" in challenging technical skills involves having free time to study, access to the resources needed for learning, and the ability to access other people who can help you when you get stuck. We've democratized all that stuff a good amount recently (which has helped ameliorate this problem) but we've by no means solved it.

Also, in terms of the specific topic you're talking about, being self-taught is almost useless anyway -- people don't generally get jobs at gaming companies as "self-taught" programmers or designers without relevant experience and schooling.

Guess what, men are men. They aren't female. They cannot read the minds of females and create female characters that accurately portray women any more than some white guy in the suburbs can accurately depict the life of a 23 year old everyday asian guy living in hong kong.

What do you think writing is? Pretty much no fiction authors have ever commanded a starship or led a medieval kingdom, and very few of them have ever solved a real murder or engaged in spycraft, yet we accept that authors can do justice to all of those things. To suggest that they can't do the same for women is kind of insulting to male authors.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

I do have a question for people in this thread, mainly about women body "types" in game. Let's take a look at something like Street Fighter for instance. As a series I think it's characters have the largest variety of body types and I think it's a really good example. Anyway, you look at the males and they come in all manner of shapes. Tall, short, fat, skinny, stocky, muscular, etc. And the women too come in a variety of sizes but not nearly as many. They're most of average/bulky muscular (Chun Li, R.Mika), lean muscular (Elena, Cammy) or small (Sakura, Matoko).

Anyway, it's interesting how this ends up being the case. Because in most game series any women with a build or outfit that isn't average is seen as sexualized but I've seen people actually complain that there isn't the variance in women as there is in male characters. I'm not sure if this comes from a conscious decision on the devs part or if it just happened that way. But the question is why is it that anything but average attractiveness and body features is seen as sexualized? People always ask for variety for varieties sake but then complain when that occurs.

Ignoring the actual non-physical aspects of the character and focusing solely on the design, can someone answer this? Yes I know. Games are designed by men and largely for men and as such characters are designed according to what's seen as "appealing" to men, male and female designs included. However, while games that include a large variety of males, some that clearly aren't ideal or appealing appearances exist, if the same games included the same variety in female designs you'd get complaints on any that were "above average" in certain aspects. For instance, can anyone think of a big breasted female game character that isn't sexualized? Or are big breasts inherently sexual to the point they can't be used without being criticized?

Let me pose another question, also about Street Fighter. Is Chun Li sexualized? I'm sure the answer would almost overwhelmingly be yes. Next question: how can her design be made to be less sexual? Again, I'm sure the answer would primarily involve toning down the exaggerated aspects of her design (boobs, thighs, etc). And there in lies a question I've been asking earlier in this post. Everything but average and conservative is seen as sexualized.

Fighting game have very means of characterization beyond purely physical, and Chun-Li at least doesn't have particularly sexualized comments so I wouldn't call her sexualized. She's still seen as strong and capable. She's got enormous legs but it makes sense given the fighting style. Street Fighter also has Makoto which is one of the least sexualized female characters in any fighting game, ever.

If only it were that simple. I believe many of these designers/writes/whatnot actually don't have enough understanding of women to properly write one that would please everyone: they were raised in a misogynistic environment after all. It's like trying to change your shit *after* the food has been eaten. Pushing more diversity in development teams would produce more natural results.

Anectode time: we finally have some female team members where I work and their input had significant impact in our work after all these years of sausage fest.

Obviously more women should be involved, but arguing that it's impossible for men to make good female characters is ridiculous and factually wrong. Good writers are perfectly capable of writing female characters as characters.

The problem is that this industry has one of the most ridiculously low standards for writers in any big one.

 

[Nert]

Can someone at least acknowledge that I posted something before?

I did read your post, although I'm not sure how to respond to it. Outside of acknowledging that most games are made with a male audience in mind, you mostly brought up counterpoints to an argument that no one in this thread seems to be making ("People always ask for variety for varieties sake but then complain when that occurs" and "Everything but average and conservative is seen as sexualized"). Who are the people that have these views that you're referring to? The people who think Chun-Li has a sexualized design don't automatically oppose women in fighting games having a variety of body types.

But, to look at your Street Fighter example for a second, think about the variety of dudes in the game. Rufus. Dhalsim. Blanka. Hakan. Whereas, as you note, the women mostly look the same, with how much clothing they're wearing and how exaggerated their breasts and thighs are serving as the primary differentiators.

"The same variety in character design" that you mention would include rail-thin yoga women, incredibly obese women, feral savage women with orange hair, and red women that have over 200 lbs of muscle. There you go, there's a diverse group of body types that's different than a simple range of how attractive they are to men. Not knowing the group of people that you're addressing, I don't know if they'd approve of that.

 

[Zoramon089]

So I guess my post was a bit confusing. I had a hard time putting into words what I was thinking but here's s simple question. Is it possible to design a large breasted female character without her being considered sexualized?

Breast size is a physical aspect, just like any other, that's at the disposal of a character designer when creating a character. But it seems that there's this inherent link between it and sexuality. And while there are a variety of reasons for that being the case, it seems a bit odd that something like that, or the body shape of the character, can only deviate so much from the average (ignoring muscular females) before it's considered sexual.

It's never the case where it's just that way for varieties sake, it's always it's that way because the character is meant to be sexualized. And I guess the point of bringing up Street Fighter is that you've got male characters who range from obese, to stocky to generic pretty boys and no one ever claims their design is done so in a sexualized manner. It's just done so for variety


And I realize this thread is mainly about tropes and cliches in female characterization but I thought this topic would be at least relevant

 

[stupei]

Quoting again from that same op-ed, since her response to "but writing women is hard" is pretty amusing:

Male writers' hesitation to use women as point of view characters seems to stem in part from a prevailing sense — perhaps not entirely unfounded — that one simply can't win, and that the tiniest gesture or cadence amiss could spark a frenzy. But a larger fraction of the hesitation seems to me to arise from two premises: first, the notion that women are essentially strangers, their consciousnesses wholly foreign; and second, that this foreignness, in addition to being unassailable, is also pretty limited and boring. A male writer who careens around in time, deviates from autobiography, or takes liberties with realism believes in the potential dramatic and aesthetic payoffs for doing so. Writing from a female point of view seems to be generally regarded as something more like writing from the perspective of a deer: you might get points for novelty, but it'd be impossible to get right, and who really wants to hear a deer narrate a story, anyway?

 

[M3d10n]

Diversity is good yes but getting men to also see women as people is the real answer since not every team or group of writers will have or listen to women on staff. Not to mention getting the community to warm up to depictions of women as people will be better accepted and welcomed with men also at the helm not just the assumption that women are the only ones who want this. If more men would also speak up about their desire to see female characters as something other than tropes or stereotypes than it would seem less like a "woman's" complaint no matter how justified.

I agree, I was just pointing the complications of changing the end-product without observing the whole chain. There's also the issue of the juvenile target "demographics" and the fact that gaming has such hilariously low writing standards.

 

[charlequin]

Totally anecdotal I know, but I was in the classroom when a professor at one of the top two film schools in the country said: "A female DP [cinematographer] is a genetic impossibility." He then went on to discuss how camera work is largely based in an understanding of science and math while also requiring the physical capacity to hold sort of heavy equipment for hours on end, so it's not remotely possible for women to do.

This is extra depressing given that I found out yesterday that only 4% of DPs are women, far and away the lowest percentage for any position in the film industry.

Fighting game have very means of characterization beyond purely physical, and Chun-Li at least doesn't have particularly sexualized comments so I wouldn't call her sexualized.

Yeah, I agree. Chun-Li is actually one of my go-to examples of a character who's perceived as sexy, attractive, cosplayable, etc. but whose design is not innately sexualized to try to add gratuitous appeal to the male eye.

 

[Devolution]

So I guess my post was a bit confusing. I had a hard time putting into words what I was thinking but here's s simple question. Is it possible to design a large breasted female character without her being considered sexualized?

Breast size is a physical aspect, just like any other, that's at the disposal of a character designer when creating a character. But it seems that there's this inherent link between it and sexuality. And while there are a variety of reasons for that being the case, it seems a bit odd that something like that, or the body shape of the character, can only deviate so much from the average (ignoring muscular females) before it's considered sexual.

It's never the case where it's just that way for varieties sake, it's always it's that way because the character is meant to be sexualized. And I guess the point of bringing up Street Fighter is that you've got male characters who range from obese, to stocky to generic pretty boys and no one ever claims their design is done so in a sexualized manner. It's just done so for variety

It's possible to make sexy characters that are more than their appearance. The problem is that you've got a wealth of sexualized characters who have no depth or are nothing more than tropes. You know who was sexy but I still managed to like? Morrigan from DA: Origins because she was a sarcastic cynical asshole. And that resonated with me despite her garb. If more women were simply written as characters and more were actually designed with their strengths or "job" description in mind I imagine most feminists would have had way less issue with a character like Bayonetta. But since the industry standard for women is over sexualized, weak or strong and silent, she became more background noise to those who want to see better representation of women in games.

I agree, I was just pointing the complications of changing the end-product without observing the whole chain. There's also the issue of the juvenile target "demographics" and the fact that gaming has such hilariously low writing standards.

Indeed.

 

[Zoramon089]

But a larger fraction of the hesitation seems to me to arise from two premises: first, the notion that women are essentially strangers, their consciousnesses wholly foreign; and second, that this foreignness, in addition to being unassailable, is also pretty limited and boring

That's a pretty major assertion to make without any real evidence to back it up.

I do think that the major reason isn't that they're seen as wholly different but that they experience different nuanced things that a male writer wouldn't be able to fully understand and elaborate on. I mean, are threads like this evidence that that's the case? I mean just take a simple role such as being an employee at a male dominated office (basically the usual case). For a man trying to write a female character in this role, the obvious differences that could be used in characterization. She's could be discriminated against, seen as less capable, depending on how she looks there's possibly some harassment, etc, but how to use those elements in a way that comes off as natural? I'd probably be difficult for a male to do so without creating a character where those things influence her so subtly that they're not even acknowledged or so much that she comes off as whiny or bitchy, depending on how she handles it.

Don't take this as me saying there shouldn't be an effort made to create nuanced female characters, just that I disagree with her assertion on the reasons why they're shied away from

 

[Devolution]

That's a pretty major assertion to make without any real evidence to back it up

The producer of Tomb Raider came out and said that gamers could not project themselves onto her. Given how many female protagonists are written, even the strong ones (with very little dialogue), I'd say there is a wealth of evidence in gaming (and other parts of society/media) to back up the idea of women as the non-default or foreign/alien character.

 

[Oblivion]

Fighting game have very means of characterization beyond purely physical, and Chun-Li at least doesn't have particularly sexualized comments so I wouldn't call her sexualized. She's still seen as strong and capable. She's got enormous legs but it makes sense given the fighting style.

Yeah, I agree. Chun-Li is actually one of my go-to examples of a character who's perceived as sexy, attractive, cosplayable, etc. but whose design is not innately sexualized to try to add gratuitous appeal to the male eye.

Wait, seriously? Chun Li's pretty smokin, and the martial art style excuse doesn't work because she practices wing chun which doesn't emphasize kicking as much punching. If what you said was true, the internet meme would be about Chun Li's forearms instead of Chun Li's thighs.

Also, this:

and this:

 

[M3d10n]

That's a pretty major assertion to make without any real evidence to back it up

The way society segregates men and women makes this very obvious. Stupei's great post illustrated this well: women are "required" to understand men to survive in this world, but men can do fine even if they see nothing beyond walking vaginas.

Also, a good writer can always resort to something called "research". That's how they manage to create solid stories on characters which live completely different situations than their own. Otherwise, the only well-written stories we'd get would be autobiographies.

Of course, it's way beyond the standards for most game writing.

 

[Devolution]

Wait, seriously? Chun Li's pretty smokin, and the martial art style excuse doesn't work because she practices wing chun which doesn't emphasize kicking as much punching. If what you said was true, the internet meme would be about Chun Li's forearms instead of Chun Li's thighs.

Also, this:

and this:

I'd say she's a different problem. Forcing sexualization on a character who really seems like she didn't start out as such.

 

[stupei]

That's a pretty major assertion to make without any real evidence to back it up. I do think that the major reason isn't that they're seen as wholly different but that they experience different nuanced things that a male writer wouldn't be able to fully understand and elaborate on. I mean, are threads like this evidence that that's the case? I mean just take a simple role such as being an employee at a male dominated office (basically the usual case). For a man trying to write a female character in this role, the obvious differences come to mind. She's probably discriminated against, seen as less capable, depending on how she looks there's possibly some harrassment, etc, but how to use those elements in a way that comes off as natural? I'd probably be difficult for a male to do so without creating a character where those things influence her so subtly that they're not even acknowledged or so much that she comes off as whiny or bitchy, depending on how she handles it.

Don't take this as me saying there shouldn't be an effort made to create nuanced female characters, just that I disagree with her assertion on the reasons why they're shied away from

Her essential assertion throughout the piece is that women are exposed to male characters across all media from an early age. We read about the male consciousness as written by both male and female authors. Then we write essays about it. We learn to empathize and analyze a male perspective in our english classrooms but also at home and at our movie theaters. The male perspective is the main thrust of almost every major story that we encounter in our lives. We engage with men at the majority of employment opportunities and we frequently encounter the male point of view when persuading someone to give us a raise.

Because of this, female creators do not tend to shy away from writing men. We don't think of men as wholly foreign, hard to understand Others because the male experienced is highly normalized. It's not something we have to guess at because it's something we have come to understand to some degree our entire lives. The same can't be said for most men and the female perspective because, as she says, understanding and engaging with the female point of view is not a requirement for life in the modern world. It simply isn't.

Most young men won't read books at school told from a female protagonist's perspective and they won't see many movies with a female hero. Their TV shows won't have predominantly female casts.

The piece isn't meant as a criticism or condemnation of men for not being brave or savvy enough to "get it," but rather an elaboration on why female agency in stories is important for young women but also for young men. She goes on to suggest that reading books about female points of views -- or engaging with films with female heroes, or games with female characters -- might gradually chip away at that feeling of "unknown" or otherness that makes male creatives hesitant to engage with the unfamiliar female perspective.

As charlequin says, nobody seems to say, "But I've never been a vampire, so I can't write one." Creation isn't only about what you know; it's also largely about what inspires you. And unfortunately, men don't seem to find the female mind very inspiring. Perhaps that's just because too many are unfamiliar with it. I don't think that you and she are entirely in disagreement, but she believes that fiction is a bridge between these differences that can make greater understanding (and interest) possible.

The way society segregates men and women makes this very obvious. Stupei's great post illustrated this well: women are "required" to understand men to survive in this world, but men can do fine even if they see nothing beyond walking vaginas.

Yeah, a lot of what Jennifer duBois covers in that piece feels like something we all already know but she illustrates and elaborates so very well. I think I might have to read her book.

 

[charlequin]

Wait, seriously? Chun Li's pretty smokin

Like I said: sexy but not (very) sexualized.

Also, this:

So those outfits (which I haven't seen before) are definitely designed just to show off her body (low-cut boobage, crotch windows, etc.) and definitely fall into the sexualized category (and also look super dumb IMO), but I'm really only talking about the classic, iconic SF2 design.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

Wait, seriously? Chun Li's pretty smokin, and the martial art style excuse doesn't work because she practices wing chun which doesn't emphasize kicking as much punching. If what you said was true, the internet meme would be about Chun Li's forearms instead of Chun Li's thighs.

... Well obviously I speak about her main (and Alpha) costumes.

And her fighting style ressembles the real deal in about two things. She's still mostly known for the attack where she kicks a lot of times and the legcopter.

Don't get me wrong, fighting games still have a long way to go regarding portraying "non ultrasexy" female characters, but I think Chun-Li is fairly tame. Internet memes aside, she's still mostly known because she's one of the few female videogame characters people would recognize she can kick anyone's ass.

Also, if you don't know how to make a female character, write a male character who doesn't exaggerate his manliness and how much of a macho he is, and you probably are writting a gender neutral one.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Totally anecdotal I know, but I was in the classroom when a professor at one of the top two film schools in the country said: "A female DP [cinematographer] is a genetic impossibility." He then went on to discuss how camera work is largely based in an understanding of science and math while also requiring the physical capacity to hold sort of heavy equipment for hours on end, so it's not remotely possible for women to do.

That was pleasant.

That's.... dear lord. Wow.

 

[Femmeworth]

Some of the official artwork for Chun-li is more overtly sexually appealing.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I'm surprised nobody in this thread has yet to blame it all on "our Puritanical upbringing".

Although, for that, I suppose I'd need to go into a Witcher 2 thread.

 

[Devolution]

Some of the official artwork for Chun-li is more overtly sexually appealing.

Yeah in-game I just never really took time to notice it as much. Or I saw much more egregious stuff like in DoA or Soul Calibur so by comparison she's covered up.

 

[M3d10n]

Her essential assertion throughout the piece is that women are exposed to male characters across all media from an early age. We read about the male consciousness as written by both male and female authors. Then we write essays about it. We learn to empathize and analyze a male perspective in our english classrooms but also at home and at our movie theaters. The male perspective is the main thrust of almost every major story that we encounter in our lives. We engage with men at the majority of employment opportunities and we frequently encounter the male point of view when persuading someone to give us a raise.

Because of this, female creators do not tend to shy away from writing men. We don't think of men as wholly foreign, hard to understand Others because the male experienced is highly normalized. It's not something we have to guess at because it's something we have come to understand to some degree our entire lives. The same can't be said for most men and the female perspective because, as she says, understanding and engaging with the female point of view is not a requirement for life in the modern world. It simply isn't.

Most young men won't read books at school told from a female protagonist's perspective and they won't see many movies with a female hero. Their TV shows won't have predominantly female casts.

The piece isn't meant as a criticism or condemnation of men for not being brave or savvy enough to "get it," but rather an elaboration on why female agency in stories is important for young women but also for young men. She goes on to suggest that reading books about female points of views -- or engaging with films with female heroes, or games with female characters -- might gradually chip away at that feeling of "unknown" or otherness that makes male creatives hesitant to engage with the unfamiliar female perspective.

As charlequin says, nobody seems to say, "But I've never been a vampire, so I can't write one." Creation isn't only about what you know; it's also largely about what inspires you. And unfortunately, men don't seem to find the female mind very inspiring. Perhaps that's just because too many are unfamiliar with it. I don't think that you and she are entirely in disagreement, but she believes that fiction is a bridge between these differences that can make greater understanding (and interest) possible.

What's most interesting about this is that it explains common relationship problems like the fabled "it's hard to know what she's thinking". I actually remember reading a research about this and the results showed that men were easier to "read" (by both men and women) than women.

 

[Femmeworth]

Yeah in-game I just never really took time to notice it as much. Or I saw much more egregious stuff like in DoA or Soul Calibur so by comparison she's covered up.

She's definitely better than some of the other stuff out there. Her design definitely was made to have some sex appeal. China dress + pantyhose/leggings.

 

[7Th]

Yeah in-game I just never really took time to notice it as much. Or I saw much more egregious stuff like in DoA or Soul Calibur so by comparison she's covered up.

There is very little in gaming more egregious than DoA or SC...

 

[M3d10n]

She's definitely better than some of the other stuff out there. Her design definitely was made to have some sex appeal. China dress + pantyhose/leggings.

Nothing beats Makoto's farmer costume:

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

By the way, I understand the context in what you were saying earlier, Dev, but as a male writer whose protagonists are 90% female, it kind of offended me.

Just a bit. Tiny bit.

 

[Gintamen]

Who is saying that? Who besides the 12-year olds that want big breasted Lara back?

Those twelve year olds that remember her are double that age now.