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[Ragingnight]

What was her bastion argument?

Yeah I want to know this as well

 

[idlethreats]

It's incitable to call a revered game sexist without offering any further discourse than a couple of hash tags.

If she wanted a full discussion, she would have released a video. All this is doing is gaining her more visibility.

Or she's just sharing her off the cuff opinions with her fans/like-minded folks?

If Ico was less revered, would that make it okay? Personally, I don't think Team Ico's games are that sexist compared to other, far worse offenders in the industry (though Ueda's utterly idiotic statements about why he decided to not have a girl protagonist in TLG make me inclined to be less charitable when interpreting his games), but I'm not bothered by her interpretation of the game either. It's a valid one and does nothing to take away from what I experienced with the game.

But, full disclosure I suppose, I know Anita IRL and know that she is a genuinely thoughtful, intelligent and lovely person, so I guess I will never understand the point of view of her detractors in the gaming community, even though I don't always see eye to eye with her in her criticisms of pop culture.

 

[bernardobri]

While Anita gets through ICO and SOTC, and testing whenever they are trope-proof or not, I hope she gives also an insight about the overall themes of each games. (Which are arguably genderless and brings a different perspective to all the "women are treated poorly on videogames" motto).

What's with this self-entitled attitude? Polygon puts up an absurd trailer and they get mocked and made fun of, but this lady seems to get pure venom of the 'well she better prove herself!' variety. It's honestly disturbing.

Treating GAF as a single-entity doesn't help too much to the conversation, IMO.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Or she's just sharing her off the cuff opinions with her fans/like-minded folks?

If Ico was less revered, would that make it okay? Personally, I don't think Team Ico's games are that sexist compared to other, far worse offenders in the industry (though Ueda's utterly idiotic statements about why he decided to not have a girl protagonist in TLG make me inclined to be less charitable when interpreting his games), but I'm not bothered by her interpretation of the game either. It's a valid one and does nothing to take away from what I experienced with the game.

But, full disclosure I suppose, I know Anita IRL and know that she is a genuinely thoughtful, intelligent and lovely person, so I guess I will never understand the point of view of her detractors in the gaming community, even though I don't always see eye to eye with her in her criticisms of pop culture.

Ah, I was waiting for the but. She's just being inflammatory right now, nothing more.

 

[Trey]

The entire game has pretty weak characterization. You're supposed to gleem the wants and needs of each character for a handful of poorly done comic pages, and the rest of the game is more characterizing the city than the pro/antagonists.

You know, I really kind of wish she would start with Dragon's Lair. I think that would have been a lot more poignant and could have been a really interesting curve ball.

The only real things Faith has as a character (besides what you impart to her, Half-Life-Gordon-Freeman-Is-You-style) are moral integrity, fierce loyalty/strong familial leanings, determination and absolutely no sense of vertigo. It's a pretty basic good-guy template applied to a freerunner. I like how they add a layer of family to it that some games don't match (and others easily surpass), but it's still sparse as characters go. Then again, considering the other characters out there in the medium, this low-key portrayal may be a plus.

Her inclusion may be more about the character's design, which frankly shows off more of the character than her interactions with others. It's a damned good design.

Hm. Nothing really sticks out. A shame.

Unlike this motherfucker right here, the epitome of great female game characters.

Scorchy said it best in his extremely entertaining and well written KotOR2 LP:

Past all the plot nuances and Star Warsy stuff, the big advancement this game made was to create the best written female character in a game ever. This is even a greater accomplishment if you consider that the writing staff, judging from the credits, was all male.

Have any games before or after this tried to write in the protaganist's mother as a deep, main character? You of course have miles and miles of paternal icons scattered everywhere, to the point where it's clichéd (for exhibit A, see progenitor unit Gandalf), but the feminine point of view is utterly lacking. Part of this is a function of the demographics of the developers working in the game industry I guess, but you'd think a shockingly simple idea as writing an in-depth maternal figure would have gotten more mileage elsewhere.

Kreia has gone through 3 names, 2 costumes, and countless lies at this point, but you always get the sense that she's stayed true to her own character throughout. That's good writing.

I may have missed something in this thread or in Anita's pre-release hype over her project, but I haven't seen any real mention of Kreia, da bawse. Criminal. Her very existence flies in the face of every single point made against this industry on this particular front. All of them. At the same time.

Being in the black sheep -- yet superior -- KotOR game has harmed her visibility, I suppose. Or maybe she's just not recent enough. But Kreia needs to be at the forefront of this discussion as an example, in some form or fashion.

 

[Aaron]

Treating GAF as a single-entity doesn't help too much to the conversation, IMO.

The whole point of quoting someone is to make specific statements, and not applying them to the general reader.

 

[Zoe]

Or she's just sharing her off the cuff opinions with her fans/like-minded folks?

If Ico was less revered, would that make it okay? Personally, I don't think Team Ico's games are that sexist compared to other, far worse offenders in the industry (though Ueda's utterly idiotic statements about why he decided to not have a girl protagonist in TLG make me inclined to be less charitable when interpreting his games), but I'm not bothered by her interpretation of the game either. It's a valid one and does nothing to take away from what I experienced with the game.

But, full disclosure I suppose, I know Anita IRL and know that she is a genuinely thoughtful, intelligent and lovely person, so I guess I will never understand the point of view of her detractors in the gaming community, even though I don't always see eye to eye with her in her criticisms of pop culture.

If she had posted a tweet saying "Cookie and Cream is sexist because the girl bunny is pink," nobody would give a fuck and just move on because that is an obscure game with few fans. Posting about ICO is guaranteed to stir up the community, and some of us see that as a dirty handed.

 

[Trey]

Is there further context to this whole ICO thing? Like developer comments or somesuch.

 

[idlethreats]

If she had posted a tweet saying "Cookie and Cream is sexist because the girl bunny is pink," nobody would give a fuck and just move on because that is an obscure game with few fans. Posting about ICO is guaranteed to stir up the community, and some of see that as a dirty handed.

The thing is, she literally does not benefit much from intentionally stirring up her antagonists. The more she puts herself out there, the more people target her with with threats. Some of the things she's been subjected to over the past few months -the things that she's not talking about publicly for security reasons- are honestly terrifying and she is actively seeking to minimize the danger to her that this project poses. Ofc, she's not going to let the threats shut her up, but it does mean that she's not going out of her way to piss people off. The notion that she is deliberately trying to inflame or incite others is sorely misguided. That's the exact opposite of what someone in her shoes, inundated with threats of violence, rape and death (which have not let up in the months since the Kickstarter ended), would do.

The only way that makes sense is if you honestly believe that she cares more about attention for attention's sake than her own safety. If that is what you think, well, I simply don't know what to say to you.

Is there further context to this whole ICO thing? Like developer comments or somesuch.

Not about Ico. There are some pretty damning statements from Ueda regarding gender and The Last Guardian though.

 

[Riposte]

If she had posted a tweet saying "Cookie and Cream is sexist because the girl bunny is pink," nobody would give a fuck and just move on because that is an obscure game with few fans. Posting about ICO is guaranteed to stir up the community, and some of see that as a dirty handed.

It wouldn't be the first time she has been accused of being a bit manipulative.


I think she likes Faith because she is an empowered female character in a world plenty of relevant female characters filling multiple roles and she is an asian who doesn't look eurasian or like a korean pop star. On the level of aesthetics that fits the bill which would satisfy most feminist.

It was a great game too. Too bad is sold like shit and thus has since been treated like shit. It makes me wonder if the game was made starring a male protagonist (or perhaps a more common female character design) and had a slightly more "masculine" bent (especially on the cover and advertising) we could have had a Mirror's Edge 2, an advancement on the first one (which would likely mean an advancement for the FPS genre). I'd throw Faith under the bus in a second for that. I'm bringing up this hypothetical to show what is really on my mind: the whole picture, not just the skin. Game commentary obsessed with only the skin ("tropes") is doomed to be superficial and will likely look misguided to those who delve deep into games.

My opinion of Anita right now is that she isn't a very insightful person. However she could cause some sort of change in opinion among developers simply by being dumb in the right place at the right time though, so by succeeding in her goal maybe she isn't that dumb. We are in the age of twitter and kickstarters after all. In a world where game journalists are investing matters as trivial as their own site launches or other journalists, she has a lot of visibility.

That's the exact opposite of what someone in her shoes, inundated with threats of violence, rape and death (which have not let up in the months since the Kickstarter ended), would do.

Has there ever been a case where a YouTube comment has lead to an incident? That would be interesting...

 

[Onemic]

Has she made those videos yet? Im assuming her kickstarter ended a whole ago.

 

[UrbanRats]

I don't think we should "just ignore her".

Of course you can do whatever you want with your time, i'm just saying that she's just a youtuber, a popular one, but like many others alongside her.
If you don't find her videos compelling it would simply be easier to ignore them, is what i'm saying.

You can (moreover) still be interested in the argument of videogames and feminism without being interested in her stuff specifically.

 

[B-Genius]

The thing is, she literally does not benefit much from intentionally stirring up her antagonists. The more she puts herself out there, the more people target her with with threats. Some of the things she's been subjected to over the past few months -the things that she's not talking about publicly for security reasons- are honestly terrifying and she is actively seeking to minimize the danger to her that this project poses. Ofc, she's not going to let the threats shut her up, but it does mean that she's not going out of her way to piss people off. The notion that she is deliberately trying to inflame or incite others is sorely misguided. That's the exact opposite of what someone in her shoes, inundated with threats of violence, rape and death (which have not let up in the months since the Kickstarter ended), would do.

The only way that makes sense is if you honestly believe that she cares more about attention for attention's sake than her own safety. If that is what you think, well, I simply don't know what to say to you.

It's great that you know her and all, but when she makes remarks like this:

"Quite entertaining seeing all these tweets trying desperately to defend the Damsel in Distress trope as somehow not sexist."

it's difficult to not interpret it as "deliberately trying to inflame or incite". If she doesn't benefit from intentionally rocking the boat, then what exactly is the point of these tweets?

Maybe I and others like myself should not take this all so seriously... but isn't that one of the points she's trying to make; that we should be taking this medium, and interpretations of its subject matter more seriously? I'd like to think that no one on this board would advocate those threatening her, or think she deserves all she's been through. But can we make it not so much about her, and about the topic at hand?

While Anita gets through ICO and SOTC, and testing whenever they are trope-proof or not, I hope she gives also an insight about the overall themes of each games. (Which are arguably genderless and brings a different perspective to all the "women are treated poorly on videogames" motto).

I think this is all many of us are asking for. If she really has finished the game, and is not just trying to get attention, she would have come to a better-informed conclusion, or at least formed a more balanced argument. But again, perhaps she's saving that for her videos.

 

[rCIZZLE]

Wondering if anything positive will come out of these videos when they're released. I'd think a better way to make an impact on the industry is spending more time giving exposure to the quality, woman-friendly games. Would prefer if these weren't full of sarcasm or cherry picked examples that only work to support her argument.

 

[idlethreats]

It's great that you know her and all, but when she makes remarks like this:

"Quite entertaining seeing all these tweets trying desperately to defend the Damsel in Distress trope as somehow not sexist."

it's difficult to not interpret it as "deliberately trying to inflame or incite". If she doesn't benefit from intentionally rocking the boat, then what exactly is the point of these tweets?

Obv I don't speak for Anita (I honestly don't really know her that well, she's a personal friend of my partner and I've only spoken with her about these issues on a few occasions), but as someone who has spent 5+ years in feminist gaming circles, I interpreted that tweet as sort of a LOLSOB moment. Sexism is absurdly rampant in video games and it can be incredibly depressing. Sometimes the only way to keep yourself sane and from getting completely down in the dumps is by laughing about it with your friends. Like, if you don't laugh you're gonna cry, or something like that. It can be a sort of defense mechanism, because if I didn't find some way to shrug off some of the sexism in gaming, it would be pretty hard to keep up with this hobby that I love. I think that tweet was probably just her trying to share a laugh with other feminist gamers on Twitter to take some of the sting out of it, because the reality that many people do not recognize something as obvious as that trope as sexist is pretty upsetting if you let yourself dwell on it.

I think this is all many of us are asking for. If she really has finished the game, and is not just trying to get attention, she would have come to a better-informed conclusion, or at least formed a more balanced argument. But again, perhaps she's saving that for her videos.

I think that is an erroneous conclusion to come to. Just because her opinion about the game is different than yours doesn't mean that she's ill-informed or that it's the wrong opinion. As I've said, I don't think Ico is that sexist (it's about on par for course with the usual amount of sexism in media, and probably because I like the game I am more willing to look the other way), but it seems a bit presumptuous to me to assume that because she reached a different conclusion than you about a game, she must have ulterior motives. People experience things differently and have different opinions based on that experience, that's all.

And honestly, maybe she hasn't finished the game. Maybe this is the first time she's playing it and she

Spoiler

hasn't encountered the Queen yet or seen Yorda save Ico from the castle

. I don't see how that would invalidate her in-progress opinion of the game as she's playing it or make it a bad thing to share her current opinion with her followers. People share their in-progress opinions about games all the time here, after all.

 

[B-Genius]

Obv I don't speak for Anita (I honestly don't really know her that well, she's a personal friend of my partner and I've only spoken with her about these issues on a few occasions), but as someone who has spent 5+ years in feminist gaming circles, I interpreted that tweet as sort of a LOLSOB moment. Sexism is absurdly rampant in video games and it can be incredibly depressing. Sometimes the only way to keep yourself sane and from getting completely down in the dumps is by laughing about it with your friends. Like, if you don't laugh you're gonna cry, or something like that. It can be a sort of defense mechanism, because if I didn't find some way to shrug off some of the sexism in gaming, it would be pretty hard to keep up with this hobby that I love. I think that tweet was probably just her trying to share a laugh with other feminist gamers on Twitter to take some of the sting out of it, because the reality that many people do not recognize something as obvious as that trope as sexist is pretty upsetting if you let yourself dwell on it.

Thanks for the quick and rational response! Even if these tweets are just lolsobs, the fact is that she has caused quite a stir - as Riposte so eloquently put it: "by being dumb in the right place at the right time" - with her Kickstarter, and has a lot of expectation to live up to. Not talking about the glaring "ooh, if a-you're gonna call out my favourite game, Lucy you've got a-some explainin' to do!" crowd - I mean that she has drawn attention from more passive (yet still passionate) gamers who will want to see what she makes of it all, and hopefully be educated on the subject, so they can then educate their fellow gamer.

I think that is an erroneous conclusion to come to. Just because her opinion about the game is different than yours doesn't mean that she's ill-informed or that it's the wrong opinion. As I've said, I don't think Ico is that sexist (it's about on par for course with the usual amount of sexism in media, and probably because I like the game I am more willing to look the other way), but it seems a bit presumptuous to me to assume that because she reached a different conclusion than you about a game, she must have ulterior motives. People experience things differently and have different opinions based on that experience, that's all.

It was flippant of me to call her ill-informed, but again I'd just like to see some more thought going into her opinions, which seem to be largely knee-jerk reaction-based so far. Of course we're all entitled to our opinion, regardless, but to say people experience things differently and form different opinions based on that... well, you could technically use that to stuff the whole project entirely, let alone countless other arguments about games with rich settings and deep subject matter.

And honestly, maybe she hasn't finished the game. Maybe this is the first time she's playing it and she

Spoiler

hasn't encountered the Queen yet or seen Yorda save Ico from the castle

. I don't see how that would invalidate her in-progress opinion of the game as she's playing it or make it a bad thing to share her current opinion with her followers. People share their in-progress opinions about games all the time here, after all.

True enough. I guess we should take it as an in-progress opinion for now, and await her finished work on the videos. Although people do get shot down on here for not finishing a game before making LTTP threads, etc.

Hmm. I can't help it. I think the problem I have with this initial report on ICO is that it's such a weird example. It's not even a real cherry pick. It's hard to make sense of it when there are other far more ridiculous examples out there that dumb down games and represent gender roles poorly. I also agree with the idea that focusing on the positive representations of female role-models in games would be a much more satisfying, eye-opening method.

 

[Akainu]

Neat thing about Ico is if you get stuck on a puzzle Yorda actually points you in the right direction.

 

[GrandHarrier]

You know, I never thought Yorda was "helpless" because she was a girl, but because she lived in a cage in a castle virtually alone her entire life. A boy in the same scenario would have been no different.

 

[Kinyou]

Is the Team Ico comment about how a boy has more grip strength and that they wont have to worry about camera angles really that sexist?

In sport threads people seem to generally agree that men simply have more physical strength.

And the camera comment sounds rather practical. They just don't want to get the reputation of being the next favorite game of some peverts. Not the girl is the problem here but rather some of the people who'll play the game.

 

[idlethreats]

Thanks for the quick and rational response! Even if these tweets are just lolsobs, the fact is that she has caused quite a stir - as Riposte so eloquently put it: "by being dumb in the right place at the right time" - with her Kickstarter, and has a lot of expectation to live up to. Not talking about the glaring "ooh, if a-you're gonna call out my favourite game, Lucy you've got a-some explainin' to do!" crowd - I mean that she has drawn attention from more passive (yet still passionate) gamers who will want to see what she makes of it all, and hopefully be educated on the subject, so they can then educate their fellow gamer.

That's a fair point, though I'd guess that she's probably still adjusting to be under the spotlight and the focus of such intense scrutiny. She is just one person who had an unexpectedly and absurdly successful Kickstarter, after all, and I do think her primary responsibility is to provide the content that her backers want, not appease or address the concerns of the contingent that has decried her work from the start. I see what you're saying about the folks in the middle ground though - I think from her POV, that's who she'll hope to reach with her videos though, not via Twitter, which is much more of a social, snappy medium.

It was flippant of me to call her ill-informed, but again I'd just like to see some more thought going into her opinions, which seem to be largely knee-jerk reaction-based so far. Of course we're all entitled to our opinion, regardless, but to say people experience things differently and form different opinions based on that... well, you could technically use that to stuff the whole project entirely, let alone countless other arguments about games with rich settings and deep subject matter.

That's true, I suppose I didn't really unravel that thought well enough. What I was thinking of is that sometimes things that may not seem that bad to some people, end up being the straw the breaks the camel's back for others. For example, I am a pretty big fan of the Uncharted series, and when Naughty Dog announced The Last of Us, I was super hyped. Then they revealed that Joel is the protagonist and Ellie is just an NPC (as opposed to being a co-op game, or allowing players to choose between which character to play, as I'd hoped) and, well, I lost my shit. Yet another middle-aged, brown-haired white male player character? Why couldn't ND be more creative than that? I was ticked and swore off the game.

Now, from one point of view, that seems like an absurd overreaction. All things considered, ND has an excellent track record with its portrayal of women in recent games. Elena and Chloe from Uncharted are fantastic. There's no reason to think that ND wouldn't handle Ellie and Joel's relationship with her with the same nuance and respect that they did with the Uncharted series. OTOH, Joel is yet another white dude protag, a group that is seriously overrepresented in a medium that sorely lacks women and characters of color. Whether The Last of Us is a great game or not, he is contributing to the problem to some degree. Ultimately, I think both POVs are justified, depending on where you're coming from and what your values are.

So all of this is a long-winded, roundabout way of saying that even though Anita's interpretation of Ico may differ widely from yours or from mine, I don't think it's any less valid. Maybe she's just fed up with damsels in distress and Ico was the last straw. Maybe she really loves Ico's gameplay and atmosphere and that just makes Yorda's portrayal all the more heartbreaking and her criticism more biting (we are, I think, harshest with the things we love). Twitter doesn't lend itself well to detailed analyses, but it is good for sharing bite-sized thoughts with your friends (and other like-minded people who follow you because they see value in hearing your thoughts), which I suspect is probably what she was trying to do. I don't think she's that interested in reaching her detractors and skeptics at this stage in the project, honestly. She talked a bit at GeekGirlCon about not seeing the value in engaging with her critics and the people who are attacking her right now, that it's a better use of her time to focus on researching and producing the videos and letting them speak for her and themselves once they're out (paraphrasing, but IIRC that was the gist of what she said).

True enough. I guess we should take it as an in-progress opinion for now, and await her finished work on the videos. Although people do get shot down on here for not finishing a game before making LTTP threads, etc.

Yeah, I was thinking more with OTs and the like (and to a lesser extent, all of the people I see who declare that they played FF XIII for 10-15 hours and then quit because they hated it).

Hmm. I can't help it. I think the problem I have with this initial report on ICO is that it's such a weird example. It's not even a real cherry pick. It's hard to make sense of it when there are other far more ridiculous examples out there that dumb down games and represent gender roles poorly. I also agree with the idea that focusing on the positive representations of female role-models in games would be a much more satisfying, eye-opening method.

I think there is value in providing a range of examples that demonstrate a problem, though. Like, absolutely yes, include the really egregious offenders like Dead or Alive or whatever, but it's also important to highlight less obvious examples from games that we take for granted or think of as harmless, because that more insidious, commonplace sexism is damaging in the composite as well.

Neat thing about Ico is if you get stuck on a puzzle Yorda actually points you in the right direction.

Whoa, never noticed that! This fits with my theory that

Spoiler

Ico is not really "rescuing" Yorda, she's just humoring him because she's bored, has nothing better to do and she knows Mom's not gonna let her outta that castle anyway

.

You know, I never thought Yorda was "helpless" because she was a girl, but because she lived in a cage in a castle virtually alone her entire life. A boy in the same scenario would have been no different.

Well, I think the criticism is that scenarios in which boys are helpless and need to be rescued by girls/women are few and far in between, while scenarios in which girls like Yorda need to be rescued boys/men are abundant and overrepresented in games and other media. It's less of a problem on the level of an individual game, and more of a problem when you look at the over-reliance on this trope in the composite across many games. But you can't really discuss the problem w/o citing examples, so some games get singled out when, if considered in isolation, they might not seem that bad otherwise.

Is the Team Ico comment about how a boy has more grip strength and that they wont have to worry about camera angles really that sexist?

In sport threads people seem to generally agree that men simply have more physical strength.

And the camera comment sounds rather practical. They just don't want to get the reputation of being the next favorite game of some peverts. Not the girl is the problem here but rather some of the people who'll play the game.

Yes. Of course there's no denying that, on the whole, men possess more physical strength than women but we're talking about a game starring a giant bird lion thing. Realism isn't a very good excuse. Plus, I'm not sure that muscle mass is that different between girls and boys before they hit puberty? And finally, if Wander from SotC is anything to go by, no human, male or female, possess the kind of grip strength that's necessary to succeed in a Team Ico game, so it's a little absurd to claim that they were going for realism wrt to gripping strength at all.

On the second point, girls are not restricted to wearing skirts so it's an exceedingly odd and retrogressive argument to suggest that you can't have a girl protag because upskirt shots. Just design her with pants, leggings or shorts. A girl could have worn the exact same outfit that the boy is wearing and wouldn't have looked out place (since he's basically wearing a dress w/leggings, an outfit that is far more common for girls to wear than boys anyway).

Is it the most sexist thing ever? No. But it's pretty weird and indefensible, I'd say.


Aaaaaand w/that, I have posted more than enough in this thread for the time being. Exit stage left.

 

[Htown]

Is the Team Ico comment about how a boy has more grip strength and that they wont have to worry about camera angles really that sexist?

Yes.

Plenty of female rock climbers out there, bro.

In sport threads people seem to generally agree that men simply have more physical strength.

There's a difference between making the generalization that men, as a whole, tend to have more physical strength than women and saying that therefore no woman you put in your game can ever do anything that requires exertion because all women are too weak.

And the camera comment sounds rather practical. They just don't want to get the reputation of being the next favorite game of some peverts. Not the girl is the problem here but rather some of the people who'll play the game.

Girls can wear things besides skirts and dresses. Even if they do wear those, leggings exist.

You know, I never thought Yorda was "helpless" because she was a girl, but because she lived in a cage in a castle virtually alone her entire life. A boy in the same scenario would have been no different.

The whole point is that the game's creator chose not to put a boy in the same scenario and have said that a female will never be the main character in one of his games.

 

[Flame Lord]

What's with this self-entitled attitude? Polygon puts up an absurd trailer and they get mocked and made fun of, but this lady seems to get pure venom of the 'well she better prove herself!' variety. It's honestly disturbing.

Usually when you pay people to do a job you want it to be done well.

 

[Blackhead]

How to be a fan of problematic things

I like things, and some of those things are problematic. I like Lord of the Rings even though it’s pretty fucked up with regard to women and race (any narrative that says “this whole race is evil” is fucked up, okay). I like A Song of Ice and Fire even though its portrayal of people of colour is problematic, and often I find that its in-text condemnation of patriarchy isn’t obvious enough to justify the sexism displayed. I like the movie Scott Pilgrim vs The World even though it is racist in its portrayal of Matthew Patel, panders to stereotypes in its portrayal of Wallace, and trivialises queer female sexuality in its portrayal of Ramona and Roxy’s relationship. For fuck’s sake, Ramona even says “It was a phase”! How much more cliche and offensive could this movie be? Oh wait, remember how Scott defeats Roxy, his only female adversary, by making her orgasm? Excuse me while I vomit…and then keep watching because I still like the rest of the movie.

Liking problematic things doesn’t make you an asshole. In fact, you can like really problematic things and still be not only a good person, but a good social justice activist (TM)! After all, most texts have some problematic elements in them, because they’re produced by humans, who are well-known to be imperfect. But it can be surprisingly difficult to own up to the problematic things in the media you like, particularly when you feel strongly about it, as many fans do. We need to find a way to enjoy the media we like without hurting other people and marginalised groups. So with that in mind, here are my suggestions for things we should try our darnedest to do as self-confessed fans of problematic stuff.

Firstly, acknowledge that the thing you like is problematic and do not attempt to make excuses for it. It is a unique irritation to encounter a person who point blank refuses to admit that something they like is problematic. Infuriatingly, people will often actually articulate some version of the argument “It can’t be problematic because I like it, and I’m nice”. Alternatively, some fans may find it tempting to argue “Well this media is a realistic portrayal of societies like X, Y, Z”. But when you say that sexism and racism and heterosexism and cissexism have to be in the narrative or the story won’t be realistic, what you are saying is that we humans literally cannot recognise ourselves without systemic prejudice, nor can we connect to characters who are not unrepentant bigots. Um, yikes. YIKES, you guys.

And even if you think that’s true (which scares the hell out of me), I don’t see you arguing for an accurate portrayal of everything in your fiction all the time. For example, most people seem fine without accurate portrayal of what personal hygiene was really like in 1300 CE in their medieval fantasy media. (Newsflash: realistically, Robb Stark and Jon Snow rarely bathed or brushed their teeth or hair). In real life, people have to go to the bathroom. In movies and books, they don’t show that very much, because it’s boring and gross. Well, guess what: bigotry is also boring and gross. But everyone is just dying to keep that in the script.

Especially do not ever suggest that people not take media “so seriously”, or argue that it’s “just” a tv show. The narratives that we surround ourselves with can subtly, subconsciously influence how we think about ourselves and others. That’s why creating imaginary fantasy and sci fi worlds that have more equal societies can be a powerful thing for marginalised people, who mainstream media rarely acknowledges as heroes. But even if you don’t think that media matters, there is still no reason to focus exclusively on unequal or problematic fictional worlds and narratives. If it doesn’t matter, why don’t YOU stop taking your media so seriously and stop fighting us on this? You with your constant demands for your narrow idea of “realism” (which by the way often sounds a lot like “show me naked skinny ciswomen, and gore”). If in your framework tv shows aren’t serious business, why does realism matter? Why can’t you accept that it would be totally cool to have AT LEAST ONE BIG MEDIEVAL FANTASY EPIC WHERE WOMEN AND POC WERE LIKE, EQUAL TO WHITE MEN AND STUFF. STOP TAKING IT SO SERIOUSLY.

Secondly, do not gloss over the issues or derail conversations about the problematic elements. Okay, so you can admit that Dune is problematic. But wait, you’re not done! You need to be willing to engage with people about it! It’s not enough to be like “Ok, I admit that it’s problematic that the major villain is a fat homosexual rapist, but come on, let’s focus on the giant sandworms!”. Shutting people down, ignoring or giving minimal treatment to their concerns, and refusing to fully engage with their issues is a form of oppression. Implicitly, you’re giving the message that this person’s feelings are less important than your own. In fact, in this case you’re saying that their pain is less important than your enjoyment of a book, movie or tv show. So when people raise these concerns, listen respectfully and try to understand the views. Do not change the topic.

Thirdly you must acknowledge other, even less favourable, interpretations of the media you like. Sometimes you still enjoy a movie or book because you read a certain, potentially problematic scene in a certain way – but others read it entirely differently, and found it more problematic. For example, consider the scene in Game of Thrones where Drogo rapes Dany (which he does not do in the books). One of my friends feels that it was portrayed like rape fetish porn, sexualising the act and Dany’s pain. But I feel that the scene focuses on Dany’s pain and tears in a manner that is not fetishising them (though even so the narrative is still totally fucked up because Dany and her rapist then go on to have a good, sexyfuntimes relationship…uh, no, HBO). I don’t agree with my friend’s interpretation but I recognise it as a totally valid reading of the scene.

Also, as a fan of problematic media, you need to respect the fact that others may be so upset or angered by media you love that they don’t want to engage with it at all. In fact, one of my best friends won’t watch HBO’s Game of Thrones because of the racism and misogyny. That’s a completely legitimate and valid response to that tv show, and me trying to convince her to give it another shot would be disrespectful and hurtful. If you badger others to see what you see in something when they are telling you it’s not enjoyable for them, you’re being an entitled jerk. You’re showing yourself to be willing to hurt a real person over a television show. That really is a sign you’re taking things too seriously.

As fans, sometimes we need to remember that the things we like don’t define our worth as people. So there’s no need to defend them from every single criticism or pretend they are perfect. Really loving something means seeing it as it really is, not as you wish it were. You can still be a good fan while acknowledging the problematic elements of the things you love. In fact, that’s the only way to be a good fan of problematic things.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I don't think we should "just ignore her".

When people started threatening and abusing her when she first made her claims, a number of internet communities asked for us "gamers" to make a stand and defend her, as these people were a horrible representation of our industry's following.

Obviously it's far less cool to threaten a woman with rape than it is to believe a game is sexist, but still I don't see why we should just sit back and take this kind of sensationalism.

The two posts about not letting things get "overdone" and keeping things "low-key" are important.
gurudyne, if Sarkeesian says anything half as intelligent as what you just wrote about Faith, I will be pleasantly surprised.

Pretty much. She's demonstrated she's not going to do any of the critiques justice. She doesn't need to be harassed, since that's only going to make her feel more justified, and she certainly doesn't need white knights, they've already given her seven figures.

The best remedy for her problems is obscurity. Give it to her.

On that note... anyone know how to remove subs? I'm a GAF noob, no idea how to do it (doesn't seem to be in thread tools?)

 

[Htown]

Usually when you pay people to do a job you want it to be done well.

I severely doubt any of her critics in this thread donated any money.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Pretty much. She's demonstrated she's not going to do any of the critiques justice. She doesn't need to be harassed, since that's only going to make her feel more justified, and she certainly doesn't need white knights, they've already given her seven figures.

The best remedy for her problems is obscurity. Give it to her.

On that note... anyone know how to remove subs? I'm a GAF noob, no idea how to do it (doesn't seem to be in thread tools?)

Yes clearly she's not going to critique videogames as... well (?)... as they deserve (somehow?) to be critiqued, therefore WE MUST ALL IGNORE THIS WOMAN FOR HER WOMANLY OPINIONS ARE NOT WORTH LISTENING TO.

Oh and hey guys can you help me ignore this thread too?


I'm left wondering exactly how well videogames deserve to be critiqued and why.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Yes clearly she's not going to critique videogames as... well (?)... as they deserve (somehow?) to be critiqued, therefore WE MUST ALL IGNORE THIS WOMAN FOR HER WOMANLY OPINIONS ARE NOT WORTH LISTENING TO.

Oh and hey guys can you help me ignore this thread too?


I'm left wondering exactly how well videogames deserve to be critiqued and why.

Congratulations, you made a strawman!

 

[Kinyou]

Yes. Of course there's no denying that, on the whole, men possess more physical strength than women but we're talking about a game starring a giant bird lion thing. Realism isn't a very good excuse. Plus, I'm not sure that muscle mass is that different between girls and boys before they hit puberty? And finally, if Wander from SotC is anything to go by, no human, male or female, possess the kind of grip strength that's necessary to succeed in a Team Ico game, so it's a little absurd to claim that they were going for realism wrt to gripping strength at all.

Plenty of female rock climbers out there, bro.

Hm, after a short google search I stumbled upon this video. yeah, I guess his grip strength argument doesn't hold up. :/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uatDyctBZok

On the second point, girls are not restricted to wearing skirts so it's an exceedingly odd and retrogressive argument to suggest that you can't have a girl protag because upskirt shots. Just design her with pants, leggings or shorts. A girl could have worn the exact same outfit that the boy is wearing and wouldn't have looked out place (since he's basically wearing a dress w/leggings, an outfit that is far more common for girls to wear than boys anyway).

There I'd say that Team Ico always goes for a quite realistic approach in the way of how the design their character's clothing. They always look like something people actually wore during tribal times. However you're right, when you have some huge lion/eagle thing jumping around no one is seriously going to complain that girls usually wore skirts instead of pants.

 

[Sblargh]

She did an inflamatory tweet to grab attention. If she's right or wrong, well, we can't say because everything she did was an inflamatory tweet to grab attention and those, by definition, can't be argumented against, because it is not an argument, it is an statement. It is like saying "this wall is yellow!" and who knows? Maybe it is.

Does ICO use the damsel in distress trope to tell its story? Ok. It is the OMG MOST SEXIST GAME EVAR? I don't know. I would have to, you know, see the research and the arguments instead of the exciting conclusion just vomited in a package of outrage.

 

[Flame Lord]

I severely doubt any of her critics in this thread donated any money.

I would think that it would be the critics that did donate money. I didn't donate any and I could care less how these videos turn out.

 

[Akainu]

I would think that it would be the critics that did donate money. I didn't donate any and I could care less how these videos turn out.

 

[Zoe]

I would think that it would be the critics that did donate money. I didn't donate any and I could care less how these videos turn out.

Why would the critics donate to someone whom they believe isn't doing a good job?

 

[Margalis]

The idea that certain subject matter is just innately bad and should be off limits is disturbingly narrow-minded.

I would argue that the plot of Ico could be interpreted as the boy thinking it was his duty to attempt to rescue the girl, who humors him knowing that he will inevitably fail. But beyond that, even if you interpret it as "boy saves the girl" there's nothing about that which is innately wrong. It's cool when games purposely play with gender roles but sticking to them is not in itself sexist.

Waaaay too often these kinds of discussions stray into people essentially arguing that giant swaths of the creative landscape should be verboten.

How to be a fan of problematic things

Sorry but when you argue that LOTR is problematic because it's racist against, what, Orcs (?), you've sort of gone of the deep end and into parody.

 

[Flame Lord]

Why would the critics donate to someone whom they believe isn't doing a good job?

Well people who were critics before she got all of her money probably didn't, but it makes sense to me that some people criticing after that tweet may have donate and are upset to think that they're money went toward her buying a bunch of games just so she can says "Oh this game is soooo sexist!" without saying anything else.

 

[Brewster's Wallet]

I feel sorry for her. Having to play through ICO twice. Why would you want to do that? Unless she's an insomniac

 

[Messofanego]

She should do Batman Arkham City next. That'll spur on a lot more people. I love the game, but my god is it a bit leery and sexist with the female characters. After FilmCritHulk's article on it, it changed my perspective and all the female villains or characters made me uneasy.

 

[Sblargh]

She should do Batman Arkham City next. That'll spur on a lot more people. I love the game, but my god is it a bit leery and sexist with the female characters. After FilmCritHulk's article on it, it changed my perspective and all the female villains or characters made me uneasy.

That's a pretty good article. I should read this blog more.

 

[Kinyou]

She should do Batman Arkham City next. That'll spur on a lot more people. I love the game, but my god is it a bit leery and sexist with the female characters. After FilmCritHulk's article on it, it changed my perspective and all the female villains or characters made me uneasy.

I think it's funny that people complain so much about the constant use of "bitch" that they completely miss all those dialogue lines that imply rape.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

I really don't understand how a bunch of thugs being sexist means the game is.

 

[Messofanego]

I really don't understand how a bunch of thugs being sexist means the game is.

Then where are the prison rape lines in relation to what the thugs might do to Batman? Seems a bit off balance.

 

[Kong Fisso]

I really don't understand how a bunch of thugs being sexist means the game is.

Especially when you get to kill them. You're killing sexists. Is a sexist killing simulator sexist in itself? Please tell me, internet bloggers!

 

[Flame Lord]

Then where are the prison rape lines in relation to what the thugs might do to Batman? Seems a bit off balance.

I always got the impression that men in prison don't want to rape other men, but that's all they have. Not to say they all feel that way but I figured most do.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

Then where are the prison rape lines in relation to what the thugs might do to Batman? Seems a bit off balance.

Could you please direct me to the specific comments they make about raping Catwoman and Harley?

 

[Htown]

I really don't understand how a bunch of thugs being sexist means the game is.

Because the developers control every single thing the thugs get to say?

 

[Taruranto]

Ah. Saw her reaction to ICO coming miles away.

So basically: Every female character who needs help = Sexist, no matter the context.

 

[Kinyou]

I really don't understand how a bunch of thugs being sexist means the game is.

Concerning one of the main characters I can only remember one from Arkham Asylum about Harley where the Joker says: "Whoever kills the Batman wins the grand prize: a night out with Harley! I might even tell her...'eh, why bother? It'll be a nice surprise..."

 

[cm osi]

Ah. Saw her reaction to ICO coming miles away.

So basically: Every female character who need help = Sexist, no matter the context.

yes, it was pretty obvious, it seems she can't contextualize at all.
can't wait for catherine comments!

 

[starbunny64]

Ah. Saw her reaction to ICO coming miles away.

So basically: Every female character who need help = Sexist, no matter the context.

And if a male lead needs female help, the game's sexist because it only gives the female character background/support status.

And if a male lead needs a female lead's help, we are only seeing into the character of the male and the female is a one-dimensional "fake" main character who again, is only there for support. If the game delves into the problems of the female and receives male lead help, it's again sexist.

 

[patapuf]

Because the developers control every single thing the thugs get to say?

So, sexist characters shouldn't exist because they refelct badly on the creator? It's not like the insults are implied to be a good thing.

 

[faceless007]

Every predictable, trite response to the accusations of BAC's sexism is deftly handled in FilmCritHulk's article Part 2.