This all stems from the fact that certain games are played primarily by adult males, so the people who make these games, who are males more often than not, lack a strong incentive, and perhaps even the necessary perspective, to create realistic, female protagonists.
Oversimplifying a bit. I wouldn't say inclusion of women (while it might help) is necessarily a salve. A woman wrote Twilight. There isn't too much perspective necessary. Men have written women with depth. It's about not underestimating demographics/intelligence and writing women as people.
Still I don't really get why it's important that a character "gets shit" done. Let's think about "Monkey" from Enslaved. He is an idiot. He gets enslaved by a woman. That's totally against his will. He is actually used as a tool by this woman. And he even finds that okay after a while, although he gets his head blown off, if he gets too far from that woman. "but" he is packed with muscles (something I should think about as a positive? Or I guess I shouldn't even notice all this crap while I'm playing the game). And he is topless - which serves no purpose - in fact it's stupid to be topless (unarmored) in battle. And all this doesn't matter anyway, because he "gets shit done"? As man I should consider this character highly offensive. In fact I don't like that character at all. But why should I complain about his gender? Trip on the other hand - the actually evil female - takes advantage of him - enslaves him - is quite intelligent (definitely much more intelligent than brain-dead "monkey") - and uses tech toys. So in theory this is the exact opposite of games that women complain about, right? And strangely I never read any male gamer complain about Monkey at all. I mean I complain, but I complain about the stupid character, not about his gender. And if we replace the genders of those 2 characters, all the gender-based critic would work perfectly. Trip would be hot and sexualized and dumb and the slave of the player character.
Oversimplifying a bit. I wouldn't say inclusion of women (while it might help) is necessarily a salve. A woman wrote Twilight. There isn't too much perspective necessary. Men have written women with depth. It's about not underestimating demographics/intelligence and writing women as people.
Did you like Alex Vance's portrayal in the Half Life 2 series? I Think she was probably the best I've seen so far. She was never in anything skimpy, seemed strong and Independent and got a lot done on her own. I can't see a fault in how they portrayed her(but I don't critique this as harshly as some.)
Oversimplifying a bit. I wouldn't say inclusion of women (while it might help) is necessarily a salve. A woman wrote Twilight. There isn't too much perspective necessary. Men have written women with depth. It's about not underestimating demographics/intelligence and writing women as people.
Why do game developers tend to underestimate demographics/intelligence and struggle to write women as people? Obviously, it's a reflection of the sexism that pervades society as a whole, but is there a more informative explanation?
Yup. I won't deny there are legitimate complaints in this thread, but there's a point where I stop and think "Some people are seriously over-thinking this shit."
Did you like Alex Vance's portrayal in the Half Life 2 series? I Think she was probably the best I've seen so far. She was never in anything skimpy, seemed strong and Independent and got a lot done on her own. I can't see a fault in how they portrayed her(but I don't critique this as harshly as some.)
There are definitely characters that exist that are pretty well rounded. They should just make more of them. The fact that they already exist like Alex is a testament to how it's possible.
Why do game developers tend to underestimate demographics/intelligence and struggle to write women as people? Obviously, it's a reflection of the sexism that pervades society as a whole, but is there a more informative explanation?
I'm not really sure honestly. I think it has to do with stereotyping young men unfairly and what they "desire" to see. And it wouldn't be a big deal, again, if not for the frequency involved.
Who said everyone is okay playing with a stupid male that gets shit done? No one is saying that, they're only saying that male characters have OTHER redeeming qualities that makes a stupid character easier to overlook.
That's my whole point.
Money doesn't have any redeeming qualities at all. He is stupid. He got enslaved by a woman. And he even starts being nice to that woman, which makes him even more stupid (or Stockholm syndrome'd).
Not to mention that there are a lot of alternatives to find for males besides the blow shit up stereotype. 80-90%of female characters are used as sex objects only.
Where is that percentage from?
Maybe I'm playing the "wrong" (or actually better) games. Most of my games don't even have female characters in them (or humans at all). And if there are, they are not sex objects in most of them. Or maybe I don't see them in some games as sex objects, where as others would see them that way. Idk.
I mean for example Rosalina in SMG. Can't see her as sex object. Sex object would mean that they are totally useless in the game, which is normally not the case. One of the few games with women as real sex objects that I can think of is God Of War.
Just because you can name an example as a female character that you think is well portrayed, it doesn't mean we can pack in and go home. The decent examples are no where near the amount of quantity of the terrible examples out there. You can count the good examples on one hand (okay, maybe two or three hands).
I would say many more hands. Some pages ago, I just listed the ones that came into my mind from the last few years. It also depends on what you are going for. The ones that I listed were handled really well and that is quite rare in any case. Male characters are written horrible as well.
Just a few from more than 15 years ago:
Princess Rosella from King's Quest series
Maybe also Passionate Patti - she uses her sex appeal to get what she wants and is also quite intelligent (especially when being compared to Larry) - Leisure Suit Larry series
Sophia Hapgood from Indiana Jones Fate of Atlantis
Laura Bow from Colonel's Bequest and Dagger of Amon Ra
Elaine Marley from Monkey Island series
Maggie Robbins and Cora Miles from The Dig
(all of those are even playable)
Then another one from current times: Alexandra Roivas from Eternal Darkness (playable too)
Catherine Willows and Sara Sidle from CSI series (yes, that's kinda cheating)
EDIT: Ada Wong from Resident Evil 4 (sexy, yes, but not a sex object, see below)
Saying that there are just a handful of good examples is just hyperbole, because there are so many games out there and especially adventure games (where it matters) are full of well written characters (and especially not sex objects, because it wouldn't make sense at all). If you just check the latest AAA FPS/TPS games, then of course you are going to find many duds, but that's expected. I mean would you expect a well written character in a Michael Bay movie? I sure wouldn't. And just because such movies are popular because of the dumb masses doesn't mean that there aren't proper movies out there.
Hell, even Princess Peach is acting against the cliches in the Paper Mario series.
The example with Enslaved is a good one. I can see males not liking a manipulative witch who uses the guy as a slave. Can you name me more examples similar to this? Because I don't see many examples where this happend. I can guarantee you if 90% of the games had this you will have guys complain to death about it. Because it's such a rare occurrence, it is seen as different take that can be considered as a one-time experiment. You're lucky you can name rare examples.
Like I said - before a few hours ago, I never even thought about Monkey's gender. That's also my point. At least I never thought of him as "being a male and I'm a male, hey wait a minute...". I just saw him as badly written and not behaving logically.
It's exactly the same as with other game characters. I don't see them as "the woman" or "the man". I see them as characters. I complain about them badly written, not about their gender.
EDIT: just found another example. RE4. Yes, seriously. When you play it as Leon, you feel like a badass. Then you play the extra scenario as Ada and from that view, Leon looks like a stupid person. In the actual main game
Ada tricks Leon as well and sort of uses him to get what she wants
Or maybe another example: Broken Sword series - George Stobbart does all sorts of stupid things, Nicole Collard is the one that acts in a more intelligent way.
But like I said - noone cares, because noone sees those things as gender-specific. Leon looks like a stupid person? Not a problem for me, because I don't identify myself with him based on the gender. I actually found it pretty funny from that angle.
No but that it's made with that idea in mind because it's certainly not designed for women. We as a demographic get ignored. That's another problem with the industry.
Well, maybe Chris's skins ARE meant for women (but don't work out). Especially the one I posted can't be meant for men (at least not for me). Well, maybe gay men.
Nathan Drake is surely designed with women wishes in mind, no? Character creation is not possible for most games, although in games like Saints Row 2+3 it's possible that you can choose gender and even fully customize weight (which is even more rare in games especially for female gender - for example the old republic doesn't allow heavy weight females, but heavy weight males, go figure).
Why do game developers tend to underestimate demographics/intelligence and struggle to write women as people? Obviously, it's a reflection of the sexism that pervades society as a whole, but is there a more informative explanation?
Do you or the people like you making these arguments realize what a male power fantasy is? Because there is a definite disconnect happening in this thread when it comes to sexual objectification and power fantasies.
Have you SEEN Chris Redfield fan art since RE5 came out?
The purpose of my post though was to try to steer the male portrayal discussion away from power fantasies and try to find examples of sexual fantasies that could've been aimed at women. It is... difficult in the environment of GAF.
Why do game developers tend to underestimate demographics/intelligence and struggle to write women as people? Obviously, it's a reflection of the sexism that pervades society as a whole, but is there a more informative explanation?
It's probably just not important to their success to write women in that way. I wouldn't blame it on sexism. It's a business and they have priorities and I dont see how writing women would honestly be a high priority unless there's an early commitment to do so because they are important to the games overall plot. But even that doesnt have a lot of positive stand out precendents compared to the stereotypes when looking at the main games people are playing. Just sayin.
It's exactly the same as with other game characters. I don't see them as "the woman" or "the man". I see them as characters. I complain about them badly written, not about their gender.
That's really my take on the whole issue. Videogame characters are very poorly developed, shallow characters, because they're in a medium that tells very poor, shallow stories, or sometimes none at all. I'd say the problem of how awful the characters are is often magnified in the female cast, and that's a symptom of the very male appeal of the industry since its beginnings, but I'd still call it a sub-set of a larger issue with all characters.
Did you like Alex Vance's portrayal in the Half Life 2 series? I Think she was probably the best I've seen so far. She was never in anything skimpy, seemed strong and Independent and got a lot done on her own. I can't see a fault in how they portrayed her(but I don't critique this as harshly as some.)
She does inexplicably fall in love with someone she's never had a conversation with but that's probably not so much gender politics as trying to marry a story with presentation choices.
Most games are marketed towards young adult males. They're a dependable market that's easy to cater to. Publishers are risk adverse, so they'll naturally target markets they know exist.
In order for things to get better in video games, developers need to make games that cater to women and try to expand beyond the established audience. Nintendo makes games with mass appeal and they tend to attract a far more varied demographic, but I haven't seen developers try to attract women specifically, and the only way I can see those kinds of games happening is if more women get into game development.
I personally think a lot of money is being left on the table when publishers continue chasing after the same audience over and over. It's best to reduce resistance (getting rid of negative gender stereotypes) and get more girls into gaming. Gaming is unique with its player agency and interactivity. I'd hate to see it be held back by issues that shouldn't even exist in this day and age.
She does inexplicably fall in love with someone she's never had a conversation with but that's probably not so much gender politics as trying to marry a story with presentation choices.
Why do game developers tend to underestimate demographics/intelligence and struggle to write women as people? Obviously, it's a reflection of the sexism that pervades society as a whole, but is there a more informative explanation?
There's actually a recent piece called Writing Across Gender that speaks to this somewhat. Not sure if it was brought up already in the thread, but I was linked to it today and found it to be a short but interesting read.
Jennifer duBois said:
I don’t think it’s terribly controversial to note that women, from a young age, are required to consider the reality of the opposite gender’s consciousness in a way that men aren’t. This isn’t to say that women don’t often misunderstand, mistreat, and stereotype men, both in literature and in life. But on a basic level, functioning in society requires that women register that men are fully conscious; it is not really possible for a woman to throw up her hands and write men off as eternally unknowable space aliens — and even if she says she has, she cannot really behave as though she has. Every element of her life — from reading books about boys and men to writing papers about the motivations of male characters to being attentive to her own safety to navigating most any institutional or professional or economic sphere — demands an ironclad familiarity with, and belief in, the idea that men really are fully human entities. And no matter how many men come to the same conclusions about women, the structure of society simply does not demand so strenuously that they do so. If you didn’t really deep down believe that women were, in general, exactly as conscious as you, you could probably still get by in life. You could probably still get a book deal. You could probably still get elected to office.
This discrepancy plays out in fiction, where it fuels a literary cycle which is both a cause and a consequence of the broader issue. Girls, alongside the variety of other ways in which they're confronting the reality of male consciousness, read and write papers about Huck and then Holden and then Jake Barnes. In doing so, they learn that male minds, like female minds, are complicated and weird and worthy of attention. Adult female readers then will often voluntarily read books by and about both men and women, whereas male readers will overwhelmingly, though of course not exclusively, read books by and about men. And female writers will often also voluntarily write books populated by both men and women. (If they don't, they will have to be ever-mindful of the possibility of being understood as writers of "women's fiction" — meaning fiction for women only.)
Did you like Alex Vance's portrayal in the Half Life 2 series? I Think she was probably the best I've seen so far. She was never in anything skimpy, seemed strong and Independent and got a lot done on her own. I can't see a fault in how they portrayed her(but I don't critique this as harshly as some.)
That's my whole point.
Money doesn't have any redeeming qualities at all. He is stupid. He got enslaved by a woman. And he even starts being nice to that woman, which makes him even more stupid (or Stockholm syndrome'd).
Where is that percentage from?
Maybe I'm playing the "wrong" (or actually better) games. Most of my games don't even have female characters in them (or humans at all). And if there are, they are not sex objects in most of them. Or maybe I don't see them in some games as sex objects, where as others would see them that way. Idk.
I mean for example Rosalina in SMG. Can't see her as sex object. Sex object would mean that they are totally useless in the game, which is normally not the case. One of the few games with women as real sex objects that I can think of is God Of War.
I would say many more hands. Some pages ago, I just listed the ones that came into my mind from the last few years. It also depends on what you are going for. The ones that I listed were handled really well and that is quite rare in any case. Male characters are written horrible as well.
Just a few from more than 15 years ago:
Princess Rosella from King's Quest series
Maybe also Passionate Patti - she uses her sex appeal to get what she wants and is also quite intelligent (especially when being compared to Larry) - Leisure Suit Larry series
Sophia Hapgood from Indiana Jones Fate of Atlantis
Laura Bow from Colonel's Bequest and Dagger of Amon Ra
Elaine Marley from Monkey Island series
Maggie Robbins and Cora Miles from The Dig
(all of those are even playable)
Then another one from current times: Alexandra Roivas from Eternal Darkness (playable too)
Catherine Willows and Sara Sidle from CSI series (yes, that's kinda cheating)
Saying that there are just a handful of good examples is just hyperbole, because there are so many games out there and especially adventure games (where it matters) are full of well written characters (and especially not sex objects, because it wouldn't make sense at all). If you just check the latest AAA FPS/TPS games, then of course you are going to find many duds, but that's expected. I mean would you expect a well written character in a Michael Bay movie? I sure wouldn't. And just because such movies are popular because of the dumb masses doesn't mean that there aren't proper movies out there.
Hell, even Princess Peach is acting against the cliches in the Paper Mario series.
Like I said - before a few hours ago, I never even thought about Monkey's gender. That's also my point. At least I never thought of him as "being a male and I'm a male, hey wait a minute...". I just saw him as badly written and not behaving logically.
It's exactly the same as with other game characters. I don't see them as "the woman" or "the man". I see them as characters. I complain about them badly written, not about their gender.
I assume you're talking about monkey? I wasn't talking about him, it was more in general. You keep throwing this example at me, when I'm telling you you have the right idea and the right example. Yet it is the only example of this kind.
That percentage is just made up. It might be exaggerated, but it doesn't feel far-fetched. I wouldn't be surprised if the real percentage is close to that. I only need to name fighting games that have character rosters where females are only being used as sex objects for instance.
It sounds to me you and I play entirely different games, maybe on different platforms even. I am mostly brought up on consoles and handhelds starting with the ps1.
I'm guessing the games you're naming are PC games? I can't comment on them since I don't know any of them. I only know and played Eternal Darkness with its 12 playable characters.
So tell me, what is your problem exactly and what are you trying to prove? Sure you can find more than enough examples that you can count on three hands. Sure it can sound like an exaggeration on my part, but do you know where I'm getting at? Don't you see it's not that far-fetched at all?
I understand the other point you're trying to make, that it's common to have characters to be badly written in games, not just females. But that's a different point, we should start a thread about writing in games.
This thread is about how women are presented and for who. Can you agree that the gaming industry caters to males mostly and have most games revolve around them, even the portrayal of women? That's the problem right here.
I'm not the type to look at this as, he's a male, she's is a female, I'll ignore the male portion and focus on what they've done with a female. I play most games with males as lead and enjoy them, never questioned why they're male and also think to myself how badly they're written sometimes.
At some point, this won't be enough to carry on like that. I'd like to have females served or at least not singled out. And that is awareness on a mainstream level, you tell me 'I mean would you expect a well written character in a Michael Bay movie?', but what if all games strive to be Michael Bay movies male edition?
Maybe you never got to think about gender yourself because you weren't pushed away? Maybe you didn't have to face that thought because you wasn't presented with a gender-problem?
Btw, you have a well written reply but it feels like we're looking at different problems.
Most games are marketed towards young adult males. They're a dependable market that's easy to cater to. Publishers are risk adverse, so they'll naturally target markets they know exist.
In order for things to get better in video games, developers need to make games that cater to women and try to expand beyond the established audience. Nintendo makes games with mass appeal and they tend to attract a far more varied demographic, but I haven't seen developers try to attract women specifically, and the only way I can see those kinds of games happening is if more women get into game development.
I personally think a lot of money is being left on the table when publishers continue chasing after the same audience over and over. It's best to reduce resistance (getting rid of negative gender stereotypes) and get more girls into gaming. Gaming is unique with its player agency and interactivity. I'd hate to see it be held back by issues that shouldn't even exist in this day and age.
I don't like the phrase "make games that cater to women." A poster earlier brought up a good point about "pink ghettos." The games don't need to appeal to what they think women want. I like adventure games, I like shoot 'em ups, I like RPGS. I'm not asking for a game specifically catered to my gender, I'm asking for better female representation and less tropes. They are not the same thing. The idea that better written women leads/secondary characters and less sexualization is "catering to women" is the problem in a nutshell. That it's only us who want or enjoy it.
I don't like the phrase "make games that cater to women." A poster earlier brought up a good point about "pink ghettos." The games don't need to appeal to what they think women want. I like adventure games, I like shoot 'em ups, I like RPGS. I'm not asking for a game specifically catered to my gender, I'm asking for better female representation and less tropes. They are not the same thing. The idea that better written women leads/secondary characters and less sexualization is "catering to women" is the problem in a nutshell. That it's only us who want or enjoy it.
This cannot be emphasized enough. People in this thread continue to confuse "Make it less blatantly offensive and tasteless," with "MAKE EVERYTHING INTO A PC FEMTOPIA!!!1"
This cannot be emphasized enough. People in this thread continue to confuse "Make it less blatantly offensive and tasteless," with "MAKE EVERYTHING INTO A PC FEMTOPIA!!!1"
I also understand the desire to focus on gameplay but there are conscious decisions being made to portray women like shit. So that's just another straw man I see that comes up. Not to mention some games could still be sex, blood and rock n roll just up the frequency of the anti-thesis? What's so wrong with that? The amount of backlash at desiring women to be something other than ornaments is always depressing.
I'd cite Poe's law, but I'm still kind of reeling from the insinuation that sexism in media is some kind of retaliation rather than just the status quo.
I also understand the desire to focus on gameplay but there are conscious decisions being made to portray women like shit. So that's just another straw man I see that comes up. Not to mention some games could still be sex, blood and rock n roll just up the frequency of the anti-thesis? What's so wrong with that? The amount of backlash at desiring women to be something other than ornaments is always depressing.
It smacks of a manchild DM insisting that female characters receive strength penalties and get treated badly in D&D because "that's how it was in the middle ages."
I'd cite Poe's law, but I'm still kind of reeling from the insinuation that sexism in media is some kind of retaliation rather than just the status quo.
The simple act of bringing it up again and again is helpful in itself because the biggest problem where sexism/misogyny is concerned, I feel, is lack of awareness that it's a real problem.
Back to the Hitman promo reel debacle, the creators of the video saying straight up that they were surprised by the backlash and had only thought they were making "something cool"; I figure a great deal of the sexist portrayals of women coming out of studios isn't the result of any kind of malice or bigotry, it's the result of absolute cluelessness, total lack of social awareness, gob-stopping boneheadedness. This is something that can be combated by simply talking about it, and sure, I understand conversation after conversation about sexism and misogyny can be tiresome. But you know what's even more tiresome? Being forced to put up with actual sexism and misogyny.
I'd cite Poe's law, but I'm still kind of reeling from the insinuation that sexism in media is some kind of retaliation rather than just the status quo.
It smacks of a manchild DM insisting that female characters receive strength penalties and get treated badly in D&D because "that's how it was in the middle ages."
The simple act of bringing it up again and again is helpful in itself because the biggest problem where sexism/misogyny is concerned, I feel, is lack of awareness that it's a real problem.
Back to the Hitman promo reel debacle, the creators of the video saying straight up that they were surprised by the backlash and had only thought they were making "something cool"; I figure a great deal of the sexist portrayals of women coming out of studios isn't the result of any kind of malice or bigotry, it's the result of absolute cluelessness, total lack of social awareness, gob-stopping boneheadedness. This is something that can be combated by simply talking about it, and sure, I understand conversation after conversation about sexism and misogyny can be tiresome. But you know what's even more tiresome? Being forced to put up with actual sexism and misogyny.
I'm not trying to imply that it shouldn't be discussed I guess. Nothing wrong with that, I just never seem to notice any changes. I'm not sure I honestly believe that IO didn't expect some negative feedback regarding that trailer. I think it did exactly what they wanted it to do, it got people talking about the game. The Hitman series has always been extreme, nothing that was in that trailer hasn't been in the series previously for the most part (save for RPGs I guess), just play through Contracts. I have to admit though, I like that the Hitman series is full of extremities and I don't really want it to change.
With all that said, the trailer was pretty dumb. Not, in my opinion, because of the latex nuns, but because it was just a bad trailer. I do however understand why some people might be put off by the female assassins in the trailer.
Sexually appealing isn't the problem, which AM and some others have mentioned plenty. The problem is frequency. The problem is this being the norm. The problem is characters that have depth and aren't sexual aren't numerous enough. Sexy is fine if it's not the overwhelming majority and the pinnacle of a character.
The reason I mentioned Poe's law is because that joke was more or less identical to things people have said [b]and meant[/b] elsewhere in this thread.[/QUOTE]
Yes. If men can't enjoy some escapist eye candy it would be hypocritical of me to do the same. My issue is with the frequency not the fact that it exists in the first place. It's the same reason I don't have issues with porn or strip clubs. If people want to objectify what they find attractive that's fine. My issue is how characters in games that are not say strippers or pornstars are normalized to be sexual items rather than people who forward a narrative.
Yes. If men can't enjoy some escapist eye candy it would be hypocritical of me to do the same. My issue is with the frequency not the fact that it exists in the first place. It's the same reason I don't have issues with porn or strip clubs. If people want to objectify what they find attractive that's fine. My issue is how characters in games that are not say strippers or pornstars are normalized to be sexual items rather than people who forward a narrative.
See why people, for the most part, aren't complaining about Bayonetta, or Lollipop Chainsaw, or the prostitutes in GTA, but about Samus in Other M or Lara Croft in the new Tomb Raider.
Nobody wants to ban anything here. I honestly just wish that the male protagonist stereotype (the 30 somethings short haired guy) had a somewhat common female equivalent.
Yes. If men can't enjoy some escapist eye candy it would be hypocritical of me to do the same. My issue is with the frequency not the fact that it exists in the first place. It's the same reason I don't have issues with porn or strip clubs. If people want to objectify what they find attractive that's fine. My issue is how characters in games that are not say strippers or pornstars are normalized to be sexual items rather than people who forward a narrative.
I understand that but that also seems unfair for the developers too. They should be hated now for their eye candy but say in 5-10 years and video game writing is better it would have been ok? I understand where you're coming fair, it just feels unfair to come down on the developers then.
See why people, for the most part, aren't complaining about Bayonetta, or Lollipop Chainsaw, or the prostitutes in GTA, but about Samus in Other M or Lara Croft in the new Tomb Raider.
Nobody wants to ban anything here. I honestly just wish that the male protagonist stereotype (the 30 somethings short haired guy) had a somewhat common female equivalent.
I very rarely read the entirety of long threads :S
With Other M though, did anyone really take that seriously? I was under the impression that everyone thought it was pretty damn stupid and just left it at that. I don't think there will ever be another Other M-esque Samus.
Can't comment on the new Tomb Raider, not all that interested in those games.
Nobody wants to ban anything here. I honestly just wish that the male protagonist stereotype (the 30 somethings short haired guy) had a somewhat common female equivalent.
If that stereotype has to do with fighting for good causes, saying cool one-liners, and blowing up lots of dudes, we should start with a Burn Notice spinoff game where you play as Fiona Glenanne.
If that stereotype has to do with fighting for good causes, saying cool one-liners, and blowing up lots of dudes, we should start with a Burn Notice spinoff game where you play as Fiona Glenanne.
Samus in Other M wa- Hm. At this point I've typed this too many times.
...
Fuck it:
More put towards male anime tropes and was quite strong throughout the story. The story was badly written, yes, but I argue that it had more to do with her being a hero similar to male anime characters. Were her character to be based off of female anime tropes... let's put it this way, it would be sexist on new levels. I argue culture difference.
I don't like the phrase "make games that cater to women." A poster earlier brought up a good point about "pink ghettos." The games don't need to appeal to what they think women want. I like adventure games, I like shoot 'em ups, I like RPGS. I'm not asking for a game specifically catered to my gender, I'm asking for better female representation and less tropes. They are not the same thing. The idea that better written women leads/secondary characters and less sexualization is "catering to women" is the problem in a nutshell. That it's only us who want or enjoy it.
If that stereotype has to do with fighting for good causes, saying cool one-liners, and blowing up lots of dudes, we should start with a Burn Notice spinoff game where you play as Fiona Glenanne.
