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Tropes versus Women in Video Games

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Akainu said:
I just tried it and yes clicking shows the spoiler. I usually highlight it.
Click to expand...

I don't know what it is, but it's mouse over for me.
It was click/highlight weeks ago, before i had the dark skin, but i'm not saying it's necessarily related to it.
You're gonna have to take my word for it as i don't want to do a video about it.
Anyway, carry on.
 
plagiarize said:
Alice: Madness Returns is probably the best example I can think of, of a game written by a man that goes against pretty much all the negative, cliched, stereotypes. Alice's character design is attractive but in no way sexualised. she is not defined by her relationships with men. we explore her personality (and solve her problems) by delving into her subconciousness (which SHOCK! isn't remotely drawn with such cliched brushstrokes as repressed sexuality), and HUGE SPOILER
the entire game is her resisting being sexualised by her psychiatrist who wants to turn her into a child prostitute.

it's also a great game.

as i've said before, a wider variety of main characters can only be a good thing, giving us more choice and variety in the kinds of stories we can play through.
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Isn't that the plot for Sucker Punch?
 
shuri said:
[IM G]http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Features/2011/04/Mortal%20Kombat%20Week/History%20of%20MK/Finished/041311_historyofMK_obs07--article_image.jpg[/IMG]

The original Sonya Blade was a great character. Former army, joined the tournament to avenge her friend killed by Kano. She could kick-ass, break necks and was not exploited for the babe factor. Even if they replaced the actress for MK3 for a playboy girl, she was still very respectable and not over the top

The newer 3D mk kinda went over the top cheesy; but her original look was awesome. She was based on Cynthia Rothrock too originally
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Dude, Sonya Blade was totally in it for the babe factor.
 
I'm just.... there are no words.


I'm now picturing some dude sitting at his computer thinking "Man, what cause shall I donate to? Cancer research? MS? Child poverty? Food not bombs? Japan earthquake? Haiti? Syria? Autism? First nations education? Child's play? Oh wait, what's this? A girl wants to talk about video games? On the internet? Eureka! Take my money! Take it!"
 
Dylan said:
I'm now picturing some dude sitting at his computer thinking "Man, what cause shall I donate to? Cancer research? MS? Child poverty? Food not bombs? Japan earthquake? Haiti? Syria? Autism? First nations education? Child's play? Oh wait, what's this? A girl wants to talk about video games? On the internet? Eureka! Take my money! Take it!"
Click to expand...

Whether or not this is a worthwhile endeavor, you do realize this is a terrible argument, right? You could apply it to literally anything people spend money on. "Um, you know that there are starving Africans, right? But sure, go ahead. Buy your disposable video game, asshole."
 
Steve Youngblood said:
Whether or not this is a worthwhile endeavor, you do realize this is a terrible argument, right? You could apply it to literally anything people spend money on. "Um, you know that there are starving Africans, right? But sure, go ahead. Buy your disposable video game, asshole."
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It wasn't an argument, it was just an image sitting in my head as I quietly wept for humanity.
 
Dylan said:
I'm just.... there are no words.


I'm now picturing some dude sitting at his computer thinking "Man, what cause shall I donate to? Cancer research? MS? Child poverty? Food not bombs? Japan earthquake? Haiti? Syria? Autism? First nations education? Child's play? Oh wait, what's this? A girl wants to talk about video games? On the internet? Eureka! Take my money! Take it!"
Click to expand...
Can't knock a good hustle.
 
Dylan said:
It wasn't an argument, it was just an image sitting in my head as I quietly wept for humanity.
Click to expand...

I don't know why it makes you weep for humanity. People spend money on lots of things. Sometimes, it's for something noble. Sometimes, it's for something selfish. Sometimes, on something stupid and shortsighted. Sometimes, it's for... eh, I'll stop here. I think you get the point.

I'm just saying, someone doesn't have to feel that an endeavor is right up there with curing cancer to think it's worth donating to. I think that's pretty obvious.
 
Billiechu said:
Quietly? Whining on a message board about how sexism isn't a big deal is being quiet?
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Relatively yes. I mean, it's much quieter than say, starting a video blog. Which I am now considering seeing how it seems to pay more than my current job.

Kickstart: "Actual issues versus inane discussion on the internet"
 
Steve Youngblood said:
I don't know why it makes you weep for humanity. People spend money on lots of things. Sometimes, it's for something noble. Sometimes, it's for something selfish. Sometimes, on something stupid and shortsighted. Sometimes, it's for... eh, I'll stop here. I think you get the point.

I'm just saying, someone doesn't have to feel that an endeavor is right up there with curing cancer to think it's worth donating to. I think that's pretty obvious.
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I do see your point and I do agree with it, but at the same time, many things cause me to weep for humanity. This being one of them.
 
Dylan said:
Relatively yes. I mean, it's much quieter than say, starting a video blog. Which I am now considering seeing how it seems to pay more than my current job.

Kickstart: "Actual issues versus inane discussion on the internet"
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I don't understand.

If this is a stupid topic unworthy of anyone's time or attention, why are you dedicating so much energy to responding in this thread when you could be volunteering somewhere?
 
Dylan said:
Relatively yes. I mean, it's much quieter than say, starting a video blog. Which I am now considering seeing how it seems to pay more than my current job.

Kickstart: "Actual issues versus inane discussion on the internet"
Click to expand...

It's about time someone shined a light on "actual issues." Based on your earlier alternative donation ideas, I can only assume that you'll bring these concerns back to the forefront where they belong. You really don't hear a lot about cancer these days, you know?
 
Dylan said:
Relatively yes. I mean, it's much quieter than say, starting a video blog. Which I am now considering seeing how it seems to pay more than my current job.

Kickstart: "Actual issues versus inane discussion on the internet"
Click to expand...
I'm just a stupid little girl so thank you for telling me how to live my life
 
Dylan said:
Relatively yes. I mean, it's much quieter than say, starting a video blog. Which I am now considering seeing how it seems to pay more than my current job.

Kickstart: "Actual issues versus inane discussion on the internet"
Click to expand...

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/complete.html#moreimportantly

Really an awesome site, don't you think.

Saaaay, it seems people actually do care about the treatment of women in videogames. Who could have thought.
 
stupei said:
I don't understand.

If this is a stupid topic unworthy of anyone's time or attention, why are you dedicating so much energy to responding in this thread when you could be volunteering somewhere?
Click to expand...

I'm still trying to figure out how he's talking to us, surely he wouldn't waste his money to buy a computer or pay for internet over donating to those important issues he highlighted and a job would just be wasted time he could be spending at the soup kitchens.
 
The Anti-Monitor said:
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/complete.html#moreimportantly

Really an awesome site, don't you think.

Saaaay, it seems people actually do care about the treatment of women in videogames. Who could have thought.
Click to expand...

I've been meaning to look for that site! Thanks for the link.



Dr.Palutena said:
I'm still trying to figure out how he's talking to us, surely he wouldn't waste his money to buy a computer or pay for internet over donating to those important issues he highlighted and a job would just be wasted time he could be spending at the soup kitchens.
Click to expand...

It's only bad when you're discussing less important social issues. of course, you dummy.
Spending money and talking about entertainment, games and other stuff that doesn't matter is "fine", because it's not an issue.

But if you talk about issues, you're only allowed to talk about issues other people deem more important.

It's pretty easy to understand.
 
I don't see what is worth getting angry about. People are interested enough in what this woman can say about video games enough to give her money and not interested in what you have to say even though you are giving your pearls of wisdom away for free. So what. Get over it princess.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
It's about time someone shined a light on "actual issues." Based on your earlier alternative donation ideas, I can only assume that you'll bring these concerns back to the forefront where they belong. You really don't hear a lot about cancer these days, you know?
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ah Steve, it's one of those people i was talking about yesterday Steve! the, 'this other problem is arguably bigger, so that magically stops the problem you are talking about being a problem' type. very similar to the 'we will never be able to completely solve this problem so we should never look to improve the way things are.' and the 'things are much better than they used to be, go back thirty years to see how good you have it' types.
 
plagiarize said:
ah Steve, it's one of those people i was talking about yesterday Steve! the, 'this other problem is arguably bigger, so that magically stops the problem you are talking about being a problem' type. very similar to the 'we will never be able to completely solve this problem so we should never look to improve the way things are.' and the 'things are much better than they used to be, go back thirty years to see how good you have it' types.
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I think you're trying way too hard to find a logical inconsistency that really isn't there.
 
i wish every 'white priviledged straight male' could experience what it's like to be 'othered' because then shit like this wouldn't fly. i was fortunate to go most of my life before i started getting 'othered' so i know what it's like on the other side of the 'white priveledged straight male' fence. it didn't take much 'othering' at all to allow me to truly empathise with people much more seriously and regularly 'othered'.

we're all others really. there is no 'normal' and there should be no 'default character' in any kind of story. the characters that do not fit that default should not be defined by the ways they differ from that default. doing this would make fiction better for everyone. it's just about 'right' and 'fair' and other things that can be belittled by saying then in a whiny voice... it's about exploring all the thousands upon thousands of different types of people, rather than just telling the same three or four stories again and again and again.
 
Dylan said:
I'm just.... there are no words.


I'm now picturing some dude sitting at his computer thinking "Man, what cause shall I donate to? Cancer research? MS? Child poverty? Food not bombs? Japan earthquake? Haiti? Syria? Autism? First nations education? Child's play? Oh wait, what's this? A girl wants to talk about video games? On the internet? Eureka! Take my money! Take it!"
Click to expand...

Man, you could seriously not sound more condescending if you tried.

I'm not donating to the project myself, but I don't see how giving money to a documentary highlighting a specific social issue in the video game industry is this ridiculous awful thing and that anyone who donates money to it is a worthwhile excuse to "weep for humanity." I mean, have you seen some of the other stuff that gets promoted on Kickstarter? This whole time you haven't even really explained why it bothers you so much or why you feel such an urge to demean anyone who supports this project. The "you could be giving money to starving children in Africa!" excuse is a load of crap and you know it.

Also, out of curiosity, are you just anti-Kickstarter in general? Or have you given money to one before?
 
plagiarize said:
i wish every 'white priviledged straight male' could experience what it's like to be 'othered' because then shit like this wouldn't fly. i was fortunate to go most of my life before i started getting 'othered' so i know what it's like on the other side of the 'white priveledged straight male' fence. it didn't take much 'othering' at all to allow me to truly empathise with people much more seriously and regularly 'othered'.

we're all others really. there is no 'normal' and there should be no 'default character' in any kind of story. the characters that do not fit that default should not be defined by the ways they differ from that default. doing this would make fiction better for everyone. it's just about 'right' and 'fair' and other things that can be belittled by saying then in a whiny voice... it's about exploring all the thousands upon thousands of different types of people, rather than just telling the same three or four stories again and again and again.
Click to expand...

Does being told we're all shit for being straight white males count?
 
LuchaShaq said:
This a thousand times.

If you ignore well written/nonsexual or well written/sexual but not only sexual female characters this generation it's your own fault.

Just off the top of my head from things I've personally played or seen my girlfriend play in the last 6 months or so.

Ezio's sister doesn't get enough screen time but is a bad ass. Nothing sexual about her that I can remember.

In the same game the Pantasilea Baglioni is pretty awesome as well in the handful of scenes where she tells you to keep an eye on her crazy (in a good way) husband.

In Red Dead

Marston's wife is awesome, she used to be a prostitute but she is never in skimpy outfits or performing her old job in the game. She is just a tough s.o.b.

Louisa the fighter from Mexico, not sexual at all from what I recall.

Bonnie McFarland is one of my favorite side characters of any sort and is not sexualized at all. There is a clearly a "thing" between her and Marston that isn't possible due to his wife/honor and the super subtle word choices/body language in these interactions are fucking amazing. It's hard in tv/movies for this sort of flirtation to avoid the easy/cheap sexual tension but for it to be pulled off so well in a game was frankly shocking to me.

GTA4

The super violent female drug dealer.
Kate
Roman's girlfriend/wife.

Don't think I saw any of them sexualized except for the creepy taxi guy hitting on Roman's girlfriend in one or two cutscenes.

Mass Effect (series)

Depending on choices made there are some great female characters that admittedly are dressed skimpy to a silly extent but are only sexualized content wise if you intentionally go down that path.

My shepherd never got with Liara or even came close but their friendship was genuine and outside of poor wardrobe choice I never saw her as sexual.

Aria T'loak. Again an asari so bioware sexed them up visually but story wise she is simply a bad ass gangster/warlord type.

Dragon Age 2

Aveline the warrior woman who is a party member.
Hawke's sister.

Neither are amazing characters but I don't remember anything sexual about them.

Gears (series)

Anya/Sam.

Halo (series)

Cortana (to be fair she isn't a physical woman)


I know I'm missing a ton but these are some of the biggest franchises/best selling/best reviewed games of recent years and just off the top of my head. To act like non sexual important female characters don't exist/are crazy rare is simply unfair.
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Good examples, but you also bring up another one of my issues

Why is what she's wearing determines whether she's a good female character or not??!

Mass Effect is a perfect example. I remember people complaining about how females where dressed, ignoring the fact that female characters in this series wield ALOT of power and are very influential to the story.

Them wearing tight clothing, lookin sexy ect... shouldn't take away from the role they play in the game, same goes for being sexual.
 
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
Using the typical oppressor tactic of trying to constrain what exactly constitutes discrimination and prejudice.
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i don't hate straight white guys. i just hate straight white guys who claim that being a straight white guy is tough too, when it's not, compared to the shit other people go through. i know this, because i've seen both sides of the fence.

i mean, there are cultures and places where being a straight white guy is tough, but North America, Australiasia, Europe et al are not such places.
 
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
Got ya, only some types of othering count.
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I'm not sure you understanding what othering means. It involves being made to feel apart from, less than, different from what is normative and, you know, other. By its very definition, you cannot other the majority or privileged. It literally isn't possible.
 
stupei said:
I'm not sure you understanding what othering means. It involves being made to feel apart from, less than, different from what is normative and, you know, other. By its very definition, you cannot other the majority or privileged. It literally isn't possible.
Click to expand...

Got ya, black South Africans weren't othered because they were the majority under apartheid. Or is it only privileged people now?
 
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
Got ya, black South Africans weren't othered because they were the majority under apartheid. Or is it only privileged people now?
Click to expand...

you are correct to say they weren't othered. they were discriminated against however, and they were not, by any sense of the word 'priviledged'. see, i knew you wouldn't get past the first level.

othering is a form of discrimination. it is not the ONLY form though.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
Just to be clear, do you think that someone like me -- a straight, white, male -- has the same claim at playing the "hey, we get shit on too!" game as a lot of other demographics?
Click to expand...


What I'm doing here is illustrating the fallacy that people are trying to use by trying to say that one group is immune to discrimination or othering, particular white males, because they're not. Believe it or not they actually understand the concept. Take my case, for instance. I live in a majority black neighborhood of a majority black city, and grew up as a member of a minority religion that was persecuted in the holocaust. I've had racism and religious discrimination directed at me, and I've also had scorn directed at me for marrying a minority. But what everyone wants to do is play this arbitrary game of "But x has it worse and you don't understand" when that's a bunch of flat out bullshit in almost every single case. It's a sweeping generalization and basically completely ignorant.


plagiarize said:
you are correct to say they weren't othered. they were discriminated against however, and they were not, by any sense of the word 'priviledged'. see, i knew you wouldn't get past the first level.

othering is a form of discrimination. it is not the ONLY form though.
Click to expand...

You really don't know what "othering" is. It has nothing to do with majority/minority dynamics whatsoever. It's simple the process of dividing two groups into an "us" and a "them" and then using that to foster insecurity or negative feelings toward another group. It happened all over the apartheid, and it happens in almost every group, majority or minority. By saying "privileged white males" should experience it, you were doing just that. You were painting that group as a "them" that clearly was ignorant to the ill directed toward your group, the "us."
 
Steve Youngblood said:
Just to be clear, do you think that someone like me -- a straight, white, male -- has the same claim at playing the "hey, we get shit on too!" game as a lot of other demographics?
Click to expand...

Depends on your unique situation, really. You could have circumstances or live someplace that makes you, effectively, the minority.
 
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
What I'm doing here is illustrating the fallacy that people are trying to use by trying to say that one group is immune to discrimination or othering, particular white males, because they're not. Believe it or not they actually understand the concept. Take my case, for instance. I live in a majority black neighborhood of a majority black city, and grew up as a member of a minority religion that was persecuted in the holocaust. I've had racism and religious discrimination directed at me, and I've also had scorn directed at me for marrying a minority. But what everyone wants to do is play this arbitrary game of "But x has it worse and you don't understand" when that's a bunch of flat out bullshit in almost every single case. It's a sweeping generalization and basically completely ignorant.
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your lack of empathy is shocking. 'but i have it bad too' is a really awful way of showing empathy. this discrimination that we are talking about exists. to play the 'but i have it bad too' card is doing what? achieving what?

does it stop discrimination in fiction existing? does it change or fix anything? if you've been discriminated against, why wouldn't you say instead 'yeah, i know what that feels like, let me stand alongside you,'?

AbortedWalrusFetus said:
You really don't know what "othering" is. It has nothing to do with majority/minority dynamics whatsoever. It's simple the process of dividing two groups into an "us" and a "them" and then using that to foster insecurity or negative feelings toward another group. It happened all over the apartheid, and it happens in almost every group, majority or minority. By saying "privileged white males" should experience it, you were doing just that. You were painting that group as a "them" that clearly was ignorant to the ill directed toward your group, the "us."
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it's hard for me not to read this as 'NO YOU ARE' and just dismiss it, but i try not to do such things.

my statement was saying that i wished that every priveleged white male get to experience being othered at some point in their lifetime. i clearly stated that i belonged to that group, and i never said that 'they don't know what it's like', i just said 'i wish they all knew what it was like'. do you disagree that such a thing wouldn't cause more sympathy between each and every one of us
 
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