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[charlequin]

it's a good thing this thread got bumped, otherwise how could we debate ways for the silly woman to replace her own useless opinions in the final product with the wise, learned beliefs of men

 

[GrizzNKev]

Not necessarily true. One well supported opinion is often more solid than an opinion by committee or some "fair and balanced" bullshit. What's more, I'm pretty sure her main focus is results not intents. You can have the best intentions in the world and still end up with miserably bigoted results because of a lack of social perspective, as such I don't see too much value in developer interviews for this particular series.

If they're like her previous Tropes VS Women series they'll be short and focused on examples of sexism. The developers reasoning behind it would be interesting as a study of social perceptions but outside the limited scope of these videos. Such interviews would also be harder to get due to travel, any language barriers, and possible lack of developer cooperation. If something like that was done, it should be its own project rather than an aside in this one.

Then we see a conflict between the funding available and the scope and goals of the project. The implication is that since she got way more money than she asked for, she should expand the scope accordingly.

 

[rCIZZLE]

The fgc sickens me.

And one of my fighting game loving friends wonders why I never get into them.

generalizations are always fun

 

[DragonGirl]

Then we see a conflict between the funding available and the scope and goals of the project. The implication is that since she got way more money than she asked for, she should expand the scope accordingly.

Or she could keep to the original plan, polish off this series, then start a new series. Possibly one about developer intentions, or whatever else she wants to cover.

 

[Taruranto]

I'm really curious to see what she'll say about ICO and Shadow of the Colossus, ah.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Or she could keep to the original plan, polish off this series, then start a new series. Possibly one about developer intentions, or whatever else she wants to cover.

Well yeah, that's fine too. As long as she's letting people know where their money is going and doing something that's intended to be constructive with it, I'm sure they'll support her.

 

[Suairyu]

Well yeah, that's fine too. As long as she's letting people know where their money is going and doing something that's intended to be constructive with it, I'm sure they'll support her.

The money was to fund her living and production expenses during the making of the show. Payment for the job, basically. She doesn't have to do shit beyond what she initially promised and that people keep harping on about it without even seeing the final product is counter-productive and aggressive.

 

[GrizzNKev]

The money was to fund her living and production expenses during the making of the show. Payment for the job, basically. She doesn't have to do shit beyond what she initially promised and that people keep harping on about it without even seeing the final product is counter-productive and aggressive.

Using only a small portion of what she was given, then keeping the rest and moving on with her life is at the very least a missed opportunity. More funding means greater potential so I think it's completely reasonable to hope for that. That's fine though, keep aggressively accusing me of being aggressive.

 

[jimi_dini]

I'm really curious to see what she'll say about ICO and Shadow of the Colossus, ah.

I would guess:

Yorda - typical damsel in distress, can't do anything by herself, yada yada, Ico has to rescue her all the time, she is unable to fight and needs to get told what to do, Ico needs to protect her and even hold her hand (although all of this makes sense story wise)

Mono - dead for the whole time of the game, I don't know if damsel in distress can get pulled over that one. Can she be a damsel in distress, if she is dead?


I wonder if she would accept that Ico wouldn't work any other way and that it actually creates a bond between the player and Yorda, which is great. I mean what should they have done? Role reversal? A girl with horns? And that girl rescues an entrapped boy. Wait, then we have to change the queen to a king, otherwise it wouldn't make sense. Or Yorda would fight back? Then it would change the game completely. At least no sexualisation. Still I agree, her opinion would be pretty interesting, because Ico is not a black + white situation.

 

[DragonGirl]

Using only a small portion of what she was given, then keeping the rest and moving on with her life is at the very least a missed opportunity. More funding means greater potential so I think it's completely reasonable to hope for that. That's fine though, keep aggressively accusing me of being aggressive.

I don't know why this is even being discussed. She's already made clear that the extra money would allow her to focus on Feminist Frequency and its projects as a full time job for at least the duration of this project and probably longer. That means she's not relying on any other income for the time being. Paying her crew and living expenses can eat through that money pretty fast.

 

[charlequin]

I mean what should they have done? Role reversal? A girl with horns? And that girl rescues an entrapped boy

I fucking hate ICO and the gross gender-role stuff in the storyline is like half the reason why. Make the protagonist a girl and it would already immensely improve things, IMO.

 

[cutmeamango]

I fucking hate ICO and the gross gender-role stuff in the storyline is like half the reason why. Make the protagonist a girl and it would already immensely improve things, IMO.

 

[UrbanRats]

Ico of all games is pretty easy, considering the infamous Ueda's reasoning behind the gender choices.
SotC also uses pretty notorious tropes, so it's not hard to imagine that either, plus Ueda referred to SotC as a more masculine game, in some occasion, so that too.

 

[charlequin]

Just try to imagine even a single person on GAF still liking the game if, say, just Yorda was gender-swapped.

 

[UrbanRats]

Just try to imagine even a single person on GAF still liking the game if, say, just Yorda was gender-swapped.

Are you kidding? I would like it just the same, if not more so (not much that is, but that's because that game frustrates me to no end).
I mean i see your point, but i'm sure plenty of people would have no problem in having a non empowered male character (or borderline mentally challenged, in the case of Yorda) on GAF.

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

Just try to imagine even a single person on GAF still liking the game if, say, just Yorda was gender-swapped.

Is this a joke post? Then again, that dude would need to be pretty frail to require help from a 12 year old

 

[cutmeamango]

Just try to imagine even a single person on GAF still liking the game if, say, just Yorda was gender-swapped.

I would still like it.
Yorda being a boy affects nothing to the presentation and narrative.

The character relation is not (or you could say it is more than) a young/first romance. It is about finding someone who does not care about what/who you are (and trusts you).

Be it two girls.
A girl and a boy.
A boy and a girl.
Two boys.

EDIT: And seemingly your problem was not with Yorda's depiction, but with the 'male dependancy'.
Which is why I posted the gif.

EDIT: Seeing how you did not despise ICO's storytelling in 2006 and even regarded as a good, different game, maybe you learned or visualized things in subsequent playthroughs that I did not yet.

 

[charlequin]

The character relation is not (or you could say it is more than) a young/first romance.

The issue isn't with romance, it's with the cliche of the male protector -- the idea that the male is so innately active, dynamic, and powerful, while the female is so passive, inscrutable, and pliable, that a child leading someone much older around with a forceful hand is totally natural (as long as everyone's the right gender.) You turn Yorda into a man and immediately people get uncomfortable (or worse, attack the character for his weakness.)

Seeing how you did not despise ICO's storytelling in 2006

are you seriously doing this

 

[kevm3]

You know why the male protector role exists in video games? Because it exists in real life. I guess we better chastise those guys who go after men who hit women in public because that would be degrading since she is equal to a man and more than capable of handling herself. We better chastise those women who say they want a man that makes them feel safe because that's reinforcing sexist gender roles. You know the ones who will get sent to combat zones if a war breaks out? Men. We better change that because that is reinforcing the notion that women are the weaker sex. Better take those 'don't hit women' commercials off of television and change them into 'don't hit men or women' because focusing on one gender is sexist and undermines the female's ability to protect herself as well as ignoring that men get hit in relationships too. "Women and children first"? That's sexist now too. Better change that to children first and every man and woman for him or herself.

 

[Vermillion]

The issue isn't with romance, it's with the cliche of the male protector -- the idea that the male is so innately active, dynamic, and powerful, while the female is so passive, inscrutable, and pliable, that a child leading someone much older around with a forceful hand is totally natural (as long as everyone's the right gender.) You turn Yorda into a man and immediately people get uncomfortable (or worse, attack the character for his weakness.)

Stories are stories. We shouldn't be mad about any of what you posted - rather we should be mad that there aren't more female protectors leading games.

 

[idlethreats]

The issue isn't with romance, it's with the cliche of the male protector -- the idea that the male is so innately active, dynamic, and powerful, while the female is so passive, inscrutable, and pliable, that a child leading someone much older around with a forceful hand is totally natural (as long as everyone's the right gender.) You turn Yorda into a man and immediately people get uncomfortable (or worse, attack the character for his weakness.)

The same thing happened in Dissidia and it was complete BS there too. They turned Terra (VI) into a frail, frightened, insecure little snowflake who was led around by the Onion Knight (III), a kid, who declared himself her protector. It was pretty infuriating.

It would be interesting to see where ICO/SotC fit into FemFreq's analysis, but regardless of how any of us interpret each of the characters from Team ICO's games, based on Ueda's statements regarding The Last Guardian I think it's pretty clear that he's got some messed up ideas about gender.

 

[jimi_dini]

I fucking hate ICO and the gross gender-role stuff in the storyline is like half the reason why. Make the protagonist a girl and it would already immensely improve things, IMO.

Then you would probably have to swap both genders. Yorda + Ico. Which means you would also have to swap genders of the queen. Which means you would have to change almost the whole story.

Anyhow, just changing the gender of the protagonist wouldn't be enough in any case. You would have to at least change the gender of

Spoiler

the other boys with horns

and this would also have a huge impact on the story.

Spoiler

In the village of the boy, boys with horns are seen as a bad omen, that's why he got locked away and was supposed to die there. Males are typically seen as less valueable as females, so locking away females would make less sense. Even in our time, it's children and women first.

It's not some simplistic "grown prince rescues princess" story.

Would anyone in here really prefer to protect and fight for a little boy as a female protagonist? I thought most women didn't like men to be inactive and "wimps". I mean I got fed up with Yorda, because of the time trial trophy and her "horrible" AI, that wasn't meant for any speedrun. I guess changing Yorda to a male would make it even worse for some people and I would call that anti-male. You see this as anti-female, but I see it as the exact opposite. And just take a look in the Dating-Age thread.

I mean the inactivity by Yorda makes sense.

Spoiler

she was entrapped her whole life

. Ico however wasn't, so he was able to somewhat "fight", although he doesn't fight properly, he fights like a little boy would fight. And Ico is definitely not a male "power fantasy". It's a young boy.

 

[Earthpainting]

Changing ICO to a girl and 'horned boys' to 'horned children' would have been enough to alleviate. I don't see how it would make a huge impact the story other than masking Team ICO's questionable opinions on gender roles.

The same thing happened in Dissidia and it was complete BS there too. They turned Terra (VI) into a frail, frightened, insecure little snowflake who was led around by the Onion Knight (III), a kid, who declared himself her protector. It was pretty infuriating.

I must admit that this one hit me the hardest. Dissidia's interpretation of Terra had such a stark contrast with my own that it made me very uncomfortable. It's the prime reason that I don't want Square to even think of a potential remake of FFVI.

 

[Tomat]

Just try to imagine even a single person on GAF still liking the game if, say, just Yorda was gender-swapped.

Really don't think that's hard to imagine, but alright.

I wasn't even aware that having a male MC guide the girl around was a problem. This goes back to my original problem with a lot of people in this thread: There is some serious overthinking and nitpicking going on here.

 

[SmokyDave]

Just try to imagine even a single person on GAF still liking the game if, say, just Yorda was gender-swapped.

You could swap her (or him) for an alien or a robot and it would still be a good game, I reckon. That goes for many, many good games.

Perhaps I'm not looking 'deep enough' when I play games.

 

[patapuf]

Stories are stories. We shouldn't be mad about any of what you posted - rather we should be mad that there aren't more female protectors leading games.

This. Demand more variety instead of being mad at something like ICO. There's nothing gross about the story.

 

[Kong Fisso]

You could swap her (or him) for an alien or a robot and it would still be a good game, I reckon. That goes for many, many good games.

Perhaps I'm not looking 'deep enough' when I play games.

No, seems you just aren't actively looking for shit to take issue with.

 

[kadotsu]

You could swap her (or him) for an alien or a robot and it would still be a good game, I reckon. That goes for many, many good games.

Perhaps I'm not looking 'deep enough' when I play games.

I may have the story wrong after all these years but wouldn't changing her gender kill the whole

Spoiler

mother daughter

dynamic.

Spoiler

If I recall correctly the Queen wanted to take over her body. The impact comes largely from the emotional and visceral mother/child connection and the betrayal of it. So it only works because of gender.

The protagonist's gender could be changed though. You would - maybe - lose the romantic undertones (hetero-normative society paired with mostly implied relationship) but the story would still work.

 

[PdotMichael]

It makes me a little sad that we can't have stories like ICO anymore without to have a silly PC discussion.

And afterall it

Spoiler

was Yorda who protected the little boy at the end.

 

[Moral Panic]

Just try to imagine even a single person on GAF still liking the game if, say, just Yorda was gender-swapped.

Really? Really? Do you look down on everyone else that much?

This cannot be a legitimate opinion. I must be missing something, please clarify.

 

[SmokyDave]

I may have the story wrong after all these years but wouldn't changing her gender kill the whole

Spoiler

mother daughter

dynamic.

Spoiler

If I recall correctly the Queen wanted to take over her body. The impact comes largely from the emotional and visceral mother/child connection and the betrayal of it. So it only works because of gender.

The protagonist's gender could be changed though. You would - maybe - lose the romantic undertones (hetero-normative society paired with mostly implied relationship) but the story would still work.

Eh, yeh, you're right (I haven't played it for years either), but I'm sure it could be tweaked slightly and I'd still enjoy it just as much. I thought I was going to blow a gasket when they switched Harry for Rose when making the Silent Hill movie but I still enjoyed it even with the 'father - daughter' dynamic switched out for the staid and traditional 'mother - daughter' dynamic.

I guess all I'm saying ultimately is that I don't give a shit which gender my digital avatar is whether they're hero, coward, protector or protected. Same with race.

 

[Riposte]

Sometimes people bring baggage into games that prevent them from fully appreciating them.

 

[Kikujiro]

The issue isn't with romance, it's with the cliche of the male protector -- the idea that the male is so innately active, dynamic, and powerful, while the female is so passive, inscrutable, and pliable, that a child leading someone much older around with a forceful hand is totally natural (as long as everyone's the right gender.) You turn Yorda into a man and immediately people get uncomfortable (or worse, attack the character for his weakness.)

The issue is taking a simple story out of its context just for your personal agendas. You can do this to every single story not feminist enough for you, I can accuse every Miyazaki's movies of sexism with a work of rhetoric. Sailor Moon can be described as a sexist anime made only for males to fantasize, despite being loved by females and being created by a woman. It's easy to spin things.

I guess you hate 2001 A Space Odyssey because Hal is obviously a sexist device since it's voiced by a female.

Really? Really? Do you look down on everyone else that much?

This cannot be a legitimate opinion. I must be missing something, please clarify.

If you read some of his other posts you can see that holier-than-thou is his typical attitude.

 

[Mael]

Just try to imagine even a single person on GAF still liking the game if, say, just Yorda was gender-swapped.

That would change anything?
IDK but the way I see it, the characters are barely human as it is.
Everyone look like a ghost in the game, it really feels like a dream so I guess anything goes there.
I don't think I'd like it any better or any less if it was gender swapped, I'd still be mostly bored with it :/

 

[Mandoric]

The issue is taking a simple story out of its context just for your personal agendas. You can do this to every single story not feminist enough for you, I can accuse every Miyazaki's movies of sexism with a work of rhetoric. Sailor Moon can be described as a sexist anime made only for males to fantasize, despite being loved by females and being created by a woman. It's easy to spin things.

I guess you hate 2001 A Space Odyssey because Hal is obviously a sexist device since it's voiced by a female.

Everything has to be judged in its context. Unfortunately for Ico, its context involves its creator scrapping the idea of an active female protag for another project because we might see up her skirt. (Tights, bloomers, trousers, intelligent camera work, or just not sexualizing it by making it A Big Deal were all off the table apparently.)

 

[patapuf]

Everything has to be judged in its context. Unfortunately for Ico, its context involves its creator scrapping the idea of an active female protag for another project because we might see up her skirt. (Tights, bloomers, trousers, intelligent camera work, or just not sexualizing it by making it A Big Deal were all off the table apparently.)

i disagree, so many authors, directors and muscicians are/were horrible people. That doesn't diminish my enjoyment of their work. The intentions of the author are irrelevant to me.

 

[Mandoric]

i disagree, so many authors, directors and muscicians are/were horrible people. That doesn't diminish my enjoyment of their work. The intentions of the author are irrelevant to me.

No one's saying you can't enjoy his work. Just that when it's his work, yeah, the active boy needing to rescue the helpless girl -is- probably deliberately regressive.

 

[patapuf]

No one's saying you can't enjoy his work. Just that when it's his work, yeah, the active boy needing to rescue the helpless girl -is- probably deliberately regressive.

You see, i don't think there is anything regressive about an active boy helping the helpless girl. Is it a somewhat tired trope, especially in videogames? Sure, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the concept. We only talk about it because there's too little variety in the videogame space right now.

Calling ICO's story "gross" or "regressive" seems a bit OTT to me. Especially since it wasn't exactly conventional in a lot of other areas.

 

[Femmeworth]

The issue is taking a simple story out of its context just for your personal agendas. You can do this to every single story not feminist enough for you, I can accuse every Miyazaki's movies of sexism with a work of rhetoric. Sailor Moon can be described as a sexist anime made only for males to fantasize, despite being loved by females and being created by a woman. It's easy to spin things.

I guess you hate 2001 A Space Odyssey because Hal is obviously a sexist device since it's voiced by a female.

1. Sailor Moon (anime) was made by men and was not a strict adaptation.
2. Women loving it doesn't mean a whole lot.

To be clear, I'm not saying whether Sailor Moon is sexist or not.

In regards to ICO, it's been a while since I have played it, but the fact that you have to pretty much drag Yorda around is damning.

It makes me a little sad that we can't have stories like ICO anymore without to have a silly PC discussion.

And afterall it

Spoiler

was Yorda who protected the little boy at the end.

Get that shit out of here. If you want to stick your head in the proverbial sand, go ahead.

 

[Pyronite]

it's a good thing this thread got bumped, otherwise how could we debate ways for the silly woman to replace her own useless opinions in the final product with the wise, learned beliefs of men

Awesome.

 

[jimi_dini]

The character relation is not (or you could say it is more than) a young/first romance. It is about finding someone who does not care about what/who you are (and trusts you).

Exactly.

I don't get why anyone could consider Ico to be a romance. It's not. The boy is a child. And Yorda is sort of a child as well. There is nothing sexual going on. There is not even romantic love going on. He just tries to help her and escape the castle by himself. In fact right at the start he just wants to get OUT OF THE CASTLE. He wasn't infiltrating the castle to rescue "the girl".

The game creates a bond between the player (Ico) and Yorda. Which some players may interpret as "romance", although nothing in the game even hints about that at all. The game makes the player feel for Yorda. It's designed so that you "miss her" and keep an eye on her the whole time. But not because she is female, but because she is vulnerable. That's what makes it great. And if she was able to fight properly, the game just wouldn't work anymore.

The complete dialogue of Ico (by 1up.com, based on the hieroglyphic subtitles) - obviously major spoilers:

Spoiler

Villager: Get the sword. Do not be angry with us. This is for the good of the village.

Ico: Is anybody there? Who are you? What are you doing in there? Hold on. I will get you down.
Yorda: Who are you? How did you get in here?

Ico: They...They tried to sacrifice me because I have horns. Kids with horns are brought here. Were they trying to sacrifice you too?
Ico: What was that creature that came after you? It's too dangerous for us to be here! We need to get out of here.
Ico: How did you do that? Look, the gate is open! Now we can get out of here! Let's go!
The Queen: Come back, Yorda.

The Queen: So, you're the one aimlessly leading my Yorda around.
The Queen: Do you know who this girl is? This girl you're with is my one and only beloved daughter. Stop wasting your time with her. She lives in a different world than some boys with horns!

The Queen: Now, know your place and leave here.
Ico: Are you okay?
Yorda: I have angered her.

The Queen: Yorda, why can't you understand?
The Queen: You cannot survive in the outside world.

Ico: Are you okay? A little more.
Yorda: Thank you...
Ico: Wait.

Ico: What did you do to her?
The Queen: Silence, boy. You're too late.

The Queen: My body has become too old and won't last much longer. But Yorda is going to grant me the power to be resurrected. To be my spiritual vessel is the fulfillment of her destiny!
The Queen: The next time her body wakes, Yorda will be no more. Now put down the sword and leave. That is what she would want you to do.
The Queen: You're a nuisance, boy. Do you want to die that much? Yorda will never be able to escape this castle...Even if you take... my life...
Yorda: Good-bye.

 

[NovemberMike]

*sigh*

This isn't really meaningful when you switch to Japanese media. One of the issues is that the western male power fantasy doesn't really deal with physical attractiveness. A lot of the characters that come out of it are either scarred (Deadpool) or practically asexual (Batman). The Japanese male power fantasy is intensely focused on being attractive to women, which is why you see slender men with conditioned hair and makeup to accentuate their eyes in their culture.

 

[Endo Punk]

Wait so let me get this straight, there are women who hate on ICO simply because it shows a female being helpless? Da Fuq! What about the queen and have they even completed the game? ICO is not in any showing women in the wrong light, it is what it is. Jeez!

Bruce Wayne

oh god someone shoot me.

 

[cutmeamango]

The issue isn't with romance, it's with the cliche of the male protector -- the idea that the male is so innately active, dynamic, and powerful, while the female is so passive, inscrutable, and pliable, that a child leading someone much older around with a forceful hand is totally natural (as long as everyone's the right gender.) You turn Yorda into a man and immediately people get uncomfortable (or worse, attack the character for his weakness.)

are you seriously doing this

I know, I said that (in the EDIT part). The "make Yorda a boy = criticism" threw me out of it a bit though.

---

Yorda has been trapped all her life and is in the process of becoming a vessel. That's why she can't do shit. She is a ghost/zombie because she is barely 'there' anymore.
Of course he could have made her a terminal pacient, put a hospital bed, some sorums, make it as descriptive possible as to avoid "Why won't you defend yourself, terminal patient?! Why are you so weak terminal patient!?".

Spoiler

And whe she is 'free' of the clutch, she becomes a badass.

Now you one can say: Still, very convenient for the girl to be the one trapped. Even more so the mother that does not want to age/die. It really puts the lotion in the basket.

Well, it is convenient.

---

And yes, I was seriously doing that. I couldn't remember criticism in those aspects about ICO when SotC came out, so I needed to see if this was some new 'literature' optics, or if it was a reading that got drowned out in time and volume.

Exactly.

I don't get why anyone could consider Ico to be a romance.

A boy and a girl in a abandoned castle. He is horny. She is tipsy...

Oh my.

Spoiler

I just had a revelation here!

 

[DragonGirl]

I like ICO, and SotC. A lot. I'm not interested in tearing either down. I just don't want those power dynamics to be the only ones dominating the scene. I have a bigger issue with the dev's ideas behind them than the results.

However, both games are absolutely fair game for discussion. They're pretty much guilty of exactly the stereotypes they're accused of, and acknowledgement of this is a good thing. Doesn't mean either game has to be written off or hated by default. The only thing I ask is they be learned from.

 

[Vermillion]

*sigh*

Question, solely for knowledge:

Don't women want to be like the other women they see physically? I know that women have been adversely affected by supermodels irl - it leads to things like anorexia and bulimia.

It certainly creates unrealistic aspirations. But the thing is that these women try to be like them. Is it not analogous to the male power fantasy that the "impossibly muscled hulks" show?

And at the same time, don't men aspire to be what women are attracted to? Not many men go for impossibly muscled - many of them go for a good definition, but not, well... ripped.

 

[Femmeworth]

Question, solely for knowledge:

Don't women want to be like the other women they see physically? I know that women have been adversely affected by supermodels irl - it leads to things like anorexia and bulimia.

It certainly creates unrealistic aspirations. But the thing is that these women try to be like them. Is it not analogous to the male power fantasy that the "impossibly muscled hulks" show?

And at the same time, don't men aspire to be what women are attracted to? Not many men go for impossibly muscled - many of them go for a good definition, but not, well... ripped.

Men don't aspire to be attractive the same way that women do, a big part of it I think is earning recognition from other men. Obviously we are talking in very broad strokes here.

 

[jimi_dini]

Now you one can say: Still, very convenient for the girl to be the one trapped. Even more so the mother that does not want to age/die. It really puts the lotion in the basket.

Didn't even think about that one. Yes. The queen is probably doing this only to attract men. It's the "females have to be always young" stereotype like in our world. Let's continue this:

make Ico a girl. Fine, then the villagers (the only men left in this case) put a girl with horns into a castle to die a horrible death. Worse yet, they put

Spoiler

all girls with horns

into that castle.

Possible critic: the men in this game are hating females with abnormal features and locking them up in a castle to die horribly. What an awful game. Must be female-hating developers.

Okay, what's next. Make the villagers female too.

Possible critic: there have to be males around somewhere. Females wouldn't kill other females in that way, especially not children. So obviously the developers didn't show us the men behind this all. The men in that village must be forcing those females - possibly mothers - to kill their own daughters, just because of physical abnormality. How horrible! Must be female-hating developers.

And this can go on and on. There is no real way to fix it. If you want to critize this way, there is nothing to stop it.

This is one of the only stories, where it totally makes sense. They didn't put a girl in there and herp derp she is too weak and unable to do anything, because she is a girl. No. If one would look at it from a realistic angle, Yorda would be mentally disabled. And just because there are many other games out there that just take the "oh it's a girl, must be weak" stereotype makes this automatically horrible as well.

Even forgetting that Ico is not really the hero - which would be sort of required for the "strong male rescues weak female" stereotype to work. He

Spoiler

possibly dies in the end - he definitely does not rescue Yorda at all

.

Which - if we replaced the gender of Ico - would mean that

Spoiler

the awful developers show that girls are weak, you see? The girl didn't rescue anyone and dies in the end, typically female-hating developers - what an awful game!

So to make it perfectly feminist-friendly, you would really have to change the whole story altogether. Even change the ending.

A boy and a girl in a abandoned castle. He is horny. She is tipsy...

That's the issue with those hieroglyphic subtitles and made-up language. People can just make up the meaning of the spoken words based on their own beliefs.

And of course, Ico is a little boy. Although he has possibly not even reached puberty, there can only be one reason, why he tries to help her - because he wants to get in her pants - obviously.

 

[Atrus]

It makes me a little sad that we can't have stories like ICO anymore without to have a silly PC discussion.

It's due to people trying to hammer a politically charged agenda into obtuse situations without any sort of empirical reasoning.

 

[charlequin]

Then you would probably have to swap both genders.

Errr... why? I mean, if it's not a romantic relationship between the boy and Yorda (and I mean, even if it is, but one step at a time here) what necessity is there that the two be different genders? Why can't you have a young energetic boy who leads an older, timid boy who can't communicate effectively around?

Males are typically seen as less valueable as females

On what planet? Only female children are regularly subject to infanticide and male children are widely seen as more valuable in most societies.

Perhaps I'm not looking 'deep enough' when I play games.

Well, I mean, I bitch about ICO so much in part because it's kind of dull, slow and repetitive while Shadow of the Colossus (which has its own thematic problems in the story) is at least exciting and unique. Being fun does go a long way.