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[Dead Man]

No.

The industry is in need, not desperate, of better managers.

Simply requiring employees to do less work won't make games better or schedules magically fix themselves. If anything, it will make them worse. And once employees who are just there to collect a paycheck get job security, watch out - the quality of the games they work on will plummet.

I don't think you know what unions do.

 

[RomanticHeroX]

More members of management at studios need to realize that more raw hours doesn't equal more productivity. Not that I think Gameloft would really care. Based on the games they produce it's not surprising to me that it's run like a sweatshop.

 

[jercruz]

here's one comment from the site

If you would all be so kind as to read this comment

I am the junior artist mentioned in this paragraph down below.

"the a studio producer approached a junior artist who was working on a completely different project and informed him that he would be staying back that night and testing the game. “But I have plans for tonight”, replied the artist. “Sorry,” said the producer. “You don’t now.”

This is completly false, i had originaly offered to test the game earlier that day and i did not have plans of any sort. Even after i offered the producer asked if i was sure and i said "yes"

Luka Pavlovich

Junior Artist for Gameloft Auckland

still needs confirmation but if true, then its a relief that maybe its not all slavery and golding.

 

[Open Source]

This would be nice if you ignored the human factor. There will always be shitty managers, just like there are shitty managers plaguing every single industry, because there are shitty people in the world. A utopian industry of perfect managers does not and will never exist.

Though what you're suggesting is also necessary, its something impossible to police and impose.

If you don't want to work n hours a week, get it in your contract when you are hired, along with a provision that you get specific compensation or can't be fired for refusing to work the extra hours.

If you can't get it in your contract, looks like it is not a job for you. Look elsewhere.

You're a grown person, not a child. You can look out for yourself. And no company owes you a job that meets your criteria.

 

[Oxymoron]

If you don't want to work n hours a week, get it in your contract when you are hired, along with a provision that you get specific compensation or can't be fired for refusing to work the extra hours.

If you can't get it in your contract, looks like it is not a job for you. Look elsewhere.

You're a grown person, not a child. You can look out for yourself. And no company owes you a job that meets your criteria.

How's life in libertarian la-la land?

e: So this isn't just a snarky one-line post - You don't get to dictate terms to an employer that has people lining up around the block to do the same job you're applying for. Aspiring video game developers are cheap, plentiful, and expendable, and are completely at the mercy of employers' goodwill as to their working conditions.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

If you don't want to work n hours a week, get it in your contract when you are hired, along with a provision that you get specific compensation or can't be fired for refusing to work the extra hours.

If you can't get it in your contract, looks like it is not a job for you. Look elsewhere.

I haven't been around the industry long enough to say that doesn't exist, but I would think any suggestions of that would get you out the door faster than a bad interview process.

 

[Open Source]

Simply having a better manager between the employees and executive won';t magically fix things either. We are talking about industry wide change, not just change at this one dev. Someone sweeping in better middle managers into every game developer is an impossibility. Getting the dev employees to collectively say NO or getting some government intervention on the matters of hours and overtime, that MIGHT change things.

It would change things in that development would move elsewhere. It's already happening without unions, as companies flee California for Texas, North Carolina, Canada, China, India...anywhere they can find a cost advantage.

 

[bill0527]

The more these stories come out, the dirtier I feel playing video games and having this as a hobby.

Some of these working conditions are completely unacceptable by any country's standards.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

e: So this isn't just a snarky one-line post - You don't get to dictate terms to an employer that has people lining up around the block to do the same job you're applying for. Aspiring video game developers are cheap, plentiful, and expendable, and are completely at the mercy of employers' goodwill as to their working conditions.

To expand upon that. I've heard of contracts that states "if you leave the company, you cannot work in a related industry for a year". I was shaking my head that someone somewhere would have actually signed it to get their foot in the door, but I'm sure someone did.

 

[Cipherr]

And like he said in the interview, they were making mistakes because they were tired. What's the point in paying people to work extra hours if they are just going to work slower and have to re-do a lot of their code?!

Probably salary and arent really paying the extra. And saving money on the back end by not fixing all the problems and shipping the games buggy as hell.

 

[Warm Machine]

The more these stories come out, the dirtier I feel playing video games and having this as a hobby.

Some of these working conditions are completely unacceptable by any country's standards.

This is why "Lazy Devs" should be a term no one uses. Even in the best of places crunch hits and people have to crank to get through the squeeze.

 

[jambo]

still needs confirmation but if true, then its a relief that maybe its not all slavery and golding.

Further on the above

Follow-up: I have also received confirmation that the artist in question was, in fact, one "Sam".

Interesting.

 

[EatChildren]

If you don't want to work n hours a week, get it in your contract when you are hired, along with a provision that you get specific compensation or can't be fired for refusing to work the extra hours.

If you can't get it in your contract, looks like it is not a job for you. Look elsewhere.

You're a grown person, not a child. You can look out for yourself. And no company owes you a job that meets your criteria.

None of this refutes the need for unions and the support they can bring.

 

[Open Source]

How's life in libertarian la-la land?

e: So this isn't just a snarky one-line post - You don't get to dictate terms to an employer that has people lining up around the block to do the same job you're applying for. Aspiring video game developers are cheap, plentiful, and expendable, and are completely at the mercy of employers' goodwill as to their working conditions.

You can't form a union under those conditions, either, because there will be plenty of scabs who are willing to work without union representation.

There are employers out there that will not require overtime. The one that's hiring 200 people, on the other hand, probably has openings because of churn. Eliminate the churn, you eliminate the openings, making it harder for new people to break in.

I really don't understand this fantasy that unions would work in this business. There will always be non-unionized competition from all over the world kicking your butt. Look at Chinese manufacturing. Toyota vs. GM in the US. And so on.

One of the good things about game industry jobs being tough is that you don't stick around just for a paycheck; you have to be passionate about making games. We don't need dinosaurs slacking off for the last 10 years needed to collect their pensions.

 

[mugurumakensei]

To expand upon that. I've heard of contracts that states "if you leave the company, you cannot work in a related industry for a year". I was shaking my head that someone somewhere would have actually signed it to get their foot in the door, but I'm sure someone did.

That's actually a pretty standard contract for software developer positions in the us. It's basically to prevent someone from revealing inside information about their former employer to a competitor.

 

[jambo]

To expand upon that. I've heard of contracts that states "if you leave the company, you cannot work in a related industry for a year". I was shaking my head that someone somewhere would have actually signed it to get their foot in the door, but I'm sure someone did.

That happens all the time in a myriad of different industries.

 

[vareon]

Can we start a thread on those devs who we know *don't* treat their employees like shit? I'm sure there's a few, but the only ones that spring to mind would be Valve and Double Fine.

I support this idea, too. Would like to know the situation on other devs.

 

[Chumly]

Another developer pushing its workers beyond the boundaries of productive work. The guy even mentions how they were making mistakes but they still kept them there.

 

[Lucario]

That's actually a pretty standard contract for software developer positions in the us. It's basically to prevent someone from revealing inside information about their former employer to a competitor.

Yeah, I signed one with my new company. It's legally unenforceable; I didn't worry too much about it. It's like the EULA a while back that said microsoft legally owned your computer.

 

[Callibretto]

Can we start a thread on those devs who we know *don't* treat their employees like shit? I'm sure there's a few, but the only ones that spring to mind would be Valve and Double Fine.

insomniac, naughty dog, and lightbox (starhawk) all sounds great place to work at in their dev diary etc, but who knows what's the reality behind those well produced video. I've read that Amy Hennig from ND work crazy hour although the impression I got is because she's that committed and not because upper management pressure.

oh, and Jaffe is a self admitted hard to work with director pushing his employee to match his vision. a couple video from SSM dev diary make it sounds like hell, but they like what they do there.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

That's actually a pretty standard contract for software developer positions in the us. It's basically to prevent someone from revealing inside information about their former employer to a competitor.

That happens all the time in a myriad of different industries.

Don't most software positions restrict based on industry? IE: Going from one bank to another? That really doesn't lock you down to any other companies for software development.

The one I was suggesting prevents you from working in ALL GAME related industry, for a year. 3-6 months, understandable. Over a year? For a junior entry position?

 

[androvsky]

Yeah, I signed one with my new company. It's legally unenforceable; I didn't worry too much about it. It's like the EULA a while back that said microsoft legally owned your computer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause
They're enforced all the time, as long as they're reasonable. Some states don't typically recognize them, like California, but for the most part, you should be careful.

 

[TheFightingFish]

You need to be at the right studio, which is sadly very few from the looks of things, or go independent, which is the hardest path.

Valve are one of the only studios I can think of that puts emphasis on employee value and wellbeing, and even this didn't come abount until after Half-Life 2 was released, when Newell released the strain of overtime and grind was running everybody into the ground. He overhauled the work structure and I'm pretty sure the policy is now no overtime at all.

The industry is in desperate need of unions.

I think that I recall Valve still working pretty crazy hours. Gabe basically just said that he tries more to keep things better balanced and reward them by doing things like a big families included vacation after shipping.

Here..found the article

http://www.gamerzines.com/pc/news/valve-worried-stress-families.html

Still crazy hours there.

 

[beat]

No.

The industry is in need, not desperate, of better managers.

Simply requiring employees to do less work won't make games better or schedules magically fix themselves. If anything, it will make them worse. And once employees who are just there to collect a paycheck get job security, watch out - the quality of the games they work on will plummet.

So when you think of excellence in cars, how likely is it that the car was made in a union factory? I know foreign manufacturers setting up shops in the US tend to pick right-to-work states, but in their home countries they're heavily unionized.

As well, the problem with your thinking (here) is that you think "crunch == more work". It doesn't work that way. Because of fatigue, crunch hits diminishing returns quite quickly and abusive mandatory work hours actually leads to LESS work produced.

Also, what everyone else said.

That's actually a pretty standard contract for software developer positions in the us. It's basically to prevent someone from revealing inside information about their former employer to a competitor.

Non-competes for non-execs are basically unenforceable in California.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

nothing will change until someone young drops dead of a heart attack while working these brutal hours.

 

[AstroLad]

nothing will change until someone young drops dead of a heart attack while working these brutal hours.

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/in-re-the-passing-of-a-skadden-associate/ [law firm associate]

 

[Massa]

And their games are crap. Holy shit.

They have games that are quite good, actually.

 

[LiK]

"Head Programmer", guess this dude probably did most of the work.

Edit: nm, just read juniors are equally overworked

 

[kinoki]

Union = all good, nothing bad

Not having one is stupid. I don't think people who are against them even know what they do. And the gaming industry is in dire needs of something organised.

 

[plufim]

The games industry is great, because whenever my conservative friends talk about how unions are evil and ruin everything, it proves to be a very useful counterpoint to their argument.

 

[subversus]

I'm pretty sure the policy is now no overtime at all.

No, they still crunch but crunching at Valve is a bit different than crunching at Team Bondi and Gameloft as you might understand.

 

[Open Source]

As well, the problem with your thinking (here) is that you think "crunch == more work". It doesn't work that way. Because of fatigue, crunch hits diminishing returns quite quickly and abusive mandatory work hours actually leads to LESS work produced.

I realize this. I am certainly not supportive of any company who overworks their employees without proper compensation. However, there is some maximum productivity level; it is more than 40 hours a week; and at some companies, doing extra work to make the company more successful can benefit you as well - in the form of raises, promotions, a profitable company that can still afford your services, and so on. This will not be true at every company, but the solution is to find the right company to work for. Part of the solution is also to publicize working conditions at various companies, so that potential employees can make informed decisions about where to apply.

One of the really hideous things about working in a union (at least the ones I have experience with) is that you can't work more than the proscribed number of hours, because the union doesn't want you raising expectations or making the people who don't work that much look bad.

 

[Twinduct]

Agreed on the union bit. I'm sure every industry has an example of harsh working hours, but it's becoming more evident that there is a trend forming with publishers/ dev houses with excessive 'required' work hours.

Worse bit is I imagine companies like gameloft makes it worse. Not only are you required to work those hours, you also rarely get put onto something that I would imagine be a 'developer's project'.

Unless that project is in some form a copy of another successful franchise.

 

[Raitosaito]

I'd actually imagine better.

One thing with Gameloft's way of doing things is that they need to be quick when something popular shows up. I'd imagine their dev cycles to copy out something to be extremely short, and, hence, very much entirely crunched based for the entire cycle.

That's an interesting theory on how they work.

 

[Kyon]

And their games are crap. Holy shit.

.

 

[DiscoJer]

The games industry is great, because whenever my conservative friends talk about how unions are evil and ruin everything, it proves to be a very useful counterpoint to their argument.

And as a counter argument, they would point to the US Automobile industry. Which there wouldn't be any more, had not the government given them taxpayer money (including Ford, they escaped being government owned, but they were given money).

The problem is that because the gaming industry is being viewed as "glamorous", people will take jobs in it and put up with being treated like crap.

Consumers are also at fault - they are pretty much unwilling to pay higher prices for games, even though they are more and more labor intensive.

 

[Dead Man]

I realize this. I am certainly not supportive of any company who overworks their employees without proper compensation. However, there is some maximum productivity level; it is more than 40 hours a week; and at some companies, doing extra work to make the company more successful can benefit you as well - in the form of raises, promotions, a profitable company that can still afford your services, and so on. This will not be true at every company, but the solution is to find the right company to work for. Part of the solution is also to publicize working conditions at various companies, so that potential employees can make informed decisions about where to apply.

One of the really hideous things about working in a union (at least the ones I have experience with) is that you can't work more than the proscribed number of hours, because the union doesn't want you raising expectations or making the people who don't work that much look bad.

Outside of safety concerns, that has never been my experience with unions. Those are unions who are doing it wrong.

 

[pieatorium]

Outside of safety concerns, that has never been my experience with unions. Those are unions who are doing it wrong.

This is my experience aswell, the only time restrictions at the last union job I worked were, no more than 16 hours in a day, at least 8 hours rest between shifts and no more than 13 days in a row before a day off.


Edit: also that overtime outside outside of the 2 hours per day mon-fri and 8 hours on saturday can be turned down. The contract had that overtime in it as standard as it was a time sensitive job.

 

[kinoki]

I realize this. I am certainly not supportive of any company who overworks their employees without proper compensation. However, there is some maximum productivity level; it is more than 40 hours a week; and at some companies, doing extra work to make the company more successful can benefit you as well - in the form of raises, promotions, a profitable company that can still afford your services, and so on. This will not be true at every company, but the solution is to find the right company to work for. Part of the solution is also to publicize working conditions at various companies, so that potential employees can make informed decisions about where to apply.

One of the really hideous things about working in a union (at least the ones I have experience with) is that you can't work more than the proscribed number of hours, because the union doesn't want you raising expectations or making the people who don't work that much look bad.

Watch this (it's fun and educating): http://www.youtube.com/user/theRSAorg#p/u/5/u6XAPnuFjJc . It's a video about what drives working people.

 

[Dunan]

This is my experience aswell, the only time restrictions at the last union job I worked were, no more than 16 hours in a day, at least 8 hours rest between shifts and no more than 13 days in a row before a day off.

Edit: also that overtime outside outside of the 2 hours per day mon-fri and 8 hours on saturday can be turned down. The contract had that overtime in it as standard as it was a time sensitive job.

All those clauses sound perfectly reasonable and should be standard labor law, not something that a union has to negotiate for. Particularly the one about 8 hours between shifts. When you account not just for sleep but also for bathing, eating, etc., it should really be 10.

 

[kinoki]

This is my experience aswell, the only time restrictions at the last union job I worked were, no more than 16 hours in a day, at least 8 hours rest between shifts and no more than 13 days in a row before a day off.


Edit: also that overtime outside outside of the 2 hours per day mon-fri and 8 hours on saturday can be turned down. The contract had that overtime in it as standard as it was a time sensitive job.

At my current job we have no more than 6 days in a row. 11 hours rest between shifts and 36 hours of continued rest every week. Overtime is by choice but they pay 100% extra for it. All union.

 

[lockload]

It isn't pretty, but working a couple of 17 hour days during a major event in IT, etc. isn't that uncommon folks.

I'm not talking about everyday working conditions, but when you aren't working hourly as a sales clerk at the Best Buy it isn't as cut and dry as "9 to 5".

Agree with this ive worked on IT project for 10 years and one was similar to this coming in at 8 and if i left before 8 i felt like i was letting people down, weekend working and overtime were PAID though that seems to be a difference between video games and the work that i do

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Yeh, dont really understand how/why people put up with that shit. If my boss told me to work 17 hours a day I would tell him to get fucked, its not like they can fire you for it.

Not everyone can do that. You can say no, but then expect to get fired based on some other random thing. Also good luck getting a good rec. From themif needed later on. Also, some occupations, like medical doctors, if they refuse to work call or post call, they could lose their license. And that is essentially a 24 hour work shift. Id also imagine airline pilots being in a similar boat.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

insomniac, naughty dog, and lightbox (starhawk) all sounds great place to work at in their dev diary etc, but who knows what's the reality behind those well produced video. I've read that Amy Hennig from ND work crazy hour although the impression I got is because she's that committed and not because upper management pressure.

oh, and Jaffe is a self admitted hard to work with director pushing his employee to match his vision. a couple video from SSM dev diary make it sounds like hell, but they like what they do there.

Behind the scene production videos are going to make it seem that development is dude bro fun and awesome. But naughty dog or what have you, its likely all the same shit. It doesnt benefit the developer to showcase to the world its studio is a hell hole to work at. So ofcourse these dev diaries are going to be whiz bangninja fun.

 

[SovanJedi]

This does not surprise me in the least. A friend of mine landed an artist job in Gameloft New York, but was so miserable from all the overtime they got her to do she quit after a few months.

 

[Metal B]

Consumers are also at fault - they are pretty much unwilling to pay higher prices for games, even though they are more and more labor intensive.

If you look at Wii, DS, iPhone, Mobil or PC games, consumers will buy a lot of game, which are less labor intensive. The game industrie has to slow down and stop the arms race or run there selfs and there empolyers into the ground.

 

[ZealousD]

And speaking of mobile games, why the hell do they need to crunch? They don't have to meet deadlines or anything. They can release their games anytime they want.

The hell are you going on about? Mobile gaming moves faster than console development does. Imagine their crunch trying to get Xperia Play support into their most popular games, trying to get them to release around launch. Or what about a game like Backstab, which was essentially built for the platform?

And to everyone else, even though Gameloft may be creatively bankrupt, there's still a hell of a lot of work involved to make games at the level Gameloft does. Gameloft games have some of the highest production values in the mobile gaming indsutry. And they make a lot of games.

 

[SamBishop]

...I expect pages worth of people bitching about Gameloft, but remember, sometimes, people are there because it's still a paycheque, and with this current market, packing up and "finding a better job" isn't an option if your family depends on your next cheque right away.

Sorry to single you out for a quote, but I really wanted the last parts of your post to (hopefully) ring true just a little more. It's one of the things that most of the more active posters here simply don't understand about the industry (and likely the world at large): that eventually you find yourself at a place where things have changed so drastically in even just a few years or even months in more recent cases that you completely missed the shift, such was your head-in-the-ditches approach to getting the job done, at meeting those milestones.

Popping up for air or perspective sometimes doesn't happen all that often, and the result is aiding a speeding train toward something you're not really certain of. You know you're contributing toward the end goal, but you're fully cognizant of where it's all heading or even what compartment of the whole barreling hulk you're even a part of. The routine becomes the reality, and it clouds senses a bit.

This isn't rare, this is what happens with anyone who works in any consistent gig. Flipping burgers at McDonald's. Manning a toll booth. Working as lead on a licensed kid's game that has to ship day and date with the flick or tv show or whatever the fuck. Head down, work gets done. It's a terrible, true reality: if you put people to work on something--particularly something they nominally enjoy--they work better with the ol' nose to the grindstone. Powering through it is so much easier when you used to like what you do.

But the reality is simply this: no one has ever ever said,"I want to grow up to make a bunch of shitty, copycat games!" It doesn't happen. Everyone wants to make the best thing they can make. It's our nature. If it's not the best something, it's the best BETTER version of that something. If it's being subversive, it's making the best anti-something, even if you just want to bend and break the normal ideal version. You're still railing to extremes to funnel along the same route. How to break out?

Oh, and by the way, while you've been pondering all this? You have a son that is too rambunctious to go to sleep, but a daughter who hasn't stopped screaming bloody murder for the last 45 minutes because she's teething and cookies and that cute chewy disc you bought on a lark to "maybe help" isn't exactly living up to its supposed pedigree. Also, a wife who has loved and supported you through the shittiest job searching times you've ever had, but has given you amazing, incredible children (when they don't slam into the bed while screaming at two hours past their bed time or pour with such diaphanous peals that you have no choice but to tend to them). She's there, and she rode that old storm before and isn't quite saddle-ready for this new one.

What do you do?

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

At this point, it might be shorter and easier to compile a list of devs who do not work their employees to death and treat them like shit...

 

[Omikaru]

Considering not only that their games are shit, but the volume of said shit constantly spewing from that asshole called Gameloft, I'm not surprised one bit by this revelation. Saddened, but not surprised.

But the sad truth is that many-a-good game has come from such conditions. The reason why Gameloft's suck is because they're pumping out so many of the buggers.

Case in point: L.A. Noire was a pretty good game, and we all know about the working conditions that went on at Team Bondi...