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[JesseEwiak]

A fantastic deep dive from Stephen Greenhouse with his exposé of Uber and the argument that their drivers are not employees. He discusses several key points that observers of the Uber economy have noted–that there is nothing new about this employment relationship, that despite their claims, Uber and other companies control almost everything about this employment relationship, that if Uber drivers were classified as employees instead of independent contractors there is no reason why Uber would have to follow through on its claims of placing people on set schedules, and that the lack of any benefits is a major problem throughout this economy.

Before anybody jumps in, yes, taxis in a lot of places are terrible and probably don't treat their employees great. That doesn't absolve Uber of being a horrible corporation simply because you want cheap rides when you're drunk.

In any case, there is no reason why Uber, Lyft, and all these other services shouldn’t be held under traditional employment law. The more we know, the more exploitative these companies seem. Let’s hope politicians and the courts see this too.

http://prospect.org/article/road-nowhere-3

Parmar, 53, who immigrated to the U.S. from India at age 16, receives no benefits through Uber, but he says he is fortunate because his family gets health insurance thanks to his wife’s job at a bank.

He, too, did well in his first year with Uber, but then the company dropped its New York prices by 30 percent. His pay receipts show that he used to average around $2,000 a week, driving 2 p.m. to 2 a.m. six days a week—but by last summer, his weekly gross fell to about $1,500 a week. From that he had to subtract around $100 a week for gas, around $100 a week for tolls, and $400 a week to rent a Toyota Camry with insurance.

For Parmar, grossing $1,500 a week for 70 hours of driving comes to around $21.50 an hour, before factoring in his many expenses. That was substantially less than the $28 an hour that two researchers—Alan Krueger, a Princeton economist, and Jonathan Hall, Uber’s director of policy research—found to be the median gross pay for Uber drivers in New York in an analysis of October 2014 data. (The $28 an hour they found comes to $58,000 a year for a 40-hour-a-week driver, and is far below the $90,000 a year that Uber was boasting its drivers in New York averaged in 2014.) According to Krueger and Hall’s Uber-backed study, the median gross pay for Uber drivers in 20 cities was around $17.50 an hour—including $16 in Chicago, just under $17 in Los Angeles—and that was before subtracting the drivers’ costs and before Uber further reduced fares in 48 cities in January 2015.

“I went personally to Uber’s office in Queens and I said, ‘How do you justify this 30 percent cut in fares?’” says Parmar, who recently cut back his Uber hours to part-time so he could also drive for a friend’s black-car service. “They said, ‘Since we’ve dropped the price, we’re going to have more customers.’

“I told them, ‘I’m not selling apples, I’m not selling donuts. I’m driving a car. I can do 15 or 16 rides a night. If the price is 30 percent less, I get paid 30 percent less.’

“They said the cheaper the price, the more customers you’ll have. I can’t drive 100 customers a night. I’m not a machine. I cannot work 18 hours a day.”

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I think they need the OPTION of full time employment for people who actually want to commit to it full time. The problem is that no one sees this middle ground. It's either make them contractors (like they are) or make them employees, when it seems that the best model would be to allow both.

A lot of people do this for extra cash/as a side job and it wouldn't make sense for them to be actual employees, while others commit to it full time. I think having 2 models, with the employee model being predicated on a required number of weekly hours, could work. It'd then be on the driver to choose which is more appropriate for them

 

[Stinkles]

I have no issues with Uber being forced to a better employer by the market and the media. Especially since its end game is to eliminate drivers completely.

 

[Mael]

And despite all that they're still less of a drain than regular taxis.

 

[cwmartin]

And despite all that they're still less of a drain than regular taxis.

What is this empirical measurement of "drain"?

The ease of using one? I don't understand this statement.

EDIT* - Treating your drivers like shit is not a tolerable externality despite innovating the taxi industry.

 

[Draft]

Uber business model exploits drivers but only because 'Murica ties health coverage to employment. An actual social safety net would alleviate the most toxic aspect of the relationship between Uber and its drivers. Unfortunately for Uber full timers I don't see a real safety net or meaningful employment regulation affecting Uber before self driving cars make taxi drivers obsolete.

 

[Acorn]

Hoping for politicians to do anything about this is funny. It's what a bunch of their donors have wanted for years but they haven't done out of fear, now it's here and they didn't need to do shit but inaction.

 

[gutter_trash]

Uber is shit, they charged a man in Edmonton over 1100 bucks for a 20 minute ride on New Year's
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...warning-in-wake-of-1114-bill-on-new-years-eve


and charged a woman 600 bucks in Montreal on the same night
http://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...passenger-hit-with-600-cab-fare-new-years-eve


it's the Wild Wild West libertarian charge anything with Uber

fuck Uber

 

[shira]

Apparently I can not read. Sorry

 

[Junior Mint]

Uber is shit, they charged a man in Edmonton over 1100 bucks for a 20 minute ride on New Year's
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...warning-in-wake-of-1114-bill-on-new-years-eve


and charged a woman 600 bucks in Montreal on the same night
http://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...passenger-hit-with-600-cab-fare-new-years-eve


it's the Wild Wild West libertarian charge anything with Uber

fuck Uber

The app gives you a gigantic surge pricing warning. These people are just stupid. Hell, Uber even sends out an email the day before high-demand nights like Halloween and New Years warning you about surge pricing and giving tips on how to avoid it.

 

[Lucario]

16 years old and making 78k a year driving around. And he's complaining.

Try reading that again.

 

[Acorn]

Uber business model exploits drivers but only because 'Murica ties health coverage to employment. An actual social safety net would alleviate the most toxic aspect of the relationship between Uber and its drivers. Unfortunately for Uber full timers I don't see a real safety net or meaningful employment regulation affecting Uber before self driving cars make taxi drivers obsolete.

This has started with taxis but you can bet everyone is looking at these models. I fully expect businesses to start to exploit this as soon as they can. The new sharing economy and all that shite. Where sharing means permanent precariousness for a vast swath of the poorest.

This problem doesn't fix itself with self driving cars it's just the starting gun.

 

[FriedConsole]

I don't understand the hate from the far left over Uber. For the most part government regulation creates better things. In this one case, it made a horrible industry that needs to die. I guess for ideologues they can't let this go that maxims aren't always true. I am all for Uber drivers getting better benefits but the far left wants all the same regulations that made Taxi services horrible so that we have Uber just as terrible as regular taxis.

As a frequent traveler who spent way too many times in cabs with terrible service, ridiculous pricing and more than once thought I was going die in one either from the insane driver spouting out racist/insane stuff or the driving ability of the cabbie - no way will I ever take a cab without any other alternatives.

Also a lot of Uber drivers are former taxi drivers and they make more money because the corrupt taxi system has them giving away a good portion of their money. The only taxi drivers that don't want to move to Uber are the horrible people that know that with user feedback they will be booted from the system.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Uber is shit, they charged a man in Edmonton over 1100 bucks for a 20 minute ride on New Year's
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...warning-in-wake-of-1114-bill-on-new-years-eve


and charged a woman 600 bucks in Montreal on the same night
http://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...passenger-hit-with-600-cab-fare-new-years-eve


it's the Wild Wild West libertarian charge anything with Uber

fuck Uber

Lol, so it's Uber's fault people can't read the words "Surge Pricing" or see the multiplier, or enter in their destination AND SEE A FUCKING PRICE ESTIMATE?

a warning, but no quote, no estimate

how can you go from 25 bucks to 1100 bucks, that is a disproportionate ''surge''

Yes it does. If you enter in a destination you get a quote/estimate. The only reason you wouldn't is if you don't enter in a destination. But there's no way the app would be able to magically guess the cost for you in that case

 

[gutter_trash]

The app gives you a gigantic surge pricing warning. These people are just stupid. Hell, Uber even sends out an email the day before high-demand nights like Halloween and New Years warning you about surge pricing and giving tips on how to avoid it.

a warning, but no quote, no estimate

how can you go from 25 bucks to 1100 bucks, that is a disproportionate ''surge''

Lol, so it's Uber's fault people can't read the words "Surge Pricing" or see the multiplier, or enter in their destination AND SEE A FUCKING PRICE ESTIMATE?

Libertarians everywhere!!!
there is no estimate

 

[Maxim726X]

Uber business model exploits drivers but only because 'Murica ties health coverage to employment. An actual social safety net would alleviate the most toxic aspect of the relationship between Uber and its drivers. Unfortunately for Uber full timers I don't see a real safety net or meaningful employment regulation affecting Uber before self driving cars make taxi drivers obsolete.

Basically this.

A single payer system would actually benefit the independent contractor in this case (I would know, I am one).

 

[Mael]

What is this empirical measurement of "drain"?

The ease of using one? I don't understand this statement.

EDIT* - Treating your drivers like shit is not a tolerable externality despite innovating the taxi industry.

A drain to the economy as the way taxis are regulated they represent a net loss in mobility for anyone using them.
How? For example they're making access to train station and airports difficult if you're not using them.
They're basically making cities with congestion problem worse by requiring exclusive access.
Uber is less of a drain to the customer as well as the experience in a taxi is pretty much the most expensive type of transportation there is with the shittiest service available.
They treat handicapped customers like luggage too.

Of course I'm talking about taxis in France, YMMV depending on your country of course.
That said fuck taxis.
I'll take a deal with the literal Devil over taxis.

 

[diffusionx]

I don't understand the hate from the far left over Uber. For the most part government regulation creates better things. In this one case, it made a horrible industry that needs to die. I guess for ideologues they can't let this go that maxims aren't always true. I am all for Uber drivers getting better benefits but the far left wants all the same regulations that made Taxi services horrible so that we have Uber just as terrible as regular taxis.

As a frequent traveler who spent way too many times in cabs with terrible service, ridiculous pricing and more than once thought I was going die in one either from the insane driver spouting out racist/insane stuff or the driving ability of the cabbie - no way will I ever take a cab without any other alternatives.

The problem with Uber is that they offload all risk and costs to the drivers and just operate as a middleman sucking up rents.

I also find it somewhat repellent, this idea that the new "sharing economy" is about desperate people selling cheap junky services to each other. It doesn't exactly scream "exceptional" to me. That's more ideological though.

I've had plenty of good experiences with regular cabs, even in cities I fully expected to have terrible cab service (like New Orleans). I think Uber provides a valuable service in underserved regions (even just outside of a major metro it can be hard and expensive to get car service), but I also think Uber supporters overstate the issues with regular taxi services.

 

[neshcom]

Uber is shit, they charged a man in Edmonton over 1100 bucks for a 20 minute ride on New Year's
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...warning-in-wake-of-1114-bill-on-new-years-eve


and charged a woman 600 bucks in Montreal on the same night
http://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...passenger-hit-with-600-cab-fare-new-years-eve


it's the Wild Wild West libertarian charge anything with Uber

fuck Uber

A 9x surge still puts the regular fare on that ride $1100 at over $110 for a 20 minute ride. That doesn't even sound right.

I get surge pricing. I was fine paying 3x on Halloween, but 9x is crazy.

 

[Neoweee]

a warning, but no quote, no estimate

how can you go from 25 bucks to 1100 bucks, that is a disproportionate ''surge''

There are Fare Estimates. He dropped off two friends along the way and didn't use it, and went full across the entire city in a roundabout way as a result.

There should be a cap on how much any ride can cost to prevent drunks from getting overcharged, but Uber does have basic tools in place.

I don't understand the hate from the far left over Uber. For the most part government regulation creates better things. In this one case, it made a horrible industry that needs to die. I guess for ideologues they can't let this go that maxims aren't always true. I am all for Uber drivers getting better benefits but the far left wants all the same regulations that made Taxi services horrible so that we have Uber just as terrible as regular taxis.

As a frequent traveler who spent way too many times in cabs with terrible service, ridiculous pricing and more than once thought I was going die in one either from the insane driver spouting out racist/insane stuff or the driving ability of the cabbie - no way will I ever take a cab without any other alternatives.

Also a lot of Uber drivers are former taxi drivers and they make more money because the corrupt taxi system has them giving away a good portion of their money. The only taxi drivers that don't want to move to Uber are the horrible people that know that with user feedback they will be booted from the system.

I don't get it, either. The left should hate the monopolies and oligopolies that taxi medallion systems inherently create. It is the most transparent and obvious example of how government influence raises the price above market rates for really spurious reasons.

 

[The Dutch Slayer]

Uber business model exploits drivers but only because 'Murica ties health coverage to employment. An actual social safety net would alleviate the most toxic aspect of the relationship between Uber and its drivers. Unfortunately for Uber full timers I don't see a real safety net or meaningful employment regulation affecting Uber before self driving cars make taxi drivers obsolete.

Here we go UBER is trash to their "employees" but only because the US system is the way it is right now.
If you had a "normal" social net and health care system this would not have been a problem in the first place.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Libertarians everywhere!!!
there is no estimate

I must've stumbled into a super secret section of the Uber app then

 

[kiguel182]

a warning, but no quote, no estimate

how can you go from 25 bucks to 1100 bucks, that is a disproportionate ''surge''


Libertarians everywhere!!!
there is no estimate

I tried to use uber on New Years and a pretty big notification pop up appeared telling me how big the surge was and if I wanted to accept it.

They didn't hide the surge or the fees. In the end I was free to pay it or not.

EDIT: Also yeah, there's a price estimate. It's pretty visible.

The surge exists because of their model and we can argue if it's a good thing or not but the warnings and price is all pretty clear.

 

[dankir]

16 years old and making 78k a year driving around. And he's complaining.

uhhhhhh.............

 

[SMattera]

If you complain about surge pricing, you obviously have no idea how the app works.

 

[Mael]

I don't get it, either. The left should hate the monopolies and oligopolies that taxi medallion systems inherently create. It is the most transparent and obvious example of how government influence raises the price above market rates for really spurious reasons.

In France, it's perfectly normal for the Left to like taxis.
The CEO of the biggest taxi company is the guy who handled the finance of the current president.
Corrupted to the bone, these guys.

 

[FallingEdge]

a warning, but no quote, no estimate

how can you go from 25 bucks to 1100 bucks, that is a disproportionate ''surge''


Libertarians everywhere!!!
there is no estimate

someone here doesnt know how to use the app

 

[Veritigo_X]

a warning, but no quote, no estimate

how can you go from 25 bucks to 1100 bucks, that is a disproportionate ''surge''


Libertarians everywhere!!!
there is no estimate

Whats with the libertarian comments? The app literally gives you a huge warning saying how much it will cost. There's nothing hidden about it. If I see huge surge pricing I just take a cheaper alternative (taxi, public transport, hoof it).

 

[Kinitari]

Uber drivers in my city seem significantly happier than their cab driving counterparts - many of them are ex cab drivers.

That might be because most cab drivers in the city have to pay 80-120 dollars to rent a vehicle a day, and pay for gas and tickets on said vehicle. They end up having to work 12 hour shifts, 6-7 days a week to make a livable wage, and are often skimming from the top by taking cash only.

I look at Uber like I look at Obamacare in the US - it's not crazy good or anything, but it's so much better than the alternative.

Finally - yeah... I think by know we know that surge is pretty explicit, and there are enough warnings (pre emptive emails, surge multipliers asking you to repeat the multiplier, estimates if you give a destination with big bold letters) that there really isn't anything else Uber can do except get rid of their surge model - but I actually really like the surge model, as it means I basically never have to wait for a cab.

 

[Exile20]

a warning, but no quote, no estimate

how can you go from 25 bucks to 1100 bucks, that is a disproportionate ''surge''


Libertarians everywhere!!!
there is no estimate

Please use the app first before typing but until you do

 

[kiguel182]

Employment being tied to health insurance in the US is a regional problem that doesn't exist in other countries. While Uber not offering it sucks it isn't as big of an issue in Canada or Europe.

Regarding the company itself, their model does have it's fair share of unethical stuff going around but the truth is that tradicional cabs ALSO have that plus their service is worse. When consumers are faced with this choosing Uber is just the lesser than two evils.

Personally I understand the shitty things Uber does but when on the other side you see cab drivers attacking people, setting stuff on fire or creating huge traffic jams to end Uber (instead of arguing for better legislation) they don't seem so bad.

 

[FriedConsole]

I've had plenty of good experiences with regular cabs, even in cities I fully expected to have terrible cab service (like New Orleans).

Oh you should report the terrible service. What's that no easy way to report a terrible cab ride? What's that the system is corrupt and if somebody has a medallion they paid hundreds of thousands for it is easier to get rid of a tenured professor than somebody with a medallion?

You want to pay with a credit card in a taxi? What the credit card machine is "broken"? Must be some bad luck because it seems like every taxi has a "broken" machine.

"5 minutes away"? Oh sorry I forgot in taxi cab language that actually means he will be there in 45 minutes.

Taxis need to die.

 

[Junior Mint]

I tried to use uber on New Years and a pretty big notification pop up appeared telling me how big the surge was and if I wanted to accept it.

They didn't hide the surge or the fees. In the end I was free to pay it or not.

EDIT: Also yeah, there's a price estimate. It's pretty visible.

The surge exists because of their model and we can argue if it's a good thing or not but the warnings and price is all pretty clear.

Exactly and at some point it's up to the user to use their common sense to decide that it might be a good idea to take a regular taxi instead when the app tells you SURGE PRICING IS ALMOST TEN TIMES THE REGULAR RATE.

 

[gutter_trash]

someone here doesnt know how to use the app

I don't use services that evade taxes, don't abide by labor laws and who take advantage of drunk New Year's Eve party goers

people talk about reducing drunk driving, then you get Uber drivers who take advantage of these drunk people

 

[kiguel182]

Exactly and at some point it's up to the user to use their common sense to decide that it might be a good idea to take a regular taxi instead when the app tells you SURGE PRICING IS ALMOST TEN TIMES THE REGULAR RATE.

Exactly, the app can't stop users from paying. And the warnings are pretty big and explicit.

The idea is to avoid the huge waiting times for public transports in those busy times and the users are the ones that can choose what they rather do.

 

[FallingEdge]

I don't use services that evade taxes, don't abide by labor laws and who take advantage of drunk New Year's Eve party goers

people talk about reducing drunk driving, then you get Uber drivers who take advantage of these drunk people

you should at least admit you are wrong about there being no estimates on the app

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I don't use services that evade taxes, don't abide by labor laws and who take advantage of drunk New Year's Eve party goers

people talk about reducing drunk driving, then you get Uber drivers who take advantage of these drunk people

Moving goalposts like a motherfucker.

What's next, should Uber require you to take a picture of your eyes and scan them for redness? Perhaps, make you complete a simple logic puzzle to detect inebriation? Tie into your bank account and let you know if the trip is financially advisable?!

 

[entremet]

I can never get cab in NYC being a Latino male of medium complexion.

As long as that's certain, I'm using these services. They've been fantastic.

Labor laws and such are up to the politicians, not the customers. I do vote for more progressive politicians generally, so I'm not completely apathetic.

 

[Veritigo_X]

I don't use services that evade taxes, don't abide by labor laws and who take advantage of drunk New Year's Eve party goers

people talk about reducing drunk driving, then you get Uber drivers who take advantage of these drunk people

Then maybe you shouldn't speak so matter of factly about something you know nothing about.

 

[Mael]

I don't use services that evade taxes, don't abide by labor laws and who take advantage of drunk New Year's Eve party goers

people talk about reducing drunk driving, then you get Uber drivers who take advantage of these drunk people

Good to know you're not using taxis either.
Public transportation is better anyway.

 

[FriedConsole]

Libertarians everywhere!!!
there is no estimate

As a card carrying liberal, to say Libertarians are the ones love who Uber is wrong. The taxi cab system is a Libertarian wet dream case study for how government regulation can ruin things. I rather stand behind other things and let this one go quietly than try to defend the mess.

 

[Neoweee]

I don't use services that evade taxes, don't abide by labor laws and who take advantage of drunk New Year's Eve party goers

people talk about reducing drunk driving, then you get Uber drivers who take advantage of these drunk people

Yes. We should go back to a system where they simply can't get a ride home because there aren't enough drivers out there, and instead make the dumb decision to drive home drunk.

Oh, and I sure hope you never, ever, ever eat in a restaurant, because boy, do I have some bad news for you...

 

[HammerOfThor]

16 years old and making 78k a year driving around. And he's complaining.

What are you even reading?

 

[Exile20]

I don't use services that evade taxes, don't abide by labor laws and who take advantage of drunk New Year's Eve party goers

people talk about reducing drunk driving, then you get Uber drivers who take advantage of these drunk people

How is Uber doing that?

Yes. We should go back to a system where they simply can't get a ride home because there aren't enough drivers out there, and instead make the dumb decision to drive home drunk.

Oh, and I sure hope you never, ever, ever eat in a restaurant, because boy, do I have some bad news for you...

I remember my college days late at night after parties where either no cab came and we had to call a friend to pick us up or they took over an hour to come and it was during winter and we froze our asses off.

 

[ClosingADoor]

16 years old and making 78k a year driving around. And he's complaining.

53 years old.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Uber is shit, they charged a man in Edmonton over 1100 bucks for a 20 minute ride on New Year's
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...warning-in-wake-of-1114-bill-on-new-years-eve


and charged a woman 600 bucks in Montreal on the same night
http://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...passenger-hit-with-600-cab-fare-new-years-eve


it's the Wild Wild West libertarian charge anything with Uber

fuck Uber

At this point,you can't feign ignorance when this happens. It's a well known thing and the app gives you three warnings about the pricing. These people are idiots. Or just want attention.

Fleece them for all I care.

a warning, but no quote, no estimate

how can you go from 25 bucks to 1100 bucks, that is a disproportionate ''surge''


Libertarians everywhere!!!
there is no estimate

Yes there is. It's on the front of the app. It's called 'Fare Estimator'.

 

[Joni]

Uber business model exploits drivers but only because 'Murica ties health coverage to employment. An actual social safety net would alleviate the most toxic aspect of the relationship between Uber and its drivers. Unfortunately for Uber full timers I don't see a real safety net or meaningful employment regulation affecting Uber before self driving cars make taxi drivers obsolete.

Their driver relationship is equally toxic in other countries with safety nets. You shouldn't need a safety net if you have a fulltime job.

 

[Draft]

This has started with taxis but you can bet everyone is looking at these models. I fully expect businesses to start to exploit this as soon as they can. The new sharing economy and all that shite. Where sharing means permanent precariousness for a vast swath of the poorest.

This problem doesn't fix itself with self driving cars it's just the starting gun.

Agreed. Technological advancements that make it easier to find gigs also make it easier for managers to contract out work. I'm not sure where this ends up but for right now "the man" gets the sweeter part of the bargain.

 

[ssharm02]

Does anyone here drive for uber? I am thinking about it as I work part time as a cashier and they are reducing our hours starting this month
How risky in the GTA area??

 

[Neoweee]

Uber's main benefit is simple logistics, with a single app pinging dozens of cars in your area and figuring out the quickest way for it to get to your location, and increasing pay dynamically when the market rate is too low to attract the needed number of drivers. Realistically, how many years behind them are traditional taxi services. Five? A full decade?

Does anyone here drive for uber? I am thinking about it as I work part time as a cashier and they are reducing our hours starting this month
How risky in the GTA area??

I'm not a driver, but it is pretty flexible with a low barrier to entry. Sign up and try it out.