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UK PoliGAF: General election thread of LibCon Coalitionage
- Thread starter Chinner
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Linkified said:
Are you serious?
The EU created the single market. There is no point in a single market if you let anyone trade without adhering to the rules of the single market. Prior to the single market you had to negotiate a variety of trade deals with different jurisdictions. That is inefficient and inhibits trade.
So under your proposal the UK leaves and tries to trade with Germany. Germany will tell you that you need to pay the duty or you can fuck off. The UK has no bargaining position outside of the EU, even the United States knows it place when it comes to threatening the EU about trade issues.
Zenith said:
Yes, I was thinking back to when I studied Economics and how we were told that free trade is trade between countries without the need for protective policies. Which I assumed the EU was beyond blocking trade with countries outside of the eurozone.
Lib Dems may of guaranteed it but when they get into power they will ignore it.
On the culture point, we need to protect it just as France and Germany protected theirs, however do I trust anyone to do that, nope.
travisbickle
Member
Linkified said:
Linkified said:
Oh..you're one of THOSE crazy people!
Linkified said:
A Referendum on the lisbon treaty and a referendum on the Euro are very different indeed. I'm struggling to envisage any party going back on the latter: the political fallout of ramming it through in what a rather euro-sceptic population would be destructive for said party; whereas Lisbon was just a few structural changes that few outside of the committed groups of pro and anti-europe people, few really cared about, and EU treaties historical precedent in this country of being pushed through without a referenda see: Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice that the parties could work; and the international fallout for us rejecting the lisbon treaty would be significant and undesirable as we would delay the timetable for ratification, whereas there isn't the same pressure on us to join the euro right now.
Dabookerman
Member
What culture is this?
Nexus Zero
Member
Linkified said:
Losing our culture? At the end of the day we're still going to be beer-swilling pie-stuffing xenophobes no matter how much power we give to the EU. I'd say losing our "culture" should be the very least of your worries.
How uninformed can you be??Linkified said:
An Englishwoman heads the EU's foreign service. The Commission is dominated by people who share the anglo-saxon economic stance. The English have a disproportionately high representation in the civil service. We have our elected officials in the European Parliament. We have our representation in the Council of Ministers. Our influence is huge, even with us not participating in a number of projects.
And the absolute majority of laws that come out of Europe DO favour us; you just don't hear about that because you don't fucking want to.
You can't have studied very long then because we learned the stages of economic union in the first year [of seven...].
Free Trade is a nebulous term; do you mean no tariffs? Fine, then how do you deal with unfair advantages caused by subsidy? Do you mean tariff and subsidy coordination? Then how do you deal with the fact that individual states can use standards compliance to attain unfair advantage? Do you mean tariff and subsidy coordination with harmonised standards? Then how do you deal with the fact that you don't have a free market without free movement of labour and entrepreneurship? And by the time you have all that, how the fuck do you organise that without a democratic political structure - just like we have with the current EU.
The EU is as it is because all states want the advantages of:
1) Completely free and undistorted trade.
2) Greater negotiating power on the world stage.
3) Greater judicial coordination.
4) Enhanced security through military strategic cooperation and exploitation of economies of scale.
And in order to get the above you need a layer of government to supervise. In order to legitimise the above you need a democratic structure. The EU has both.
I came across the below a while ago when I was reading for my degree. Katrin Schmidt hit the nail on the head when she argued that it was European integration which saved the nation-state following the second great war. In particular though, the EU spends a lot of time trying to preserve local cultural traditions. Even in things as obscure as regional food naming rights; just last month MEPs have lobbied to give PGI status so that you couldn't call a Cornish Pasty such without it coming from Cornwall, etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/3640113721/ref=nosim/gettextbooks_uk-sc-21
Osbourne and Cameron comment on election strategy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2010/apr/18/general-election-2010
I get the feeling this tactic is going to upset their base quite a lot, who have seen a massive lead evaporate and Clegg dominating the headlines in the last week, and were critical of Cameron not going in hard enough on his rivals in the debate. It is also a hard strategy to reconcile with them spending the last year shouting about 'BROKEN BRITAIN', 'WE ARE GOING BANKRUPT', and more recently the (admittedly excellent) Saatchi and Saatchi ad campaign along with weeks of obsessing over the 'TAX ON JOBS'.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2010/apr/18/general-election-2010
I get the feeling this tactic is going to upset their base quite a lot, who have seen a massive lead evaporate and Clegg dominating the headlines in the last week, and were critical of Cameron not going in hard enough on his rivals in the debate. It is also a hard strategy to reconcile with them spending the last year shouting about 'BROKEN BRITAIN', 'WE ARE GOING BANKRUPT', and more recently the (admittedly excellent) Saatchi and Saatchi ad campaign along with weeks of obsessing over the 'TAX ON JOBS'.
Empty said:
And what are your feelings on it from a non-political standpoint? I mean, you've never really struck me as one to be particularly concerned with the negative impact of any Tory political manoeuvres. It's strikes me as odd that you suddenly highlight all these possibly negative implicationa of what strikes me as a worthy move.
I feel like 're-doubling the positive' is the wrong move for the tories, however i also dont think its what they'll actually do. They cant come out and say their tactic is to make people afraid of a hung parliament, but Cameron has already started in a couple of speeches, it's clearly what they intend to do.
travisbickle
Member
Chinner said:
He doesn't care about culture, he probably watches Friends, eats McDonalds, and goes to Starbucks. What he means to say is he's sick of brown people walking down his street like they own the place!
sohois said:
I don't see it as unworthy, quite the opposite in fact, it is undeniably positive. I'm not so much concerned as merely interested in the political ramifications of these moves, because i'm into politics like that. I have suspected for a while that the conservative party only tolerates some of Cameron's more socially liberal positions -- compare his manifesto with Hague's and Howard's to see significant and admirable differences in tone and policy-- as well as his strong emphasis stuff like the environment and more pr centered approach, because he could be their own Blair-like figure who will finally lead them back to power. As the polls change, and as a chance emerges that Cameron might not be our next prime minister, i'm interested in seeing how the internal party dynamics change with that pressure, and how Cameron and the party react to those changes as i find it a potentially intriguing story and want to move the thread towards talking about the tory reaction rather than swooning over poll results and bickering over the eu.
travisbickle said:
What... what...the...fuck.
I care about our culture like making sure we don't lose the aspects like our currecny etc. Not cared about the color of the skin. Actually I think the governement could do alot more to protect vunerable asian women from forced marriages etc.
Empty said:
It has served us fine over the years why ditch it now. Plus I feel that any government that got in would mean the exchange rate to the euro would instead of being a good exchange rate for us, the European Central Bank always seems to be way more conservative over allowing any inflation into the system. Heck if they announced each country could set its own interest rates then maybe I would come round on the idea.
Do you think our culture deteriorated when we decimalised our currency in the 70s and moved away from the shilling/half-crown/farthing? I understand arguments about why people think the euro will be bad for our economy fine, and they are perfectly justifiable, i'm just really struggling to wrap my head around your currency relating to culture point. No-one is advocating changing currency for it's own sake, people argue the economic benefits and weigh them against the downsides, but you are the only person arguing that keeping our currency for it's own sake is worthy because of it's cultural importance, outside of the economic and practical benefits of keeping the same, and i'm not sure why.
Linkified said:
I don't know how things like "currecny" fits in with culture.
From wikipedia:
-Excellence of taste in the fine arts and humanities, also known as high culture
-An integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning
-The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group
Dark Machine
Member
wave dial said:
It probably comes under the last one, values and practices. Regardless, the £ is not exactly something I'm really bothered about. Hell on most coins they have unique designs based on where they were minted (Spain's has their King, France's has Libertie, Fraternitie Equalitie). The notes should have the same really, but I can see the logic in keeping them the same to help prevent fraud. To be honest, whether I buy my DVD's and Blu-Rays and games in £ or doesn't bother me too much, when the £ was strong before the recession it was a good thing we wern't in the , but now...doesn't seem to make a great deal of difference. There's tons of economic issues, and I'm sure there'll be a referendum on it, the LDs guarenteed it if they get in, and no one would get away with not having one on this issue.
RustyNails
Member
I'm from US PoliGAF, and just wanted to take a peek in UK PoliGAF. I knew that #1 topic in peoples' mind is "dem brown peoples!!", and needless to say it turned out to be true, judging by the discussion here.
All I want to say is, mixing of cultures works, and different cultures can live side by side. Just spend 1 hour in New York City, and all your fears will be proven wrong.
All I want to say is, mixing of cultures works, and different cultures can live side by side. Just spend 1 hour in New York City, and all your fears will be proven wrong.
RustyNails said:
Being from London myself I've never really experienced multiculturalism.
In any case, as I'm ignorant on the matter, can anyone tell me of the benefits of the Euro? I thought that the current economic problems in Europe have highlighted just how bad joining it would be.
Edit: I'm sorry to sound rude, but please try to be less condescending.
I know you mean well but that came off condescending as fuck. You really think Britain is unexperienced when it comes to different cultures intermingling? We've been doing it since long before your country was around dude. :lolRustyNails said:
What happened to the better man gets the job? Does that not apply if you're poor, since obviously anyone could do poor people jobs? Or is it that you just don't think they should be here in the first place, to keep the jobs for British citizens alone?
You often find that multiple cultures dont interact with each other in the UK. They create little pocket countries for themselves rather than acclimatize to the UK in general.
I'm all for multiculturalism, but what we have in the UK is not that. People from multiple cultures wouldn't be so fearful of each other in the UK, if they were more open to each other.
I suppose it will change, but it will be slow and it'll involve several generations of immigrants from those various cultures (and thus those self-contained pockets) before they start reaching out and interacting with each other.
I'm all for multiculturalism, but what we have in the UK is not that. People from multiple cultures wouldn't be so fearful of each other in the UK, if they were more open to each other.
I suppose it will change, but it will be slow and it'll involve several generations of immigrants from those various cultures (and thus those self-contained pockets) before they start reaching out and interacting with each other.
If anything it highlighted the advantages of the single currency.gerg said:
Had Greece been outside the Euro it's debt crisis would have led to an second "Iceland", where the currency plummeted. Indeed, what was Iceland's first response to the global economic crisis? To apply to join the EU as a means of adopting the Euro.
There are some things you can't do within the Euro area - set state-level monetary policy for instance... but I've always argued that monetary policy is lazy, and that fiscal policy [through flex tax and subsidies] is the better means of controling inflationary pressure.
But the short list?
1) No exchange rate risk for businesses.
2) Price transparency for consumers.
3) Elimination of transaction costs.
4) Increased integration and efficiency of financial services as a result of the above.
5) HUUUUGE benefits of 'reserve currency' status [effectively makes running a deficit less painful].
RustyNails
Member
Its kinda the case in US as well. In Chicago atleast, there are different ethnic alcoves and neighborhoods. There's Polish neighborhood, Arab neighborhood, Mexican, Irish, Indian, Pakistani, etc etc. You know this because as soon as you enter one neighborhood, you see their distinct restaurants, clothing stores and people walking around. But that's not saying that people from these neighborhoods are only found in these neighborhoods. They're all over the place, with the majority of them being located in these dense population centers usually in the city.Xavien said:
Edit: There's also a distinctly Jewish neighborhood directly adjacent to a distinctly Muslim (south Asian) neighborhood on Devon Ave.
I don't mean to be condescending though. I know about the anti-multicultarism sentiment currently plaguing Euro politics. Just wanted to point out that it worked here in US without much problem. They come to this land and we welcome them, and in return they open their Kebab joints and Hookah bars.
Yeah well we've been doing it for the past 300 yearsParts said:
RustyNails said:
Perhaps.
However, not only does the UK =/= Europe, but you make it sound like there aren't immigrants coming into England and Scotland and Wales and setting up their own kabab shops and hookah bars.
Yeah well we've been doing it for the past 300 years
Tell that to the Native Americans.
@ Sir Fragula: Thanks. My current impression was that having a single currency has helped the UK through the recession.
RustyNails
Member
Well you're a party pooper!gerg said:
Are you kidding! Greece has exported all its debt to the rest of the Europe. Greece is the definition of why a single currency like the euro is the wrong thing to do. I would be happy for the UK to join the Euro if the European "PIGS" werent spending more than the earn. In a few decades when European economy has converged more, but not now and not in the near future.
defel1111 said:
Err exporting the debt to the others so the collective can handle it rather than a single nation state is the advantage. It is called risk minimisation. This is a MUCH better scenario than just having Greece default since the cascade failures that result would end up costing far more than bridge loans being handed out to the PIGS. Meanwhile Soros sits on the side, talking shit and pining for the days when he could ditch a state out of the ERM.
Greece actually lied about the debt it had. It makes the case for greater authority given to the ECB so it can actually have observers in the treasury departments of Eurozone members.
Sir Fragula said:
You cannot just totally dismiss monetary policy like that. It makes you out to be just as bad as the old monetarists who would argue the opposite. We have tried to control inflationary pressure through largely fiscal measures for the past 50 years, and it got us nowhere. There has never been a period of sustained low unemployment and inflation in UK economic history as long as there has been since the introduction of the independent Bank of England. We would certainly not be recovering from this recession as well as we are had interest rates not been set as low as they are, and we even have our automatic counterbalance of the falling pound to push even more money into the system.
Imagine a future high inflation period in the UK, while France and Germany experience the opposite. What does the European central bank do? It must operate in favour of the majority, so without doubt in this situation the UK would be left out in the cold. Or maybe they'd try to throw us a fiscal subsidy like Greece when we no longer have the power to deal with the issue on our own.
Personally, I am still unsold on the Euro, though I lean to being in favour of it. I consider myself extremely pro-EU, but I would never discount the fact that there are significant arguments against joining the currency (just as you've listed significant arguments for joining). It's all about weighing it up, and the balance isn't very clearly tipped in one side's favour.
Enosh
Member
they in your case being higly educated progressive muslim that know english, are wiling to adapt to the local culture and fall mostly under the middle classRustyNails said:
they in the european case being fundamentalist muslim with a low education, no skill of the local language and no will to even adapt to the existing culture
you see the problem with saying "multicultarism works in place a so it has to work in place b" right?
the demographic of especialy mostly muslim immigrants to the US is compleatly difrent from the one of the people comming to Europe, the culture clash is much higher due to all those factors
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