-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
UK PoliGAF: Should Clegg go?
- Thread starter Huw_Dawson
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
kurtrussell
Banned
I feel bad for him. He did what was needed at the time and how quickly people forget the dysfunctional mess of a country that Labour left us all with. Despite the fact that he's played Ying to the Tory Yang and helped moderate the decisions to ultimately be satisfied that he leaves the UK in a much better place than when he started, he's destined to become nothing more than a political footnote and his own career, outside of his LBC gig, is pretty much dead and buried post-2015.
Not really, the Scotland office minister would probably resign. Doesn't effect Cameron and co. They know Scotland hates them already regardless of a yes or no.
It will possibly have a pretty big effect on Cameron's popularity in the rest of the UK if he's seen as the Prime Minister who let the union fall apart.
I feel bad for him. He did what was needed at the time and how quickly people forget the dysfunctional mess of a country that Labour left us all with. Despite the fact that he's played Ying to the Tory Yang and helped moderate the decisions to ultimately be satisfied that he leaves the UK in a much better place than when he started, he's destined to become nothing more than a political footnote and his own career, outside of his LBC gig, is pretty much dead and buried post-2015.
The UK won't be in a better place when he leaves than when he became deputy-PM though.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
Dropping Charles Kennedy was the worst thing the LD's ever did, drinking problem and all.
I don't really see why, it'll affect his 'legacy' I guess. I don't really think the rest of the UK public really gives a shit what we decide to do. it'll also have the happy knock on effect of removing a labour heartland for the tories.It will possibly have a pretty big effect on Cameron's popularity in the rest of the UK if he's seen as the Prime Minister who let the union fall apart.
TitusGroan
Banned
The problem I have with the Lib Dems isn't that they got into bed with the Tories. That was a given after the election results. Conservatives got the biggest share of the vote (even if not a majority) and were therefore always going to be in charge.
The problem I have is how completely and utterly spineless they became once they got into power. When the Tories were throwing raising fees, threatening to sell off all of Britain's forests, and fucking around with the NHS, the Lib Dems had the power to be a voice of clarity and call them on their shit. When Ian Duncan-Smith was cobbling together his utter catastrophe of a work and welfare scheme, they more than anyone were in a position to ask for him to be sacked and someone more responsible and qualified to step in.
If the Lib-Dems had actually used their position to be a moderating influence and voice of reason, they'd be more respected. Instead, they became cowardly apologists for every badly thought out, pernicious, ill-spirited scheme the Tories could come up with, and that is what destroyed their credibility.
The problem I have is how completely and utterly spineless they became once they got into power. When the Tories were throwing raising fees, threatening to sell off all of Britain's forests, and fucking around with the NHS, the Lib Dems had the power to be a voice of clarity and call them on their shit. When Ian Duncan-Smith was cobbling together his utter catastrophe of a work and welfare scheme, they more than anyone were in a position to ask for him to be sacked and someone more responsible and qualified to step in.
If the Lib-Dems had actually used their position to be a moderating influence and voice of reason, they'd be more respected. Instead, they became cowardly apologists for every badly thought out, pernicious, ill-spirited scheme the Tories could come up with, and that is what destroyed their credibility.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
I don't really see why, it'll affect his 'legacy' I guess. I don't really think the rest of the UK public really gives a shit what we decide to do. it'll also have the happy knock on effect of removing a labour heartland for the tories.
Cameron would immediately become the worst ranked PM of all time if the Union collapsed under his watch. Whilst many people in the rest of the UK might have an ambivalent attitude towards Scotland leaving the Union, there's not much positive you can say about the leader of a country that led to it breaking up.
The problem I have with the Lib Dems isn't that they got into bed with the Tories. That was a given after the election results. Conservatives got the biggest share of the vote (even if not a majority) and were therefore always going to be in charge.
The problem I have is how completely and utterly spineless they became once they got into power. When the Tories were throwing raising fees, threatening to sell off all of Britain's forests, and fucking around with the NHS, the Lib Dems had the power to be a voice of clarity and call them on their shit. When Ian Duncan-Smith was cobbling together his utter catastrophe of a work and welfare scheme, they more than anyone were in a position to ask for him to be sacked and someone more responsible and qualified to step in.
If the Lib-Dems had actually used their position to be a moderating influence and voice of reason, they'd be more respected. Instead, they became cowardly apologists for every badly thought out, pernicious, ill-spirited scheme the Tories could come up with, and that is what destroyed their credibility.
The Lib Dems couldn't do a damn thing. They were doomed as soon as they agreed to the coalition. If they stood up to the Tories:
1) They'd be put in a position where they'd be forced to go all-in, potentially bringing down the government with it and causing a snap election where the Tories and the media would paint them as a disruptive influence who "destroyed our stability" (or whatever). Combined with the alienation of their core voters and general dislike from everyone else, they'd get eviscerated in the polls and may be responsible for delivering a Tory majority.
2) Or they'd simply fold under the pressure, and be confirmed as the weak, spineless, ineffectual "this would be a good idea, sir, please consider it" Tory lapdogs that they are.
Neither outcome would do them any favours. The best game they could have played in 2010 was letting the Tories rule as a minority party.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Cameron would immediately become the worst ranked PM of all time if the Union collapsed under his watch. Whilst many people in the rest of the UK might have an ambivalent attitude towards Scotland leaving the Union, there's not much positive you can say about the leader of a country that led to it breaking up.
Still wouldn't be worse then gordon brown
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
My view on the Lib Dems is come the next General Election they will be back to obscurity and watching from the sidelines. They're done, regardless of who leads them.
Pretty much. Had they turned down the coalition offer, they could very well have grown to be the main contender for the next election, as Labour have failed to really capitalise on any of the Tory's fuckups.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm not sure why people think Cameron would become the worst PM ever if Scotland left. This wouldn't be the first time a part of the Union left - does anyone remember who the PM was when Ireland gained independence? Would it soften the blow if we kept hold of a bit of the Southern lowlands??
CyclopsRock
Member
Pretty much. Had they turned down the coalition offer, they could very well have grown to be the main contender for the next election, as Labour have failed to really capitalise on any of the Tory's fuckups.
You really think so? Given all the turmoil of the 70's with the Unions and nationalised industry, with the 80's, Thatcher and privatisation, with the early 90's black wednesday crash and the desolation of Labour as a proper left-wing force, then the largest recession in living memory in 2008... During none of this did the Liberals/SDP/Lib Dems even sniff at power. What is it about 2015, with its recovering economy and ineffectual-but-more-left-than-recently Labour party makes you think the Lib Dems would even come close to grabbing power sans coalition?
He just sits there in PMQ's and nods like the Churchill dog.
Perfect summary frankly.
You really think so? Given all the turmoil of the 70's with the Unions and nationalised industry, with the 80's, Thatcher and privatisation, with the early 90's black wednesday crash and the desolation of Labour as a proper left-wing force, then the largest recession in living memory in 2008... During none of this did the Liberals/SDP/Lib Dems even sniff at power. What is it about 2015, with its recovering economy and ineffectual-but-more-left-than-recently Labour party makes you think the Lib Dems would even come close to grabbing power sans coalition?
The best chance the Lib Dems had of winning a General Election was to change the electoral system. It was the basis of the coalition and a lot of Lib Dem supporters may well have excused everything that they have done as part of the coalition but since that failed at referendum (and was a weak form of electoral reform at that) it really has all been for nothing.
AFollowerNotALeader
Member
The thing that amazes me about the complaints about the Lib Dems going back on their promises... is that they did exactly the same thing in Scotland when they went into coalition with Labour. What did people expect?
To be honest, the only good thing that came out of the EU elections was the total destruction of the Lib Dems. The irony is that the first past the post system they fought against may be the only thing that saves them some seats in parliament come the next election.
To be fair, some good things have come out of them being in coalition with the Tories, they have to a small extent mitigated some of the insanity of the Tory party. Tax cuts have focused on increasing the personal allowance which helps everyone, rather than drastically cutting the top rate which you *know* is what the Tories would have done. And does anyone really think that the equal marriage bill would have happened in a Tory government?
Clegg is responsible for the disastrous strategy of fighting "for" Europe in a country that is largely at least somewhat skeptical, so from that standpoint he should go, even if it was the right stance morally to take. Leading a party is to some extent to be responsible for steering the party to success and I don't think anyone could argue that he's done that.
To be honest, the only good thing that came out of the EU elections was the total destruction of the Lib Dems. The irony is that the first past the post system they fought against may be the only thing that saves them some seats in parliament come the next election.
To be fair, some good things have come out of them being in coalition with the Tories, they have to a small extent mitigated some of the insanity of the Tory party. Tax cuts have focused on increasing the personal allowance which helps everyone, rather than drastically cutting the top rate which you *know* is what the Tories would have done. And does anyone really think that the equal marriage bill would have happened in a Tory government?
Clegg is responsible for the disastrous strategy of fighting "for" Europe in a country that is largely at least somewhat skeptical, so from that standpoint he should go, even if it was the right stance morally to take. Leading a party is to some extent to be responsible for steering the party to success and I don't think anyone could argue that he's done that.
QuicheFontaine
Member
The thing that amazes me about the complaints about the Lib Dems going back on their promises... is that they did exactly the same thing in Scotland when they went into coalition with Labour. What did people expect?
To be honest, the only good thing that came out of the EU elections was the total destruction of the Lib Dems. The irony is that the first past the post system they fought against may be the only thing that saves them some seats in parliament come the next election.
To be fair, some good things have come out of them being in coalition with the Tories, they have to a small extent mitigated some of the insanity of the Tory party. Tax cuts have focused on increasing the personal allowance which helps everyone, rather than drastically cutting the top rate which you *know* is what the Tories would have done. And does anyone really think that the equal marriage bill would have happened in a Tory government?
Clegg is responsible for the disastrous strategy of fighting "for" Europe in a country that is largely at least somewhat skeptical, so from that standpoint he should go, even if it was the right stance morally to take. Leading a party is to some extent to be responsible for steering the party to success and I don't think anyone could argue that he's done that.
Well that's true, but, in fairness, they were campaigning against FPTP to endorse AV in the referendum. And I think they would do better with AV, so I can't blame them.
But it is somewhat ironic that if they'd've managed to somehow get PR in the referendum, and won, then yeah they'd more than likely be left flat on their arse behind UKIP (and possibly the Greens at this point?).
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
Neither outcome would do them any favours. The best game they could have played in 2010 was letting the Tories rule as a minority party.
Yup, this would have been the smart long-term play, but the current Lib Dem leadership doesn't exactly strike me as long-term thinkers.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
No. Clegg and the current Lib Dem front bench need to own the losses of 2015. The party should then remove them all regardless of the outcome of the next election. Removing Clegg now just leaves behind a poisoned chalice for the person who replaces him.
I'm sure the country would be worse under a Tory government than the coalition we got. While Clegg made a political mistake in joining the coalition (there was no way the LDs could have benefited from it), England is better off for it.A Tory minority government or a Labour+LibDem minority government both would have preserved the integrity of Clegg's 2010 campaign better than the coalition. I don't blame Clegg for taking the coalition offer (in order in part to prove in subsequent elections that the LibDems aren't a sideshow party, they're ready for primetime, and that they're able to lead if they are elected), but I think the problem is that in showing they were ready to lead, they also showed that they were mostly a party about winning rather than a party about principles. This is not uncommon in any democracy, of course, but I don't think it bodes well for next election now that Labour is at least a little bit out of the proverbial doghouse and refreshed.
A Tory minority government or a Labour+LibDem minority government both would have preserved the integrity of Clegg's 2010 campaign better than the coalition. I don't blame Clegg for taking the coalition offer (in order in part to prove in subsequent elections that the LibDems aren't a sideshow party, they're ready for primetime, and that they're able to lead if they are elected), but I think the problem is that in showing they were ready to lead, they also showed that they were mostly a party about winning rather than a party about principles. This is not uncommon in any democracy, of course, but I don't think it bodes well for next election now that Labour is at least a little bit out of the proverbial doghouse and refreshed.
wait stump are you british
They capitulated on pretty much everything but taxable income and the House of Lords.I'm sure the country would be worse under a Tory government than the coalition we got. While Clegg made a political mistake in joining the coalition (there was no way the LDs could have benefited from it), England is better off for it.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Deputy Prime Minister as the NHS was dismantled, lied to the electorate on tuition fees, betrayed party supporters by bedding the Tories.
I'd like him to go, but it would serve no purpose unless someone as charismatic as Charles Kennedy stepped in the gap and fought for the party moderates/left.
Yeah, the Lib Dems are pretty much dead either way after the past four years.
I doubt a new leader, no matter how charismatic, would be able to remove the stink from the party. It's going to take years before it happens and other parties, most likely UKIP, will fill their protest vote void in the meantime.
CyclopsRock
Member
The best chance the Lib Dems had of winning a General Election was to change the electoral system. It was the basis of the coalition and a lot of Lib Dem supporters may well have excused everything that they have done as part of the coalition but since that failed at referendum (and was a weak form of electoral reform at that) it really has all been for nothing.
But that's a cycle that never ends. At least they had a shot at changing it - without being in government they can't change the system, and without changing the system they can't be in a government and have control. Ok, so they helped pass tuition fees (which imo is a huge red herring - if they'd made the Tories compromise to a graduate tax, I don't think they'd get much stick when in reality they're basically the same thing) and stuff, but they also got some Liberal policies passed - and isn't that the point? Aren't these people in this to change things, to get laws passed that they want passed? They are outnumbered 6-1 in the coalition; They've done fine.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
The best chance the Lib Dems had of winning a General Election was to change the electoral system. It was the basis of the coalition and a lot of Lib Dem supporters may well have excused everything that they have done as part of the coalition but since that failed at referendum (and was a weak form of electoral reform at that) it really has all been for nothing.
The greatest testament to the Alternative Vote referendum is that I forgot it even happened. That's the legacy of the Liberal Democrats right there.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.