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UK scientists being dropped from EU research projects

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Jackpot said:
Why would a paper be impacted by this? They have no long-term funding consequences. Once its submitted the only thing to decide is who presents it at whatever conference. Not to mention all the emails and drafts he must have would make it open & shut.
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Don't think the paper has been completed/submitted yet, ongoing research that he's been contributing to. Don't even know if it's legal to do this, or whether he'll refuse.
 
I know my brothers already thinking of going abroad, after spending years getting his PhD. Doesn't want to but may have to.
 
Retsudo said:
Its like breaking up with someone for stupid reasons, forgetting that you have a lease and a bunch of other stuff to pay together.

The other party will try and break things permanently as soon as possible, because the trust is gone, and the faster you start to heal alone the better.
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That still doesn't mean you can ignore the law. In this case it would be like you having a cosigned lease with a GF/BF. Even if you breakup they can't be forced to move out since they have the legal right to live there as well. Until A50 is invoked and completed the UK is a member of the EU and has to be treated as such legally. However it is definitely legal to alter future projects to not include UK researchers.

ultratruman said:
Don't think the paper has been completed/submitted yet, ongoing research that he's been contributing to. Don't even know if it's legal to do this, or whether he'll refuse.
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I don't think it's legal which is why they are asking him to remove it himself. However academia is a cutthroat place so I wouldn't be surprised if they have insinuated that they would not welcome him for future projects if he didn't comply.
 
It's pretty sad. In the long term I'm sure the UK will sign up to the Horizon 2020 equivalent after Brexit, but until then there's just tons of uncertainty. Switzerland, Norway and even Israel are in H2020, so certainly a post-Brexit UK that currently gets way more than it puts into the program would join as well. Joining does require the free movement of scientists, but hopefully you can slip that one past the bigots.

Personally I was hoping to go to Edinburgh after graduating, since it would be easy for my wife to find work in the UK as well. After the Brexit clusterfuck I'm thinking might as well go to the US.
 
Wereroku said:
By the EU's own rules and regulations the UK isn't supposed to be treated as a non EU member until the articles are invoked and the process complete. The fact that any agency is doing this is discriminatory and against their own rules. From the OP it seems like they may be asking him to remove his credits voluntarily because they can't do it legally. I would like to know how much pressure his research partners are putting on him and I think he should report them. Future projects can be planned around the exit since that make sense but trying to strip someone of their credit on an ongoing or completed project is ridiculous.
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But this is real life and we cannot expect scientists, who have to plan very large projects with very limited budgets, to make those plans with blind acceptance of the status-quo until we one day invoke a50.

They know the turmoil a50 will cause to any project that's mid-life when it happens, so it's probably for the best (both the researchers and the project itself) if they think ahead. Remember, we're in uncharted waters - this has never happened before and a50 is very vague, so nobody really knows what to expect.
 
Achire said:
It's pretty sad. In the long term I'm sure the UK will sign up to the Horizon 2020 equivalent after Brexit, but until then there's just tons of uncertainty. Switzerland, Norway and even Israel are in H2020, so certainly a post-Brexit UK that currently gets way more than it puts into the program would join as well. Joining does require the free movement of scientists, but hopefully you can slip that one past the bigots.

Personally I was hoping to go to Edinburgh after graduating, since it would be easy for my wife to find work in the UK as well. After the Brexit clusterfuck I'm thinking might as well go to the US.
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Don't worry we'll elect Trump and you won't have to worry about coming here anymore.
 
Zaph said:
But this is real life and we cannot expect scientists, who have to plan very large projects with very limited budgets, to make those plans with blind acceptance of the status-quo until we one day invoke a50.

They know the turmoil a50 will cause to any project that's mid-life when it happens, so it's probably for the best (both the researchers and the project itself) if they think ahead. Remember, we're in uncharted waters - this has never happened before and a50 is very vague, so nobody really knows what to expect.
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Real life also has to follow the laws though. The EU scientific community will look worse if they start punishing UK scientists on projects that will be completed long before the exit occurs like in the OP's case. As I said I understand new projects taking this stand but that scientists could be punished on ongoing projects that won't be effected is disgusting and short sighted.

soqquatto said:
everyone is bound to lose from this. I wonder how the people who voted leave are feeling now.
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Most of them weren't scientists so they probably don't really care. To them the pound has recovered and that's all they will look at. Just like people in the US who vote Trump without bothering to think about how disgusting of a person he is.
 
Wereroku said:
Real life also has to follow the laws though. The EU scientific community will look worse if they start punishing UK scientists on projects that will be completed long before the exit occurs like in the OP's case. As I said I understand new projects taking this stand but that scientists could be punished on ongoing projects that won't be effected is disgusting and short sighted.
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Blunt answer: Nobody cares. They are not under any laws requiring them to include UK scientists in projects or keep them in collaborations and they are not going to. Asking someone to remove themselves from a paper isn't illegal. Dickish if the only reason is because of brexit? Sure. But neither you nor I know the circumstances of that one particular example.
 
soqquatto said:
everyone is bound to lose from this. I wonder how the people who voted leave are feeling now.
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You still see (at least online) a very vocal "leave" supporter base. These people will only change their tune when they personally start to suffer the effects of their decision (even as they see everyone else around in the shit). Even then some will probably be too proud to admit...
 
Really not fair on these researchers, but this has to serve as a wake up call for people who think Britain is the stronger trade negotiator in the upcoming talks. The EU can easily take entire industries -and the talent that is within them- this way.
 
Wereroku said:
Real life also has to follow the laws though. The EU scientific community will look worse if they start punishing UK scientists on projects that will be completed long before the exit occurs like in the OP's case. As I said I understand new projects taking this stand but that scientists could be punished on ongoing projects that won't be effected is disgusting and short sighted.
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When the UK leaves the EU...
- the UK will stop funding EU research projects
- so the total available budget will drop

So, basically, when the UK leaves the EU, the *UK* will effectively pull the funding from UK researchers.

The UK would need to form an agreement with the EU to continue co-operation, a job for the vast negotiation division of the UK government.
 
Matt said:
This both sucks (for British researchers) and makes perfect sense, though I have no idea why someone would be asked to take their name off a paper they have already contributed to.
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Yeah, I can kind of understand - maybe - about projects that will be multi-year, stretching out past Brexit itself if there is a fear about funding issues or whatever, but for work already done and published etc. I don't understand why anyone would be asked to disassociate themselves from it.
 
Dougald said:
My mother in law suggested, on hearing that my wife lost her job, that they were using Brexit as an excuse and it's all some sort of conspiracy
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Not sure if mother in law serious...
realistic_cartoon_characters_3d_real_life_27_570.jpg
 
Linkstrikesback said:
Blunt answer: Nobody cares. They are not under any laws requiring them to include UK scientists in projects or keep them in collaborations and they are not going to. Asking someone to remove themselves from a paper isn't illegal. Dickish if the only reason is because of brexit? Sure. But neither you nor I know the circumstances of that one particular example.
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I'm not saying it's illegal to ask them to remove themselves. I just think it is a bad move and is punishing them unfairly. As I stated before I can understand why new projects would remove UK based scientists but I don't understand why a mostly completed project or even an in progress project would remove a contributor when any exit from the EU would be more than 2 years away.

dumbo said:
When the UK leaves the EU...
- the UK will stop funding EU research projects
- so the total available budget will drop

So, basically, when the UK leaves the EU, the *UK* will effectively pull the funding from UK researchers.

The UK would need to form an agreement with the EU to continue co-operation, a job for the vast negotiation division of the UK government.
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Yes but what does that have to do with already completed/funded projects? This is about them removing people from completed projects.
 
Zaph said:
Would be hilarious, and deserved, if a Brexit causes a reverse brain-drain in the UK - with our best minds jumping ship the moment the right opportunity arises.

All other developed nations trying to attract talent, while we're doing our best to get rid of ours.
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...Isn't this a normal brain drain?
 
Wereroku said:
Real life also has to follow the laws though. The EU scientific community will look worse if they start punishing UK scientists on projects that will be completed long before the exit occurs like in the OP's case. As I said I understand new projects taking this stand but that scientists could be punished on ongoing projects that won't be effected is disgusting and short sighted.
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EU isn't exactly known for being hardcore about following their own rules.
 
Wereroku said:
By the EU's own rules and regulations the UK isn't supposed to be treated as a non EU member until the articles are invoked and the process complete. The fact that any agency is doing this is discriminatory and against their own rules. From the OP it seems like they may be asking him to remove his credits voluntarily because they can't do it legally. I would like to know how much pressure his research partners are putting on him and I think he should report them. Future projects can be planned around the exit since that make sense but trying to strip someone of their credit on an ongoing or completed project is ridiculous.
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The funding programs for the EU are usually competitive (for example, look at the H2020 programm), which means that several consortiums (formed by research institutions, universities and companies from different countries) are competing for the money (tied to a call) between them. There is no new EU rule saying that the researchers from the UK can't be a member of a consortium, but right now they are seem like a liability by the other researchers, because nobody know what is going to happen with them. A lot of funding and the future of different research groups is at stake at these proposals, so the project leaders are not including UK members to maximize the possibility of getting the money. It sucks, but is completely normal.
 
Nirolak said:
...Isn't this a normal brain drain?
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Probably true, by reverse I was highlighting the irony of us historically harvesting the best and brightest minds around the world, who might now consider returning to their (or their parent's) home country (I hear both China and India offer very generous packages to encourage brain-drained people/families to return).
 
Funky Papa said:
This is just the beginning, though. The UK is set to lose the European Medicines Agency (Europe's FDA for USGAF) and several contries are readying their respective bids.

That's a lot of R&D work and highly qualified professionals getting out of the UK and going somewhere else.
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UK based research in general is also going to lose huge amount of its funding. UK paid money to EU and then EU gave back to UK for research projects. Is anyone seriously thinking there is even possibility that this money that is not paid to EU has high priority to be used in research?
 
soqquatto said:
everyone is bound to lose from this. I wonder how the people who voted leave are feeling now.
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In the case of something like this? Probably not even aware of it. Many leave voters probably aren't people who care about scientific research in any way or form.

Some leave voters seem to think 'short term' losses will mean that long term things will be 'great' the difference is with the uncertainty of what happens in the UK next, those with in demand skills are probably going to leave the country. Brain drain will become an even bigger problem in some of the actual fields where the UK did have good skills and reputation.

Many of my friends in jobs in industries like tech and film post production are already seriously looking overseas. Science and finance will probably see many leave as well. The UK has, in a three week period turned into an international punchline, shame that many who yearn to return the UK to the 'good old days' can't see that. In some ways I can see why they never would. And that makes it doubly depressing.
 
Vastag said:
The funding programs for the EU are usually competitive (for example, look at the H2020 programm), which means that several consortiums (formed by research institutions, universities and companies from different countries) are competing for the money (tied to a call) between them. There is no new EU rule saying that the researchers from the UK can't be a member of a consortium, but right now they are seem like a liability by the other researchers, because nobody know what is going to happen with them. A lot of funding and the future of different research groups is at stake at these proposals, so the project leaders are not including UK members to maximize the possibility of getting the money. It sucks, but is completely normal.
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Yes I understand the changes for projects being proposed for funding but the OP has someone being pressured to drop from a completed project. If this becomes a trend where UK scientists are being pressured on currently funded projects it should be looked at as unethical and wrong.
 
Don't those idiot Europeans know we're stronger working together to find solutions to common problems? Talk about self-defeating.
 
:( I feel so bad for UK GAF...This is what happens when one let's the far right take the hearts and minds of the public.
 
What a time to be doing a science degree.

My job prospects were shit anyway but this doesn't help.

Think of the knock on effects. Researchers don't wanna work in Britain, then the universities start slouching on tables, then they lose the cash cow that is international students (already turned off by the headlines of xenophobia), and our higher education gets overtaken by the rest of the world.

But it'll be fine because of all these DEALS
 
Jeels said:
:( I feel so bad for UK GAF...This is what happens when one let's the far right take the hearts and minds of the public.
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I always thought it would be the US that jumped the shark :(

Brits sneering at scientists and experts, what a complete cock up.
 
Wereroku said:
Yes but what does that have to do with already completed/funded projects? This is about them removing people from completed projects.
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AFAICT it was an on-going project. And this may relate to this type of quote:
Anecdotes reported as part of the survey include an EU project officer recommending that all UK partners be dropped from research group because their share of the funding was not guaranteed, according to the Guardian.
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So, when you say a project is 'funded' does that mean that UK government has transferred £50M to a Swiss bank account "up front"? or that there's an agreement subject to various clauses that will cause that money to be paid from an EU body?

I haven't really got a clue. But it's certainly possible that some projects are simply being "overly cautious".
 
PJV3 said:
I always thought it would be the US that jumped the shark :(

Brits sneering at scientists and experts, what a complete cock up.
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The US is on the verge of getting a solid centrist who's about to be endorsed by a prominent leftie, and with an economy on the rise.

Must say I am not a fan of this reversal of fortunes 😫😫
 
dumbo said:
AFAICT it was an on-going project. And this may relate to this type of quote:


So, when you say a project is 'funded' does that mean that UK government has transferred £50M to a Swiss bank account "up front"? or that there's an agreement subject to various clauses that will cause that money to be paid from an EU body?

I haven't really got a clue. But it's certainly possible that some projects are simply being "overly cautious".
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We will have to wait for the op but in this case it sounds like the paper is ready to be published.
 
Why would they continue to be part of EU-funded projects when Britain has voted to get out of the EU? This is the kind of thing that's obviously going to happen. You don't get to keep the benefits of membership while also leaving...
 
Krejlooc said:
That's fucked up. I doubt many of those researchers voted leave, and even if they did their research is still valid.

Brexit is going to make the uk to europe what japan is to asia. That really sucks. Its crazy to see decades of progress and cooperation flushed down the toilet.
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Nature had a poll on that subject:

nature-brexit-31-03-16-online.png

http://www.nature.com/news/scientists-say-no-to-uk-exit-from-europe-in-nature-poll-1.19636

And another article about what the ramifications are, you can see it in the related articles.
 
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