My exact same thoughts.
I feel kinda stupid for never having thought of it, though.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Uncharted 4 and the dissonance of the rope
- Thread starter nynt9
- Start date
My exact same thoughts.
I feel kinda stupid for never having thought of it, though.
I used to think that people were just joking about the "homicidal sociopath" thing, and then I realized that a small subset of those folks were 100% serious. Honestly, this particular franchise seems to get nitpicked on things that barely register with me at all.
In fairness, it's one of my favorite franchises, so it's very possible that I'm the one who's biased.
Cave Johnson
Member
Actually, there is a conversational prompt that between you and Sam remarking about this "machinery". As well as Elena and Sully's off banter.
I'm about halfway through and yeah there's some weird dependence on letting down ladders and dumb inaccessible areas that easily could be reached with the rope. But I mean i get why they have to do it like that in certain areas, the rope can't be all powerful or would of course screw up the linear style of the game.
My bigger issue with Uncharted (and exploration games in general) is all perfectly placed ledges, cracks and divots in the rocks/buildings to get you right where you need to go..it's hard to take seriously but again I get that's it's necessary and the staple gameplay style of these games.
My bigger issue with Uncharted (and exploration games in general) is all perfectly placed ledges, cracks and divots in the rocks/buildings to get you right where you need to go..it's hard to take seriously but again I get that's it's necessary and the staple gameplay style of these games.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
It's almost like they made a game and wanted you to play the game where you have to carry out different acts in the context of a game.
Take it further, why can't I use the rope on a railing, why just those places where it's marked?
This is another "mass murderer" thing. It's nonsense. You are playing a game, suspesion of disbelief.
Take it further, why can't I use the rope on a railing, why just those places where it's marked?
This is another "mass murderer" thing. It's nonsense. You are playing a game, suspesion of disbelief.
backbreaker65
Banned
The crazy part about this game is the most obvious oversight. This dude can climb and have the grip of a monkey and yet can not climb one god damn tree.
vpance
Member
KyleOnTheRun
Member
Probably all video game sequels should no longer have new mechanics, because why didn't they use it in the first game?
Thankfully, these suspensions of disbelief didn't affect my playthrough at all. But you can even come up with in-universe explanations. Here they are:
1.
2.
3.
Thankfully, these suspensions of disbelief didn't affect my playthrough at all. But you can even come up with in-universe explanations. Here they are:
1.
The rope was Sam's technique, and Nate put it away when he thought Sam was gone. He brings it back out to re-learn and perfect the technique for their new adventure together. You could argue it was an emotional reminder of Sam's death and Nate's failure to save him.
2.
Crates in Libertalia -- this doesn't bother me at all. We are told and shown repeatedly that Libertalia had very sophisticated engineers, building all kinds of contraptions, and their colony was spread out over dozens of square miles. A crate with wheels is a simple, effective way to transport materials around the colony efficiently. Their locations are convenient, but they absolutely belong there. And the poster with the Wikipedia entry about who invented the swivel caster.... /smh. I guess it was invented by Libertalia engineers *in this fictional world*
3.
Why can't rope be used to pull Nathan up? Look, how does it make any physical sense for Sam to stand upright, hold a rope that clearly has elastic properties, and have another human being *climb it*? The only way this rope complaint makes sense is if, in those moments, Sam finds something to leverage his body against, or a post to wrap the hook around, but it needs to be stable enough for Nate's 200 lbs. PLUS climbing forces. And the hook won't stay in rock or the ground. There's a time in the game where you hook the rope to a box, and I was thinking this is one moment where swinging should make no sense, but I checked: that box doesn't have wheels. And Sam comments: Nate's lucky the box is heavy enough to support his weight.
Yup.
It was actually invented by pirates in the 1700s and that dude just happened on some ol pirate manuscript and took credit for it.
Seriously, these games are absolutely full of this stuff; they're bursting at the seams with it. I don't understand how people are able to play enough video games to be on a forum like GAF but don't have the ability to switch off the part of their brains that gets worked up over things like this.
vpance
Member
Sounds like a good plot for Uncharted 5.
Worked up? It's just discussing a weird thing that ND never addresses. The ones who seem worked up are the "stop discussing the game's shortcomings!" people.
Again, what backlash? It's posts like this that force me to say I loved the game in almost every single response despite already mentioning it in the OP. One can love something yet still discuss its flaws. If anything, loving a game makes me want to talk about its flaws more because that helps me grasp it better.
Ffs no one is getting "worked up" about it.
It's an amusing quirk in a game that sticks out a little. Do you have problems with people discussing and critiquing games?
Finale Fireworker
Member
I have a friend who constantly interrupts movies to say "that's not realistic" or "why didn't they just do this?"
They are not a good friend and I hate them.
People like this (which are an exaggeration of the OP in this case, I'm not equating you two) seem to not understand that media is a representation of reality, not reality. Nate doesn't use the rope for certain obstacles for the same reason the the eagles don't carry Sam and Frodo to Mordor: because then there's no goddamn story.
If Nate used the rope to solve every puzzle and traverse any structure, then there is no game. And this is a pretty lame observation anyway because Nate does use the rope for a huge variety of puzzles. The ones he doesn't are the ones where there is no place to secure the rope.
Just because it's a ledge doesn't mean you can use a rope go climb it, you know? The game established that you need to secure the rope on appropriate anchors for it to support Nate's weight. It's really that simple in this case. No anchors, no rope.
They are not a good friend and I hate them.
People like this (which are an exaggeration of the OP in this case, I'm not equating you two) seem to not understand that media is a representation of reality, not reality. Nate doesn't use the rope for certain obstacles for the same reason the the eagles don't carry Sam and Frodo to Mordor: because then there's no goddamn story.
If Nate used the rope to solve every puzzle and traverse any structure, then there is no game. And this is a pretty lame observation anyway because Nate does use the rope for a huge variety of puzzles. The ones he doesn't are the ones where there is no place to secure the rope.
Just because it's a ledge doesn't mean you can use a rope go climb it, you know? The game established that you need to secure the rope on appropriate anchors for it to support Nate's weight. It's really that simple in this case. No anchors, no rope.
Finale Fireworker
Member
I would rather lift up a collapsed beam or boost an AI partner to reach a ladder than have the loading screen they're disguising, though.
This isn't entirely accurate. The level design is in ND's hands. They could have designed puzzles that wouldn't be made useless by the rope. They could have made characters give an excuse for it. But they don't. Given how much attention to detail this game has one would think they would.
It's not that the rope thing is unrealistic. There are many unrealistic things about these games but they're easy to gloss over. The issue is that the rope specifically is used to solve certain problems but for other problems it would be made useless. You know what's really egregious? End game spoiler:
in that cutscene where Nate goes over the wall after Sam and the rest of the crew is like "we can't ever reach you" when they easily could have used rope, in that cutscene they don't display the rope on Nate's character, but seconds later when you get back to the game the rope appears on you.
I mean, it doesn't take the game down from the 9/10 I already thought it was, but it's just an endearing quirk that's fun to talk about.
last of us suffered from the same problem. ND is top in class at presentation and story telling but gameplay is still B tier. some times I wonder if the box puzzles are wedged in to slow you down so the game can load. I don't understand why they use them so often, theyre not fun and sure they break up gameplay but not in a good way.
swearing-circle
Member
Yeah, it was really dumb but honestly, the trade off was worth it.
It's a really fun mechanic.
It's a really fun mechanic.
I didn't tell anyone to do anything. I just said I don't get it.
It's an extension of the "Nate is a mass murderer!" thing. I don't understand how people can play games that are overflowing with cases of gameplay butting heads with realism and still think it makes sense to pick and choose examples to criticise. It makes no sense to me.
Not at all. This dissonance thing is a pretty regular topic when it comes to Uncharted though, and my answer above explains my thoughts on that.
The same could be said for about any game ever.
Seriously, think about it, in real life I can climb many things (fences, lampposts, whatever), yet the superhuman atlethic lead of a game cannot do such a thing. I could also kick trough weak doors or destroy windows, yet most game characters cannot. Most games have me looking for a key or something instead. And this becomes even more apparent when you have actual superpowers. There is no game I can recall that doesn't blatantly have this.
It doesn't bother me a bit though, save for a few instances where a game breaks its own gameplay rules (like using power x to open a door, yet a similar door requires a key for no reason whatsoever).
Seriously, think about it, in real life I can climb many things (fences, lampposts, whatever), yet the superhuman atlethic lead of a game cannot do such a thing. I could also kick trough weak doors or destroy windows, yet most game characters cannot. Most games have me looking for a key or something instead. And this becomes even more apparent when you have actual superpowers. There is no game I can recall that doesn't blatantly have this.
It doesn't bother me a bit though, save for a few instances where a game breaks its own gameplay rules (like using power x to open a door, yet a similar door requires a key for no reason whatsoever).
Dragon Puncher
Member
Naughty Dog games are great, but the strong story and super realistic character models also make all of them super prone to ludonarrative dissonance since the games are still based around trying to create the most engaging gameplay, instead of strict realism. Ellie not being seen by enemies is a perfect example of this.
I can definitely see the problem, but I've learned to just go with it at this point. It's a fun ride that can feel pretty real, but (luckily) it's also a good video game.
I can definitely see the problem, but I've learned to just go with it at this point. It's a fun ride that can feel pretty real, but (luckily) it's also a good video game.
Kaneda Shotaro
Member
Yup, this is the part that made no sense over all the others. It took me right out of the game and made Nate look like an idiot.
Wrongo. Elena and Sully have climbed and gone through just as much as Nate not only in 1-3 but 4 as well. I agree that maybe they should've stayed behind but "no way in hell they'd be able to climb the cliffs and caves that came after"? lol the A.I. characters in this game can climb and go anywhere and have been doing just as insane things as Nate. By the way, that also takes me out of the game and makes me laugh a little. They're just as good as Nate and climbing cliffs and barely making it through these areas? Yeah, sure.
BalishChannel
Banned
It's also done a lot in The Last of Us. At this point I think one of the animators at Naughty Dog has a boost fetish.
I dunno, it seems pretty normal in games to be honest. None of these games rally make sense but they revel in their stupidity, celebrate it.
Those mechanics are there primarily to progress the game as a game, in one way or another, rather than to progress the game as real life, it's a big part of the language of gaming. Drake would be dead within minutes if it was a truly honest game, most of the stuff in the game makes no sense at all in the real world but it is true to the reality of this franchise.
Those mechanics are there primarily to progress the game as a game, in one way or another, rather than to progress the game as real life, it's a big part of the language of gaming. Drake would be dead within minutes if it was a truly honest game, most of the stuff in the game makes no sense at all in the real world but it is true to the reality of this franchise.
I don't mind the death defying stunts because in this game's universe they're normal. Here's why the rope thing stood out to me while the rest didn't:
That's not wholly accurate though, is it?
For that to be accurate a benchmark would have been set up where we do something with the rope and then the game changes it without reason. The rope being discussed is our tool, not Drake's.
That's not happened here as the only example we have of using these ropes is what is happening in the game. People may disagree with the with the benchmarks, and that's fine, but to say that the game never brakes those rules is wholly inaccurate.
Right from the start, the game explains us the new tool that we've been given and what allows us to do,. If at some point in the game it stopped us being able to hang from points that are pre-defined by Naught Dog without it being explained to us as the people using that tool, or through Drake as the character that we're allowed to control, then it would be dishonest to the reality of that game.
I do understand that people may not like it, I have no issues with that at all, but to state that it's not true to reality of that tool we're initially given is inaccurate.
SerTapTap
Member
Box pushing is meant to slow you down a but and let you explore your environment.
Rope throwing is incredibly obvious and instant because of the icon for it--it's even easier to do than climbing.
Also, for "realism", the rope can only cling onto VERY specific things, hanging from the ceiling, with rope already wrapped around. It's a very Gamey thing, but never are we prevented from using the rope on an actual rope point to force us to use a box instead.
Gameplay-wise they're entirely different things so it's easy to see why they're never mixed or replaced. Robbing the game of all it's slow moments has debatable value but it's clearly not what they were going for.
Granted, the better slow moments had nothing to do with boxes, more to do with proper puzzles or big open areas to explore with no one shooting at you. But you can't always do that either.
Rope throwing is incredibly obvious and instant because of the icon for it--it's even easier to do than climbing.
Also, for "realism", the rope can only cling onto VERY specific things, hanging from the ceiling, with rope already wrapped around. It's a very Gamey thing, but never are we prevented from using the rope on an actual rope point to force us to use a box instead.
Gameplay-wise they're entirely different things so it's easy to see why they're never mixed or replaced. Robbing the game of all it's slow moments has debatable value but it's clearly not what they were going for.
Granted, the better slow moments had nothing to do with boxes, more to do with proper puzzles or big open areas to explore with no one shooting at you. But you can't always do that either.
SaganIsGOAT
Junior Member
The really weird dissonance in this game is the gratuitous amount of time our heroes lift up objects that clearly have enough room to just crawl under or over. I'm just looking at them struggle to lift these things and this giant crawl space under them is like hey hey heyyyyyy look at me!!!
Lys Skygge
Member
Not wrong. I had just played through the collection days before playing UC4. Yes Elena and Sully can climb alot of obstacles, but several times throughout the series they've told Nathan that they can't manage a certain area and Nathan has to find another way for them to overcome an obstacle.
Also
did you forget that neither Sully or Elena have ropes? Throughout the entirety of UC4 Sully and Elena never use the rope. They aren't experienced with ropes and if I recall, the final area after leaving Sully and Elena has alot of rope swinging. So again, even if Nathan helped them over the wall, there's no way they could traverse to cliffs. Like, they literally don't have the tools to do so.
paragonpro
Banned
Nah its not you, people do it to halo and zelda too. Really any big first party IP. Its all about the warz
wild wild rice
Member
Yeah, it's just not that type of game.
potatohead
Member
You forgot that at the end of Uncharted 1 they get a massive boatload of gold (that is even pictured in Uncharted 4, again) and yet somehow are still not filthy rich and apparently still need to go on 3 more adventures to find treasure.
People for some reason just don't let it go with Uncharted, but other games it is completely fine.
It's the same as complaining about any action game, reaching a door that has needs a keycard, and remarking "well I have this arsenal of 10 explosive weapons, why can't I blow up the wall besides it! Game inconsistency!"
Well, that's just it.... it's not trying to make everything about the game mechanics or gameplay realistic.
Yea it's kind of sad.
potatohead
Member
I doubt it is for this game. For the previous games definitely.
There is plenty of time during traversal for loading time anyway. Drake does not really move that fast between environments to put so much strain on the RAM limits crossing between areas.
Streaming into the 5GB+ available for games can easily be done while Drake is on the move between areas. It's not the 256 MB VRAM limit of PS3 anymore.
Also the very, very large vehicle areas probably show that loading times aren't really much of an issue in this game anymore. The PS4 enables it not to have such problems.
Leatherface
Member
It's a video game so such nonsense doesn't really bother me, although I too asked myself this question. Lol
.. and really, if you wanted to there is so so much more to tear apart.
.. and really, if you wanted to there is so so much more to tear apart.
Fushichou187
Member
It likely masks load times but also serves to reinforce the partnership of Joel and Ellie; they're helping each other out.
Give it time. GAF will find a way.
Damn I never thought about this hahaha amazing
And yeah it's video game logic. They are meant to be fun first and foremost and not dull because it would be more realistic. Also devs needs to guide players sometimes even with all the freedom they give them at the same time.
I'm not that far into the game and they've used the butt a decent amount lol can confirm
As many others have pointed out, this sort of thing is in most games. I think over the years we just learn to turn a certain part of our brains off when playing so that these things don't bother us unless they are particularly egregious. In Resident Evil for example, you have magnums and rocket launchers but you still have to find keys to open wooden doors.
The late game example people are mentioning is pretty ridiculous though. I was so into the story while I was playing that I didn't even think about it, but it is pretty dumb that they didn't at least come up with a better way to handle that scene. I also noticed a part where jumping down from a ledge that was only about 10 feet off the ground would give me a fail state, but less than a minute later there is a cutscene where Nate falls from 3 times that height easily and is fine. And did anyone else roll their eyes at
?
The late game example people are mentioning is pretty ridiculous though. I was so into the story while I was playing that I didn't even think about it, but it is pretty dumb that they didn't at least come up with a better way to handle that scene. I also noticed a part where jumping down from a ledge that was only about 10 feet off the ground would give me a fail state, but less than a minute later there is a cutscene where Nate falls from 3 times that height easily and is fine. And did anyone else roll their eyes at
three hundred year old outdoor elevators made out of wood that somehow didn't rot AND can support the weight of a fucking Jeep
Complicated
Banned
I hadn't thought about the rope being used in puzzles. I was so distracted by the wacky physics. All the traversal and puzzle stuff (and some of the combat to be honest) is just filler anyways. The game would be better without most of it, but Naughty Dog really seems to like making 15+ hour games regardless of what it does to the pacing of their stories.
I am that person.
I find it fun to nitpick weird inconsistencies in games or movies and then try to think of outlandish ways to justify them.
I was recently playing Tomb Raider: Tomb of Osiris and I kept remarking about why the Egyptians would've built all these ball puzzles or got enough spears to make all these death floors
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Uncharted 2 starts with Drake living the life before Chloe and Flynn and even addresses that Sully spent all of his money getting him out of that one prison. He took that job more so due to Chloe than due to straight up needing cash. And for the love of god stop it with the persecution complex. Uncharted is not some child that needs protecting.
Come on man. No one is saying they hate the game and UC is not some special case where only it has elements that get criticized.