So then I could run up to an enemy while everyone else misses and then melee them while everyone else stops shooting
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Uncharted 4's combat is just not fun
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So then I could run up to an enemy while everyone else misses and then melee them while everyone else stops shooting
hogendaz85
Member
Sounds like that other board was maybe discussing animation priority? Uncharted has always been ridiculous with this but I do feel it was toned down some with UC4.
WhiskerFrisker
Member
The game felt so good to control so I'm not sure I understand where complaints are coming from. Could there be tweaks to the way the ai is incredibly accurate on higher difficulties? Yes. But to say that it doesn't control well is wrong. Perhaps I have a very different idea of what gunplay is?
NullPointer
Member
Reduced accuracy doesn't mean you're impervious, but when in melee it doesn't make feel right or make much sense for all the other mercs to open fire from all angles on you. When you're truly exposed, sure, but in most cases the enemy is just fine firing on their own guys and I don't think that serves the purpose of making this an Indiana-Jones-blockbuster kindof shooter. And as far as the sprint defense goes it could be something that takes full effect when starting the sprint and then drops in potency, resetting after the player has returned to a normal pace.
If that's the case I never noticed it. I had a black and white screen within moments of swinging on a rope unless all the enemies had their backs turned.
RespectThySole
Member
Exactly. Shame there wasn't more of it. You should be complaining about how horribly paced the game is.
Also, Gears 4's single player combat is actually quite bad especially the bullet sponge robot sections.
Uncharted 4's combat is way more interesting in terms of movement and level design.
Fancy Clown
Member
Yeah I think Drake is highly responsive in 4. They talked about it in tech presentation but basically they have finally achieved super nice animations while still giving you pretty much full control over him in movement.
Yup, it is one of the most impressive things in the game honestly.
The animations are crazy good, but it also keeps the responsiveness.
Yeah it's very impressive. It's fun just moving characters around in the game since it feels and looks so good.
Frozone
Member
Combat is indeed pretty lame. It's too formulaic. The duck and cover in most games is getting old. Not enough melee, or variety of ways to kill/KO, and AI is too predictable. But this is pretty common in most games. After awhile, even the Witcher games feel tedious.
I think one of the best games that pretty much randomizes it's combat thereby keeping encounters fresh is Dishonored 2. Their AI is extremely unpredictable and adding the power + weapons makes for a huge variety of ways to kill/KO. DOOM also did a good job of making their levels extremely satisfying, so this really isn't about UC4. It's a much bigger discussion IMO.
I think one of the best games that pretty much randomizes it's combat thereby keeping encounters fresh is Dishonored 2. Their AI is extremely unpredictable and adding the power + weapons makes for a huge variety of ways to kill/KO. DOOM also did a good job of making their levels extremely satisfying, so this really isn't about UC4. It's a much bigger discussion IMO.
Net_Wrecker
Member
I do think there's a legitimate argument to be made that Uncharted 4 (and I use UC4 in particular because it's the most complex of the four games) doesn't do enough to encourage the style of play that seems to be fitting of the game. There should really be a design philosophy in place where the more risks you take, the more the AI struggles to lock their aim down on you, similar to how parkour flow works in Mirror's Edge. Using the rope, rolling, jumping off ledges, and jumping melee kills don't feel like they provide nearly enough shielding from damage. Like there should straight up be more i-frames and "Stormtrooper aim" attached to these maneuvers to encourage recklessness. Of course it would be on a hidden cool down if you try to cheese the system (say by continually reattaching to the same rope point), but at least then a player using a string of action moves could feel like they're actually weaving their way through enemy fire like an action hero.
Secondly, I also think there's an argument to be made that they relied too much on big combat bowls in UC4 to ratchet up the intensity, almost to compensate for how sedate and slow the rest of the game is. It's really missing more of those small, cleverly design gimmick encounters from UC2. More linear firefights that bring a smoother pacing and intensity curve, while also highlighting a particular weapon/ability and piece of level design. The elevator encounter in the jungle is the only one that comes to mind in UC4, and even that didn't feel like it was taken to its conclusion in terms of getting all they could out of the concept. The large combat bowls sort of become nebulous after a while. They're all cluttered, they're all multi-level in similar ways, most of them have stealth grass, etc. Sure ND tries to spice it up with water in one of them, or the abundance of rope swinging points in the pirate shipyard, but then you also highlight the issues I discussed initially, where recklessness doesn't feel as fun as it should because you're always taking damage.
All of that said, I do think people calling the combat "bad" are out of their minds. Control and animation are sublime. UC4 is easily the most fluid grounded shooter I've ever played, and ND made huge, huge strides in shooting feedback and weapon handling animations, even coming off of TLOU. That's not to say it's more viscerally satisfying than that game, but these are 2 different experiences with 2 different combat goals. This also stretches back to UC2 as well, where people just hand wave the incredibly tight design and pacing of that game as some sort of generic cover shooter. Now I'll admit that gunplay was a bit soft in UC2, but calling the combat in that game "bad" is also a position I just can't understand at all.
Secondly, I also think there's an argument to be made that they relied too much on big combat bowls in UC4 to ratchet up the intensity, almost to compensate for how sedate and slow the rest of the game is. It's really missing more of those small, cleverly design gimmick encounters from UC2. More linear firefights that bring a smoother pacing and intensity curve, while also highlighting a particular weapon/ability and piece of level design. The elevator encounter in the jungle is the only one that comes to mind in UC4, and even that didn't feel like it was taken to its conclusion in terms of getting all they could out of the concept. The large combat bowls sort of become nebulous after a while. They're all cluttered, they're all multi-level in similar ways, most of them have stealth grass, etc. Sure ND tries to spice it up with water in one of them, or the abundance of rope swinging points in the pirate shipyard, but then you also highlight the issues I discussed initially, where recklessness doesn't feel as fun as it should because you're always taking damage.
All of that said, I do think people calling the combat "bad" are out of their minds. Control and animation are sublime. UC4 is easily the most fluid grounded shooter I've ever played, and ND made huge, huge strides in shooting feedback and weapon handling animations, even coming off of TLOU. That's not to say it's more viscerally satisfying than that game, but these are 2 different experiences with 2 different combat goals. This also stretches back to UC2 as well, where people just hand wave the incredibly tight design and pacing of that game as some sort of generic cover shooter. Now I'll admit that gunplay was a bit soft in UC2, but calling the combat in that game "bad" is also a position I just can't understand at all.
I only played the first reboot 2013 and I agree completely, the gameplay was actually fun while the uncharted games it felt like a chore to kill enemies.
psynergylover
Member
I enjoyed it, the problem is like every uncharted game their always comes a level near the end where the throw EVERY. FUCKIN. ENEMY. At you; while it manageable on normal and below, it can be quite the pain in the ass on hard or crushing(basically impossible on Brutal)
NullPointer
Member
Absolutely. I think the combat is tight and responsive and has its own back and forth rhythm. It just needed to be tuned towards encouraging a more in your face, swashbuckling style.
Personally I think it has a lot of positives going for it (great level design, rousing score, top notch combat animations, etc) that make it an incredible cinematic combat experience when everything comes together, but it also has glaring flaws (aiming is too twitchy even on lowest sensitivity, hitscan enemies that make exciting traversal impossible at higher difficulties, unremarkable weapon selection) that could be further enhanced/refined now that they got the big PS4 original tech push completed.
One area I'd love to see improvement in would be carrying over some version of the weapon crafting/upgrade system from TLOU; that was, in my opinion, one of the major innovations that added a lot of combat depth to TLOU and led to my playing through it multiple times on harder difficulties (something I've never done in an Uncharted game). I was disappointed to see that a lot of the improvements in Uncharted combat ultimately felt a bit shallow/flashy compared to the increase in depth I saw in TLOU.
One area I'd love to see improvement in would be carrying over some version of the weapon crafting/upgrade system from TLOU; that was, in my opinion, one of the major innovations that added a lot of combat depth to TLOU and led to my playing through it multiple times on harder difficulties (something I've never done in an Uncharted game). I was disappointed to see that a lot of the improvements in Uncharted combat ultimately felt a bit shallow/flashy compared to the increase in depth I saw in TLOU.
Yeah I found it suffered too much from waves of enemies almost immediately overwhelming me, and I played on an easier difficulty level (don't remember if it was Easy or normal)... I just get tired of it very quickly. I honestly thought there'd be far more of TLOU's sparse but intense fighting. A handful of enemies scouting an area etc, but the fights I remember was truck loads of people shooting me from every corner of the map and me dying over and over and over..
I actually really enjoyed the combat. It's not Max Payne 3/Gears of War good but it was the first game in the series that could let the gameplay carry the experience on its own without needing to rely on crazy setpiece moments. Of course it still has the crazy setpiece moments but it didn't need them to keep me engaged.
I strongly disagree.
I didn't really enjoy gunfights in Uncharted prior to 4. In 2 and 3, I always felt that once the first half of the game was passed, the fights just dragged on for forever, trying to be challenging but just being super long and boring.
In 4, I even found myself just relaunching the game to replay encounters. That's how much I enjoyed the fight.
Even moreso in the latest, more complex and layered areas, that are ripe for pushing guys into environmental death, drop-punching them, etc, that even helps treading the line between stealth and combat, allowing you to periodically disappear and surprise them again.
Even without factoring in the LD, there is something very tight in their ammo gameplay loop, that gets you periodically picking up different weapon types over the course of a single fight as your current ones get emptied, and keeps you moving where your enemy died to stock up on stuff, which (at least in my experience) results in a very enjoyable navigation as you keep moving and make moment to moment choices as to where you position yourself next.
I feel like I'm always switching between long range, close range, explosive, melee, climbing up, dropping down, and so on. Also, their enemies hit reactions, death animations and ragdolls are on point and super satisfying.
So yeah, before UC4 for me Uncharted was basically that game that is a graphical showpiece with crazy set pieces, above average dialogue and acting, but not much in the way of gameplay, but I ended up just loving UC4's fight.
I didn't really enjoy gunfights in Uncharted prior to 4. In 2 and 3, I always felt that once the first half of the game was passed, the fights just dragged on for forever, trying to be challenging but just being super long and boring.
In 4, I even found myself just relaunching the game to replay encounters. That's how much I enjoyed the fight.
Even moreso in the latest, more complex and layered areas, that are ripe for pushing guys into environmental death, drop-punching them, etc, that even helps treading the line between stealth and combat, allowing you to periodically disappear and surprise them again.
Even without factoring in the LD, there is something very tight in their ammo gameplay loop, that gets you periodically picking up different weapon types over the course of a single fight as your current ones get emptied, and keeps you moving where your enemy died to stock up on stuff, which (at least in my experience) results in a very enjoyable navigation as you keep moving and make moment to moment choices as to where you position yourself next.
I feel like I'm always switching between long range, close range, explosive, melee, climbing up, dropping down, and so on. Also, their enemies hit reactions, death animations and ragdolls are on point and super satisfying.
So yeah, before UC4 for me Uncharted was basically that game that is a graphical showpiece with crazy set pieces, above average dialogue and acting, but not much in the way of gameplay, but I ended up just loving UC4's fight.
If you're playing on hard or crushing, it definitely helps to soften the opposition with a bit of stealth before jumping in. The cool thing is that enemies lose track of you if you're mobile, so you can even sneak in a few stealth kills after you've been spotted. The one thing that can be quite annoying (especially on crushing) is that enemies have near perfect accuracy and are incredibly aggressive, which forces you to strike a balance between hiding in cover and staying on the move to avoid being flanked. Simply cowering is very likely to get you killed because of how open the terrain is, so that there are usually at least two directions from which enemies can (and will) shoot or throw grenades at you. Plus, it's very easy to run out of ammunition on higher difficulties - I experienced a few rather tense moments in which I was forced to jump enemies using melee in order to get a new weapon.
What about the fights where you're "seen" no matter what immediately? Those were the worst ones IMO, stealth ones were fine. (I'm not OP but agree with some of his points).
SmoothRunningGun
Member
I actually thought it was fun. There was just so little of it.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
^This
Its a blast, but yeah there is much less combat it feels like this time around which is okay.
Net_Wrecker
Member
I think there are more issues than just that though, honestly, like enemy variety. Or rather, enemy behavior variety. I'm disappointed that even after 4 games ND never implemented a type of enemy that's as frenetic and agile as the player. That, to me, should be what the peak Uncharted difficulty level is all about. Not more powerful spongy enemies that you have to tip-toe around, but more dynamic and crazy combat that asks for more dexterity from the player. Like in the final push in UC4 they start tossing around the heavy armored soldiers, and RPG guys in tight spaces, and snipers everywhere.... ugh. I just roll my eyes in those sections because the combat system is capable of so much more. There's that one cave section in, I think, Chapter 19 that's just absolutely terrible. Like UC1 style brute force combat.
And what happened to the shield enemies? And why aren't there more forced melee brawls that transition back to shootouts like the prison chapter? And why... etc .etc.
But still, I'd never say what we got is bad. UC3? Maybe, because shooting in that game actually looks and feels awful IMO, but not UC2 and UC4. Hell, I don't even like UC4 and I can give it that much.
Some encounters, it came down to trial and error for me, learning what spots in an encounter offer the best protection and potential for mobility, when it's safe to change position and what order to kill enemies in. Other than that, the surest way to make your life easier is to improve your accuracy and pick off a few targets early on.
If you're really struggling with a particular section, you could always enable tweaks (eg bullet speed or infinite ammo) or play with aim assist. These can absolutely trivialise encounters, even on crushing, and don't affect trophies (if that's why you play on harder difficulties).
Ultimately though, moderate is very much the difficulty the game is supposed to be experienced in. It still punishes mistakes, but gives you a reasonable amount of time to react to changing conditions, whereas you can pretty much lose all your health in the blink of an eye on crushing. In that respect, 4 is not all that different from the other 3 games. They all have moments that are horribly unforgiving on hard or crushing (not to mention brutal). I think the only reason I got through 4 with relative ease is because I platinumed the Nathan Drake Collection beforehand and so was in the right mindset going in.
I cant see how anybody can say that it's not fun, when its so god damn good. From flawless controls, to animations and level design that is unmatched i don't understand how anybody can complain. There are more ways for you to get flanked and in that way its harder then the previous games where you could just stay behind cover and blind fire until somebody throw a grenade at you. Try to set it to easy, that way its easier to use the rope mechanics.
Alex
Member
Best part of the game, IMO, the refinements were great and the rope was fun.
My largest complaint with Uncharted 4 was how little combat there actually was when the "exploration" was still as meaningless as ever outside of vista shots, which was fine in the past but here it was way too padded here with nothing to spice it up
For me, UC4 needed some more combat and some other angle to correct and justify it's length and pacing. Was far from a bad game by any means but I enjoyed it less than UC2 and 3 and I'll likely never replay it. At least the ending was pretty perfect, despite me usually disliking endings like that it worked well here.
My largest complaint with Uncharted 4 was how little combat there actually was when the "exploration" was still as meaningless as ever outside of vista shots, which was fine in the past but here it was way too padded here with nothing to spice it up
For me, UC4 needed some more combat and some other angle to correct and justify it's length and pacing. Was far from a bad game by any means but I enjoyed it less than UC2 and 3 and I'll likely never replay it. At least the ending was pretty perfect, despite me usually disliking endings like that it worked well here.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I started UC for the first time recently, thinking about playing it through with the lock-on aiming. Really digging the game's environments, set pieces and the story bits. Want to get through combat as soon as possible to get to the next 'thing'.
ronaldthump
Member
swinging on a rope and slamming down on an enemy, hiding in the grass - the additions to the uncharted mechanics expanded what you can do in the game and saying its "not fun" is sort of ridiculous. It's got some of the best TPS mechanics for the genre.
I hope the new DLC has a lot of combat setpieces.
I hope the new DLC has a lot of combat setpieces.
KiefbladeMaster
Member
Was one of the best parts of the game, to me. Played on hard and had no issues.
On par? UC4 puzzles were almost as bad as UC2's.
Ridiculous how finding the gravestone similar to a logo on a paper is considered a puzzle.
The only good puzzles were the rotating lights with the crosses. The clock, the death traps, the roman numeral, the paintings with the pieces of paper you need to rotate, the beam of lights, etc. were just ughhhh....unimaginative and just ugghh..
Exactly. UC4 removed the counter button, which was in UC3. Even UC1 had combos. I thought it was playing tricks on me when the only melee you had to do was press Square.
wild wild rice
Member
I was really hoping the same. But the 7 minute reveal we saw consisted of little more than holding forward for the majority of it.
Wasn't some huge set piece left on the cutting room floor for U4?
Oh, what could have been!
texhnolyze
Banned
Some of your complaints won't be a problem if you mark the enemies.
The combat is not the best but it's far from bad. It's not your normal on-rails cover shooters.
The combat is not the best but it's far from bad. It's not your normal on-rails cover shooters.
forknknife
Banned
I just started playing the game last week and to me the combat is fine, what I find really ridiculous is the tall grass-based stealth mechanic. It is absurd and so unrealistic that it just makes the whole action silly. I know uncharted is not going for realism but I think they take way too many liberties with these mechanics and just impedes any sort of immersion.
I compare it to something like deus ex human revolution where, even though there's certainly also some unrealistic situations here and there, at least when you go for stealth it really feels like you're doing it right moat of the time and is in turn so much rewarding when you pull it off well.
In uncharted if i pull it off i know it is because the game allowed for it by making the bad guys either blind or complete idiots.
Also ridiculous how if you snipe somebody being hidden in the grass all of a sudden EVERY enemy knows exactly where you are and starts shooting at you.
That's just crappy game mechanics design.
Edit: oh yes, and the whole climbing mechanic is basically an x-mashing game and hit L-stick in whatever direction until the guy grabs onto something.... hmmm ok
I compare it to something like deus ex human revolution where, even though there's certainly also some unrealistic situations here and there, at least when you go for stealth it really feels like you're doing it right moat of the time and is in turn so much rewarding when you pull it off well.
In uncharted if i pull it off i know it is because the game allowed for it by making the bad guys either blind or complete idiots.
Also ridiculous how if you snipe somebody being hidden in the grass all of a sudden EVERY enemy knows exactly where you are and starts shooting at you.
That's just crappy game mechanics design.
Edit: oh yes, and the whole climbing mechanic is basically an x-mashing game and hit L-stick in whatever direction until the guy grabs onto something.... hmmm ok
I think the problem is that they're stuck in-between two extremes. The hardware allows for larger. more seamless environments, but progression still happens along a fairly linear path, which leads to platforming and exploration being a lot more like puzzles. What's nice is that while playing through a sequence for the first time, you're effectively fooled into thinking that the game is more open than it's scripted nature allows it to be. Unfortunately, that also means that the platforming loses some of its excitement on subsequent runs. Still, open areas such as in chapters 10 and 12, and incorporation of tools like the rope and the pick are exciting indicators for how the series (or at least these platforming systems) might evolve going forward.
Heh. These are my thoughts exactly. The slower more thoughtful combat of TLOU is the best ND has done.
I can never say I've ever really had fun with Uncharted combat. Bullet sponge enemies and for all of the supposed movement options the hitscan enemies force you to spend 90% of the time behind cover regardless.
Mr.Fletcher
Member
I couldn't agree more. Uncharted 2 boasts FAR superior combat design to Uncharted 4 with hand-crafted scenarios that shine a spotlight on specific weapons and play-styles.
Uncharted 4 serves up the same bland, cookie-cutter combat bowls over and over again.
They really expose the franchises' biggest weaknesses - a lack of mechanical depth and little to no enemy variety.
You find yourself with the same handful of combat options, in the same nebulous arenas, facing off against the same faceless adversaries.
Uncharted 2 hides those weaknesses well, playing with combat distances, terrain make-up and pacing to masterful effect.
Uncharted 4 controls like a dream, but like it's predecessors, it's too simple to build it's combat around open-ended battle zones. It has zero depth.
I'll be frank, I don't enjoy the design philosophy powering the encounters.
I didn't like it in MGSV, but in that game you at least have a plethora of options and superior AI to toy with... though that's not to say that game didn't suffer as a result.
The combat has never been good in this series and this remained the case in 4. I would say that the combat is aggressively poor in fact. They have never improved it at all and it's been to the series' detriment the entire time. Thank god there was no supernatural enemies to fight this time. The fact that the enemies are so accurate from so far away even when using handguns and ARs that are nowhere near as accurate for you remains the biggest weakness. If you duck out of cover to try and aim at them, bam, bam bam, you're hit. This is rarely the case in reverse when shooting at a distance.
Additionally, for a game where they really rely on you doing stealth kills to theoretically avoid huge waves of enemies, why in the world do you never have a silencer in this game?
Additionally, for a game where they really rely on you doing stealth kills to theoretically avoid huge waves of enemies, why in the world do you never have a silencer in this game?
firenskill2000
Member
This I wholeheartedly agree with. I thought the stealth play was fantastic compared to the others but it killed me to see Sam walking right in front of enemies and I am still unseen.
I played on normal and was actually surpsrised how many times I died after having finished all the other Uncharted games on Crushing.
They definitely changed something I just could quite put my finger on it. It felt like I got surrounded, blindsided and shot in the back way more in this one.
Well just think about about how frustrating it would have been the other way round. They did the same thing in the last of us and while it looks weird from time to time I don't see any other way honestly.
They definitely changed something I just could quite put my finger on it. It felt like I got surrounded, blindsided and shot in the back way more in this one.
Well just think about about how frustrating it would have been the other way round. They did the same thing in the last of us and while it looks weird from time to time I don't see any other way honestly.
firenskill2000
Member
My biggest issue with all 4 games is the length. I feel that they've all been at least 3-4 hours too long. They just are a race to get through for me after a while. As much as I love the characters there's no reason for 15 hour play throughs.
entremet
Member
My beef.