GoldenEye 007
Member
Companies would just outsource their programming workload overseas, like they're already doing.TheNatural said:
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"Unpaid crunch deserves no sympathy" - Michael Pachter
- Thread starter NotTheGuyYouKill
- Start date
Neuromancer
Member
I would say more like, neverending crunch = bad managementgutter_trash said:
I would be just as happy with time off instead of overtime, which I believe is common practice.
reggieandTFE
Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
Most other Western countries have stricter labor laws than the US.
His stuff about the bonus pool is complete bullshit. Guess what? Without a union contract, management is not required to give the developers one cent.
Or, you know, you could finish games, and release them 6-9 months after they are finished.
Just like Gears of War 3 is finished already, and they have all the time in the world to make subtle changes, but I bet no one is crunching anything about that as it has been a business decision to delay it.
More planning ahead, less human resource abuse with no end. It would do wonders to this industry.
Just like Gears of War 3 is finished already, and they have all the time in the world to make subtle changes, but I bet no one is crunching anything about that as it has been a business decision to delay it.
More planning ahead, less human resource abuse with no end. It would do wonders to this industry.
Posted this earlier.. Activision lost.Glix said:
DennisK4 said:
Agreed, actually. I've spent some time telling past co-workers that they should get the fuck out before things get worse. If they're not going to do more to force better working conditions in their own industry they should pack up and fucking walk, and to hell with what happens to the industry for it.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I've put in plenty of unpaid overtime out of a general responsibility to get my own work done on a completely voluntary basis. However, I've also received overtime pay when it's specifically been requested that I work longer hours, and I think that's the way it should be.coopolon said:
I don't necessarily think that a forty hour work week is sacred and that nobody should ever work beyond that. Shit happens, and sometimes you need to give a little more for the sake of the team. However, if you are regularly expected to work X hours per week, then I hope you're getting compensated that much, and also are comfortable with that responsibility. One shouldn't be expected to put in 80 hours a week if they're being paid like a easily replacable grunt working 40 hours a week.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
Pachter the uppity parasite.
XANDER CAGE
Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
There's also the case that a lot of developers aren't in the US or held to US standards.
Dr. Zoidberg
Member
Corky said:
In my state, if you are salaried you are essentially required to work whenever they need you and they aren't required to pay you anything extra when you put in overtime though some do. If you want to quit over it go right ahead, there's the door. At least I'm pretty sure that's the way it works. The rule I've learned is to stay hourly if at all possible.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Wow. That´s really bad. Game developers should unionize yesterday.
Planning out a project is.. pretty hard.. even when you have shipped multiple titles, its still allot of guessing how much time some stuff takes. I mean things might fit perfectly on paper, but when you start developing you encounter tons of stuff you couldn't possibly have predicted. If you develop for Publishers who aren't EA, Activision or any of the big boys, then you can get away with moving deadlines around a bit. But generally, when something goes wrong, there is no room for error, and especially if you make a big game, you probably have a launch date already set out, tons of stuff gets arranged around that date, so if suddenly you can't make the deadline, then shit.. you need to crunch! plus if you create so called AAA games, you have events to consider that get thrown in by publishers only weeks before the event. for example E3, Pax, etc.ShaneB said:
Unions have pro and cons. and one of the biggest cons is that it makes employee's who joined a union a liability. It wont stop insane crunch because those studio's simply get the cheaper juniors who haven't joined a union and it will work for them, and soon you won't even get a job if you have joined a union. developers will avoid you like the plague.
reggieandTFE
Member
Beam said:
It will be incredibly difficult because the ways companies and development teams are structured. I am guessing that most companies would just simply say that all developers are supervisors and not protected by the NLRA. The current NLRB would not buy that argument, but Unfair Labor Practices, Administrative Law Judge rulings, Regional Director Decisions, Exceptions to the ALJ's decision, Washington DC NLRB decision, appeal of the DC decision and then another ULP to get the whole thing kicked to Federal court, where it will sit for multiple years with no action.
There are few things more difficult in the current US economic environment than forming a Union.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
He was already a mediocre analyst, but this makes him a bad person.
TheNatural
My Member!
GoldenEye 007 said:
Then their sales would be fucked as a result of a B grade replacement game.
BeautifulMemory
Member
And ignorant tooGrotesqueBeauty said:
lol, patchter was always a dumbass, but he rebuilt his image since but i saw through the facade sadly mostly dont. quotes like this kinda just shows his true self. his crappy webshow is still among the highest scored on gt which make me weep.
its just incredible that someone that doesnt contribute or even create anything tangible to a society can make well above a 6 figure income then criticize the ones that make your job even possible.
its just incredible that someone that doesnt contribute or even create anything tangible to a society can make well above a 6 figure income then criticize the ones that make your job even possible.
I believe the 40 hour work week was created by Henry Ford. He did a lot of experiments on his works to find the optimum output, and found that if they worked more than 40 hours that their productivity started to decline. So, 40 hours is optimal productivity for manual labor.Steve Youngblood said:
However, recent studies have shown that fewer hours, even a four day work week, increase employee education and health, and the increased amount of leisure/family time boosts the economy (since everybody is out spending). Ultimately, I think it is better for the employee and better for the company, since productivity per-hour also increases. Not as much solitaire being played, I guess.
Taking the direct opposite and having the game industry where you work 80 hours a week is terrible to employee health and productivity. It's just a bad idea.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Michael Pachter: Ice King
HeresSomeWeapons
Member
I don't get it. If you are a salary employee and you have to work overtime to meet your deadline, then you fucking do it. It doesn't mean you're supposed to be paid extra for it. This is exactly what Pachter is saying, and I 100% agree with him.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I'm honestly not in favor of long hours. I was just stating that I'm not steadfastly against the notion that extra hours will be worked by professionals with a sense of responsibility. However, I've already argued that I think the notion of the 80 hour work week as acceptable is rather silly, especially given his expectation that this could go on for as long as six months.Sqorgar said:
badcrumble
Member
The eight-hour day was put forward by unions in the first place, actually.Sqorgar said:
Death Dealer
Member
HeresSomeWeapons said:
+1 bunch of cry babies.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Death Dealer said:
yeah fuck team bondi what a bunch of pinko pussies
Mechanized
Member
I do get that it is a bad and unfair business practice to work 18 months non-stop overtime, I dont think anybody was entitled to overtime pay.
I don't see the problem with this comment. You sign the contract, you know what you're in for.
Legally they are not entitled to any overtime pay. This is the contract they signed and agreed to.
Pacther is just stating the facts. It's not like he has some kind of agenda against people getting paid.
I don't see the problem with this comment. You sign the contract, you know what you're in for.
Legally they are not entitled to any overtime pay. This is the contract they signed and agreed to.
Pacther is just stating the facts. It's not like he has some kind of agenda against people getting paid.
alexthekid
Member
wtf in what kind of fucked up system can people think like this? When you sign up for the job, does it say right out exactly what you should do and how long you can do it? Otherwise its bullshit!HeresSomeWeapons said:
"to meet your deadline" What if the employer decides to layoff 10% of the workforce and keep the said deadline. Or just expand the project.
I can understand your statement if your job is to deliver newspapers and you have a specific amount to deliver every day AND are on salary. If you cant make it in time you havent been able to do the job you signed up for in time and therefore you can expect a little crunch. But if you have a manager telling you what to do during the project its simply wrong. Workers should learn to stand united even in the US. Fight the good fight comrades!
XANDER CAGE
Member
Mechanized said:
Except for the part where he says he has "no sympathy". It's true that most of the shitty things happening at Team Bondi are technically above board, the issue is that a lot of people feel that should change. It's all well and good to say "well you signed the contract so tuff stuff" but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to question the contract and work towards a better one for yourself and people in similar situations.
badcrumble
Member
There's legal precedent stating otherwise. Salaried employees can still sue for unpaid overtime because a salary contract isn't and shouldn't be treated as a license to exploit your employees unfairly.Mechanized said:
Also this. The pure-legalist approach completely ignores the fact that it's entirely legitimate and appropriate to criticize the contract and the law.BigJiantRobut said:
I was surprised to find out that apparently everybody in the games industry works for salary. I suppose then that it is fair for them to work extra without additional pay, but god damn, some companies in this industry has unrealistic expectations about what you can put a person through. I guarantee quality suffers.
Meanwhile I work in the medical field and not only do I get paid overtime, I'm also paid extra for working evening and weekend hours. These poor programming chumps need to organize and fight against these conditions.
Meanwhile I work in the medical field and not only do I get paid overtime, I'm also paid extra for working evening and weekend hours. These poor programming chumps need to organize and fight against these conditions.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
And neither does Pachter according to the article. He just doesn't have any sympathy for people who subject themselves to those insane working conditions and then complain about it after the fact.Emerson said:
Manmademan
Member
soldat7 said:
this. Salaried positions don't qualify for overtime. Depending on the industry you're in, this can be good or bad- If Team bondi was eligible for bonuses (hourly employees rarely get these) it should be a wash.
If they haven't been paid on bonuses they're entitled to, thats a whole different issue.
LiK said:
Or they need to flock to the companies that treat their employees right- such as Valve and Stardock, and I'm sure a few others.
HeresSomeWeapons said:
That said, bosses should make reasonable expectations on when something can be done, not try to cram 2 yrs of work into 1.
f0rk said:
Please quote stuff from the article that puts the said into a good light. Or do you mean
The thing he quoted, Team Bondi, people came straight out saying they were not compensated for their overtime. Heck, you left the project one year before the end, you'd be cut from the fucking credits.
Or how about the Call of Duty fiasco with Activision laying off the whole studio after completion where they had to sue for their bonuses?
I have yet do hear about one coder who earns a "ton of money".
Oh wait, yeah, the producer and director can earn a metric shitton.
Aparently he completely missed out on reading McNamara's interview. That man validated all claims against him in a lavish "Well, I am simply an ethusiastic person who cares deeply".
Really really? There is a crapton of hard work in development that is comparatively badly compensated. Just like being a Doctor in a public hospital here.
So f0rk, what's your argument for Pachter?
badcrumble
Member
Actually, if he thinks nothing should be done to change the conditions, then he precisely does think that what happened at Team Bondi was okay, his intellectually dishonest disclaimers aside.RiccochetJ said:
zomgbbqftw
Banned
I think he has a point, to some degree. Really the problem is that for every person who doesn't do the unpaid overtime there are 10 that will right now in the gaming industry. That will change over time where the industry stabilises and the number of people entering the industry slows as growth peaks.
On the point of unpaid overtime, developers I know get paid quite handsomely and they get large bonuses for their troubles, especially if they meet the sales targets. So honestly, the overtime might be unpaid in absolute terms, but they are compensated for it with higher salaries than regular developers and better bonus structures.
On the point of unpaid overtime, developers I know get paid quite handsomely and they get large bonuses for their troubles, especially if they meet the sales targets. So honestly, the overtime might be unpaid in absolute terms, but they are compensated for it with higher salaries than regular developers and better bonus structures.