All I know that in most if not all of Europe not paying your employees for their work is considered a crime. We recently had a case with a farmer in the Netherlands who refused to pay her workers for overtime and pretty much ran a sweatshop. Needless to say she's arrested, fined and send to prison I believe.
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"Unpaid crunch deserves no sympathy" - Michael Pachter
- Thread starter NotTheGuyYouKill
- Start date
OldJadedGamer said:
Because Blizzard is the norm - let's ignore all the other game studios where 0 overtime is paid, and 0 bonuses are handed out. This isn't the period of Doom where id Software could afford Ferraris. Bonuses are not the norm. And if you do get bonuses they definitely aren't as high as your yearly salary. Heck, nobody would be complaining if that was the case.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Massa said:
Just pointing out that bonuses are a part of the pay along with their normal salary. Looking at salary alone isn't logical in this discussion.
FateBreaker
Member
What a piece of shit. How anyone can say that is beyond me.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
A lot of employers expect new hires (cleverly called interns) to work for free for 1-3 years before they're considered qualified for a paid position.AShep said:
It's bullshit. Just because people do it doesn't mean it's legal or smart.
Visualante
Member
Like DICE?ProfessorMoran said:
Also remember an anecdoate about EA bonuses, the studio gets a bonus based on how the game sells.. for instance a million dollars. It's up to the studio to decide how that's split. So if the studio manager/owner wants to keep half for themselves they can do. But yeah, the bonus was like.. half an annual salary. But yeah Pachter ignores the non AAA developers. Games that bomb, companies that don't pay out bonuses.
The problem with this stance is that it assumes that the system in place has a certain level of benevolence that it doesn't have (if people are to systematically not expect overtime pay, how will they ever come to negotiate an hourly rate with overtime?); the position that what is current is what is right has a tendency to obfuscate the urgency for change in certain areas. The number of those who expect overtime in an industry where they don't get it is indicative of this, which is also why there is a tendency for gamers (and I would imagine most of the broad expanse that is the left-wing) to sympathize with employees who say that they feel that their entrance into game design/programming/whatever is a labor of love and that that status is being exploited to result in an underpaid workforce. As a result, I would surmise that the majority of the flak that you are getting is directed at the part of your position that states that you think it's alright for a corporation to exploit wages out of those who are so desperate to work in an industry that they have no choices other than to take it or leave the industry. This comes off as particularly scathing at a time where the wealth gap between the rich and poor is on the rise.michaelpachter said:
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Tempy said:
How many Blizzard or Valve employees do you hear complaining even though they work OT hours for free? Btw, working on a huge high profile Rockstar game isn't the norm either but that is who is complaining.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Freshmaker said:
We have a winner. Take away the option to get your guys to work all weekend for free and suddenly you may see some proactive management.
AShep said:
The issue to me isn't the existence of unpaid overtime, I work a lot of it myself. It's the institutionalisation of poor management practices which lead to unrealistic commitments being made which will eventually have to be delivered on by coders working their balls off for free.
arnoldocastillo2003
Member
What in the fuck? I am mindblowned, even I who live on a Third World Country and the Second Most Poorest Country of Latin America (NICARAGUA), I get paid for "crunch/overtime" hours, the hell is wrong with the USA?
I've known about issues at DICE, like quite insane working hours, suddenly moved deadlines and whatnot but I never recall them not paying their employees for the hours they worked.Visualante said:
Tell me US GAF, if you're not working for money what the hell are you working for? I'll be honest, sure unpaid overtime happens sometimes, up to a few hours when you need to finish something and try to show the company that you work for that you're trying to do a good job. But someone who gets paid 40 hours and works 60/70 or even 80 hours without getting paid for the extra work would be considered mental.
This reads more to me like a report on the extent of the epidemic more than it does an argument in favor of unpaid overtime. I'm not saying you meant this post to read as an argument in favor of unpaid overtime; just saying.AShep said:
But what good is the union if the default position is assumed good, as is what Pachter's argument tells us?jorma said:
Version 3.0
Member
1. There are laws that limit how much "overtime" a salaried employee can be required to work. Salary <> slave.
2. Purely as a logic exercise, "get used to it or go work somewhere else" or "that's just the way it is" are about the poorest logic possible. If that attitude were universally accepted, no industry or job would be any better. Yes, some jobs are harder than others. Yes, some jobs come with "crunch time". There's more to the issue than that.
I've often disagreed with Mr. Pachter, but this is the first time I've thought that he deserves for bad things to happen to him. I hope he drops his ice cream on the floor. What a jerk.
2. Purely as a logic exercise, "get used to it or go work somewhere else" or "that's just the way it is" are about the poorest logic possible. If that attitude were universally accepted, no industry or job would be any better. Yes, some jobs are harder than others. Yes, some jobs come with "crunch time". There's more to the issue than that.
I've often disagreed with Mr. Pachter, but this is the first time I've thought that he deserves for bad things to happen to him. I hope he drops his ice cream on the floor. What a jerk.
Visualante
Member
Might be because they're unionized.[Nintex] said:
OldJadedGamer said:
Like I said multiple times in this thread already. Working unpaid overtime is to be expected in this industry. A lot of people will gladly do so in order to deliver a quality product. You don't hear Blizzard or Valve employees complaining because they get treated well. They don't treat people well at Rockstar. They don't just have to work some overtime over there, they have to work A LOT.
Obviously there is not adequate mobility in this industry; if there was the Team Bondi situation could not have occurred. Employees would simply not have put up with it. I'm a salaried employee; I'm also a professional. If I'm given a task I get it done; on the other hand, if I'm overburdened with work I have a heart-to-heart with my supervisor and, if the results are unsatisfactory to me, I walk.
I doubt the people at Team Bondi were unaware of that process. Rather, they probably felt they couldn't find other better work in the field. Thus Pachter's argument fails: you have freedom to walk out of the job but you don't have the freedom to expect another, better job waiting for you. This is due in part to the absurd, "big stakes poker" style business plan of blockbuster games development; in part to the rush of dumb kids trying to get into the industry who, despite Pachter's protestations, really don't understand the cost they'll pay in their social and family lives by entering what sounds like a jolly fun career, and who provide a constant influx of fresh, low cost labor to exploit; and in part due to the general economic malaise.
I doubt the people at Team Bondi were unaware of that process. Rather, they probably felt they couldn't find other better work in the field. Thus Pachter's argument fails: you have freedom to walk out of the job but you don't have the freedom to expect another, better job waiting for you. This is due in part to the absurd, "big stakes poker" style business plan of blockbuster games development; in part to the rush of dumb kids trying to get into the industry who, despite Pachter's protestations, really don't understand the cost they'll pay in their social and family lives by entering what sounds like a jolly fun career, and who provide a constant influx of fresh, low cost labor to exploit; and in part due to the general economic malaise.
Ok, so far the only argument i have seen for no overtime payments is that 'salary workers don't get overtime, it's how things are'.
As an employee within the uk my government has stated that my employer can require me to work no more than 45 hrs a week without my written consent. Can anyone ease tell me why I would be better off under the American system? If not can you explain why you are better off than I?
Please note I'm not interested in what's better for the business, I'm looking at worker benefits here.
As an employee within the uk my government has stated that my employer can require me to work no more than 45 hrs a week without my written consent. Can anyone ease tell me why I would be better off under the American system? If not can you explain why you are better off than I?
Please note I'm not interested in what's better for the business, I'm looking at worker benefits here.
LestradeTGQ
Neo Member
I'm really surprised at Pachter's comments, though perhaps I shouldn't be.
For reference, I worked as a salaried employee in the graphic design business for the better part of 10 years. I never worked anything close to a 70 hour week, not once. I know a lot of people who did, and they didn't make any overtime, and weren't getting paid much more than me. I simply refused to buy into the live-to-work lifestyle, and you know what? It never affected my work, never affected my career.
I run my own business now, and I still don't do this. Maybe I could earn $40k more than I make now if I did, but my health would fail and I'd be miserable. My motto has always been, "if you have to work 80 hours a week, you're doing it wrong."
A mentor of mine taught me long ago: when you work under salary, you're selling your worth (your work hours) wholesale. No overtime, rarely no extra vacation. When you're contracted, or work for yourself, you charge for every hour, and you make money on every hour. There's a tradeoff, of course, but you're in control.
This is important, because the dirty joke of all "creative" industries is that employees are often meant to feel as they should buy in, give it their all, be "passionate," take it for the team. But make no mistake: you may be rendering grass textures seven days a week, but your boss is totally playing golf. If you're Ed Boon and you make shit-tonnes of money plus hefty bonuses, by all means, fill your boots and work as much as you want. But if you're background artist #23 making $45k/year and you have kids at home to raise, why the fuck would you want to work unpaid overtime? For your career? For the good of the project? Please.
Just because a bad precedent exists, doesn't mean it should. By Pachter's logic we should all be making Foxconn money and be happy about it.
This industry will continue to mature, and developers will, eventually, realize they're worth more than whatever Bobby Kotick thinks they're worth--including overtime.
For reference, I worked as a salaried employee in the graphic design business for the better part of 10 years. I never worked anything close to a 70 hour week, not once. I know a lot of people who did, and they didn't make any overtime, and weren't getting paid much more than me. I simply refused to buy into the live-to-work lifestyle, and you know what? It never affected my work, never affected my career.
I run my own business now, and I still don't do this. Maybe I could earn $40k more than I make now if I did, but my health would fail and I'd be miserable. My motto has always been, "if you have to work 80 hours a week, you're doing it wrong."
A mentor of mine taught me long ago: when you work under salary, you're selling your worth (your work hours) wholesale. No overtime, rarely no extra vacation. When you're contracted, or work for yourself, you charge for every hour, and you make money on every hour. There's a tradeoff, of course, but you're in control.
This is important, because the dirty joke of all "creative" industries is that employees are often meant to feel as they should buy in, give it their all, be "passionate," take it for the team. But make no mistake: you may be rendering grass textures seven days a week, but your boss is totally playing golf. If you're Ed Boon and you make shit-tonnes of money plus hefty bonuses, by all means, fill your boots and work as much as you want. But if you're background artist #23 making $45k/year and you have kids at home to raise, why the fuck would you want to work unpaid overtime? For your career? For the good of the project? Please.
Just because a bad precedent exists, doesn't mean it should. By Pachter's logic we should all be making Foxconn money and be happy about it.
This industry will continue to mature, and developers will, eventually, realize they're worth more than whatever Bobby Kotick thinks they're worth--including overtime.
This is why i'm glad EU countries have this shit by law so people don't feel obligated to work long hours to do well in their careers.AShep said:
Being expected to work overtime without pay just seems wrong. It's sad that it's considered 'normal' in states and even sadder is the attitude of 'just deal with it' or 'my industry has the same problem so don't whine, nobody can have it well!'.
These strong labour laws don't seem to have negative effects on nordic game development as there seems to be a lot of studios(considering sizes of countries) and very successful ones(DICE, Rovio, Remedy, Housemarque etc.).
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Commanche Raisin Toast said:
It won't truly stop until incompetant sociopaths are no longer promoted to producer or publisher boardrooms.
Yes, let us leave the ad hominem at the door, internet peoples.remnant said:
I sincerely disagree with this. I think that death marching in the game industry is endemic to the situation and isn't the responsibility of any one group of people. The nature of the work and the cultural background are the real force drivers here.SatelliteOfLove said:
Version 3.0
Member
AShep said:
Define "very far". I have a job that I love, get paid a decent salary and I am absolutely out the door at 5pm every day, with rare exceptions, of course. My philosophy is, "if I can't accomplish it in my shift, it's not a one-man job". And my work ethic, volume and quality are universally praised by my co-workers and bosses alike. My many promotions haven't been due to bloating my hours. There are still places where work is still valued over time, and the two are not confused.
stufte
Member
AShep said:
As someone who has in the past and is currently working copious amounts of overtime, I can tell you that (especially in the video game industry) you can work your ass off for a game to come out and still get laid off at the end. In this industry, there is no correlation between overtime worked and advancement in the company.
Version 3.0
Member
stutte said:
And here's the flip side. In my experience, the company that insists you devote your life to your job is the least likely to recognize you for doing so.
[Nintex] said:
The fact is they don't get paid to work 40 hours a week, they get paid a salary to work as much as is required to get the job done and I'm sure it says this very clearly in the contract that they signed. They are getting paid for all the work they do just not on an hourly basis.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Nobody is disputing this fact. What we take issue with is that most employers tell coders they will need to work overtime now and then, but through their poor management end up making them work overtime as a rule, not an exception.Sky Chief said:
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Sky Chief said:
Wow, you are right. I just pulled my old offer letter that was for a salary position and there is no mention of hours at all. Never even paid attention to that.
These laws are mostly old, and came at a time when most americans worked hourly. Salaried workers have become common fairly recently. If revisited today it would probably change.no angel said:
That said, most salary workers get compensation packages and benefits hourly folks would never get. bonuses, much stronger job security, etc etc
michaelpachter
He speaks, and we freak
nexen said:
I am not OK with any industry requiring people to do that if they don't buy into it. There are some professions (lawyers, CPAs, investment bankers, emergency room physicians) where everyone who aspires to success buys into the concept of working crazy hours. I've had a couple of those jobs, and clearly, I buy into it.
One of the reasons I have the job I do is that it starts early, so I generally work "only" 12 hours, and go home by 6 to have dinner with my family, then work an hour at night before bed. I also make phone calls to clients from the car in both directions, maximizing my ability to get work done throughout the day. If I was on the East Coast, I would never see my family, and it would not work out for me.
I admit that I don't know anyone at Team Bondi, and don't know what they bought into. I know hundreds of developers, and most expect to work hard and long hours. I said on the Pach-Attack that extended crunch time is inappropriate, but 3 - 6 months every two years seems like what people sign on for, and nobody should be surprised if that happens.
Many of my friends have jobs that never require long hours. I have friends who are teachers and firefighters, and in large part, they selected these professions because of the amount of free time. I also know many who have jobs with long hours. Those who love their jobs knew what they were getting into. Those who hate their (long hour) jobs seem to me to have not spent enough time up front investigating what they were getting into.
The world would be a better place if everyone had high wages and lots of free time. However, capitalism dictates that somebody can make a profit only if they produce their product for less than they sell it for. In order to keep costs down, employers have an incentive to fix their payrolls, and squeeze more work out of their employees for the same wages. I don't think this is fair, or even right, but think it reflects the world right now. Unions could fix this, but they would then cause costs to rise, profits to decline, and result in more layoffs in the games industry. Few games companies make profits anymore, and I think that unions would have the potential to cause many to shut down.
The year and a half of crunch time you asked about is never justified, and I do not think it's right. Sleeping on the floor is also never justified. I think it's important to manage projects effectively, and to minimize overtime unless necessary. That means acceptable overtime and acceptable crunch periods. Team Bondi may have exceeded what is acceptable, and if you watch my video, you'll see I didn't endorse their project management. However, I still do not believe overtime is warranted for salaried workers, nor do I think it is appropriate to do the work and complain about it after the fact. If you don't want to work overtime, find a job without overtime. If you work in game development, it's likely you will be asked to work unpaid overtime.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
nexen said:
A team going in as one and working 80 hour weeks of their own volition is far FAR nobler than what sparked the original statement from Pachter.
It was also hashed out repeatedly how McNamara and others in positions of authority went huge with assets and scope for LAN, and death marched to make it happen (with lots of help from R*...).
There is also the taste this generation has for ZOMG CONTENT QUANTITY, but blaming the gamer is tricky as shit to get away with, much less make stick.
Open Source
Banned
AiTM said:
Where I live (California), the vast majority of video game jobs are exempt from overtime pay because their salary meets a certain threshold.
As I've said in the past, if not working overtime is important to you, find a company or industry that doesn't make you work overtime. As already mentioned, some occupations, such as medicine and law, require huge amounts of extra hours. Even places like Pixar work their employees hard.
Theonik
Member
You are entitled to the pay you negotiated with your employer however and if you negotiated to be paid X amount of money for Y amount of work you should expect to be compensated for any time you have to work extra to the time you are paid to work. In most countries outside the US and most industries not getting paid for overtime and especially this being done for prolonged periods of time to a massive extent is unheard of and seems much like slavery.DaBuddaDa said:
Edit: Disclaimer, I am not familiar to how work contracts work in the US so I'm comparing it with standards I know and in most of Europe working more than 8 hours a day and not being paid overtime is illegal.
stufte
Member
remnant said:
*snerk* Sorry, just relating that to the game industry is funny. Though I get fantastic medical benefits....
Have yet to see a bonus though in my almost 7 years in the industry, but part of that can be attributed to moving to a new company before a bonus could be dolled out.