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[jdmonmou]

Just watched the Pachter show and his argument against overtime was that at the end there would be generous bonuses for all employees. But, my question is, since there is such a high turnover rate, how will those developers that no longer work for Team Bondi be compensated?

These complaints from the Team Bondi employees didn't just come from thin air, so I side with the employees. If these people were so lavishly paid/compensated as Pachter assumes all game developers are, I don't think you would be seeing all the complaints and criticism.

Rockstar has a real problem on its hands with this. If people know that this is how their employees are treated, how are they going to continue to attract & recruit top talent?

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

I just wanted to ask a question because ive seen various kinds of responses, but are you even allowed overtime pay if you are on a salary?

 

[nexen]

Corporations love to live in the space between the boundaries of what's legal and what's ethical, as long as it lowers their costs. Unfortunately the only real way to kill the scuzzier end of such practices is to not give them your money, which is hard to do when so few voices sympathetic to the employees get their voices out over the gaming press. It's probably why people are so mad at Pachter, they want him to be the mouthpiece for the downtrodden employees but there's nothing in his job description that requires that.

Yeah, change will never come from the consumer side. People will only consider price and the quality of the experience, not how much suffering it took to bring to market. See: pig farms.
The only way I could see worrying about what Pachter has to say about this issue (other than raw curiosity) is if I cared about its impact on a company's profitability.

 

[FrankT]

I just wanted to ask a question because ive seen various kinds of responses, but are you even allowed overtime pay if you are on a salary?

Wife gets paid big bucks in straight time on salary per hour over. Good thing she isn't in the game making biz.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Working to meet a deadline. It obviously doesn't mean 20 hour days where you bring a pillow to work, but staying late all week and popping in on Saturdays to make sure stuff is done is not an unfamiliar practice to many, many professionals.

If our deadline is "complete the game that ships in six months", do you think that months on end of 14 hour work days and working weekends is acceptable? Because I gather that Michael Pachter thinks that it is. I don't understand how I'm twisting his position. That's what he argued.

He responded to someone asking about the allegedly horrific working conditions at Team Bondi with an ineloquent admission that while he apparently doesn't endorse the extent of the alleged conditions, it's important to note that professional developers work crunch times, and if you aren't prepared to practically (though not literally since he draws a line there) live at work, then pick a different profession. Have a wife, kid, and house? Become a school teacher or a laborer who specializes in repetitive manual labor.

If you aren't prepared to dedicate three months a year to 100 plus hour work weeks to make sure the world gets great works like LA Noire, then games development may not be for you.

 

[EternalGamer]

Corporations love to live in the space between the boundaries of what's legal and what's ethical, as long as it lowers their costs. Unfortunately the only real way to kill the scuzzier end of such practices is to not give them your money, which is hard to do when so few voices sympathetic to the employees get their voices out over the gaming press. It's probably why people are so mad at Pachter, they want him to be the mouthpiece for the downtrodden employees but there's nothing in his job description that requires that.

You're right there isn't anything that requires it. But he has become someone who is featured regularly on videogame podcasts and even has his own little show on GameTrailers. And people CAN chose to demand that the gaming media personalities they pay attention to are people that are more sympathetic.

 

[nexen]

You're right there isn't anything that requires it. But he has become someone who is featured regularly on videogame podcasts and even has his own little show on GameTrailers. And people CAN chose to demand that the gaming media personalities they pay attention to are people that are more sympathetic.

I didn't think about that aspect of it. I forgot he had become a sort of gaming culture celebrity. Good point.

 

[Littlegator]

Seems like most people on gaf don't really understand the concept of salary pay.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

And people CAN chose to demand that the gaming media personalities they pay attention to are people that are more sympathetic.

Choosing to not watch is preferable to 'demanding' (whatever that entails); As long as Pachter's broadcasts keep reeling in all those ad banner impressions I see no reason why he'd listen to mere demands.

 

[nexen]

Seems like most people on gaf don't really understand the concept of salary pay.

Seems like you didn't read much of the thread.
Living to only work should not be required for anyone, salary or no.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Seems like most people on gaf don't really understand the concept of salary pay.

Most don't understand bonus pay either.

 

[EternalGamer]

I didn't think about that aspect of it. I forgot he had become a sort of gaming culture celebrity. Good point.

I personally subscribed to both his Twitter Feed and Patch-Attack. I think I will unsubscribe to both.

Anyone who follows his Twitter feed knows that he is pretty obbessed with his "clout" (some kind of social media program that measures your cultural impact). He talks about his "clout" numbers on Twitter all the time.

I am not unsubscribing simply because I disagree but because I can only support/consume so much gaming media and I want gaming media personalities that I think are more considerate. There are very few areas where this is even an issue (we are talking about videogames, after all) but how workers are treated is one of the rare places where we are talking about something that is of actual consequent and does have a real impact on someone's life.


I don't really care whether or not someone likes the same games/consoles I do, nor do I have to have them have espouse all the same political or cultural perspectives as me. But when someone is such a blatant apologist for the exploitation of others while simultaneously bragging about his "clout" and how expensive his scotch and cigars are, well, it just goes beyond what I find palatable.

 

[EternalGamer]

Choosing to not watch is preferable to 'demanding' (whatever that entails); As long as Pachter's broadcasts keep reeling in all those ad banner impressions I see no reason why he'd listen to mere demands.

Well, I was using "demanding" in a broader since of how gaming media is shaped by the taste of its consumers. Obviously Patcher is not going to rethink his position. I'm not sure he has ever done that on anything as far as I can tell. He just says things and then smiles in a cocky (charming but cocky) way at anyone who opposes him.

 

[EternalGamer]

Most don't understand bonus pay either.

Both of those things say interesting things about the economic demographics of most of the people on this site, no?

 

[McHuj]

Living to only work should not be required for anyone, salary or no.

It's not. Working in the games industry is a choice, not indentured servitude.

 

[Littlegator]

Seems like you didn't read much of the thread.
Living to only work should not be required for anyone, salary or no.

You're right, I gave up after about 2 pages of constant complaining.

People entering the industry know what they're getting into. If they don't, they probably should have done some research.

It is known that the video game industry has crunch time. It is known, before accepting a job, that you will receive salary pay. It is known that there will not be overtime for that salary pay.

There is nothing to complain about.

 

[Jokeropia]

I just wanted to ask a question because ive seen various kinds of responses, but are you even allowed overtime pay if you are on a salary?

In most of Europe, yes. In America apparently, no.

 

[Open Source]

Maybe not a drop in applicants, sure, but definitely a drop in highly qualified industry professionals who applied. People desperate to get into the industry will put up will all sorts of punishment, Vets on the other hand, are less likely to put up with it.

Maybe, but EA also pays really well, probably better than any other company out there. Plus it offers more stability and job security than just about any other company. That is why vets actually move from smaller/less established companies to EA and similar places when they get married, have kids, buy a house, and so on.

 

[nexen]

You're right, I gave up after about 2 pages of constant complaining.

People entering the industry know what they're getting into. If they don't, they probably should have done some research.

It is known that the video game industry has crunch time. It is known, before accepting a job, that you will receive salary pay. It is known that there will not be overtime for that salary pay.

There is nothing to complain about.

Crunch isn't really the problem for me. Death marches are.
What I, at least, have been complaining about are teams and companies that will work their employees far beyond reasonability under the pretense that "sometimes you need to do overtime"
Sleeping at the office for months on end. Only time you aren't working is because you are going to the bathroom or taking a shower kind of death marches. That shit should be illegal. Period. End of story.

 

[G_Berry]

Pachter, what a cunt.

 

[lowrider007]

....

That's a little uncalled for isn't it?

 

[Rufus]

There is nothing to complain about.

Right, there are no degrees of severity to salaried overtime at all. Clearly.

 

[EternalGamer]

I have a question that maybe someone else here can answer.

In his video Patcher claims that one of the reasons he isn't sympathetic for game developers is that "you can make from 500,000 to 1,000,000 a year" doing it. How common is this?

What is the average salary of a game developer?

I mean, I guess if it were several hundred thousand a year or something I can see doing soul crushing labor for 10 years or something and then retiring.

 

[nexen]

I have a question that maybe someone else here can answer.

In his video Patcher claims that one of the reasons he isn't sympathetic for game developers is that "you can make from 500,000 to 1,000,000 a year" doing it. How common is this?

What is the average salary of a game developer.

I mean, I guess if it were several hundred thousand a year or something I can see doing soul crushing labor for 10 years or something and then retiring.

$80k I believe, but doesn't that include everyone?
Most of the people death marching are rank and file though, not management and production. Those guys may hang around all hours for morale purposes and whatnot but upper level management shouldn't be touching the game directly except at smaller companies.

 

[tafer]

Oh boy, this thread is amazing... but at the end, I finally confirmed that this clown (Pachter) has no idea of what he is talking about.

 

[Neuromancer]

Yeah, change will never come from the consumer side. People will only consider price and the quality of the experience, not how much suffering it took to bring to market. See: pig farms.
The only way I could see worrying about what Pachter has to say about this issue (other than raw curiosity) is if I cared about its impact on a company's profitability.

I'm definitely going to think twice about buying a Team Bondi game next time around, that's for sure. I regretted buying LA Noire after heard this news, and sold it back. I like to think it robbed Rockstar/2K of a new game sale.

 

[Open Source]

So you're insinuating that not only will unionization make the average worker less productive, but that anyone who wants to receive fair compensation for their labor and expects reasonable working conditions is only in it for the money. That's some really foul slander, man.

Yes, if someone is limited by either contract or budget to 40 hour weeks, they will almost surely be less productive than if they worked 60 hour weeks.

As for the second part, I don't know how you got that from what I said. Someone who wants "fair compensation and reasonable working conditions" can apply to work at businesses that offer the desired terms. There are companies within and without the game industry that do so. If your current company isn't a good fit, then go elsewhere. If you can't go elsewhere because of the recession or your limited experience or whatever, well, beggars can't be choosers - maybe you only have your current job because someone more qualified left to find better work conditions elsewhere.

 

[Littlegator]

Right, there are no degrees of severity to salaried overtime at all. Clearly.

If it is at too severe of a degree, the employee can terminate employment at any time.

 

[FGMPR]

The snake-oil salesman is at it again...

 

[water_wendi]

If it is at too severe of a degree, the employee can terminate employment at any time.

This kind of mentality leads to people coming in and shooting the management.

 

[Throwaway123456789]

If a company tried to do this shit here in Norway they'd get strung up and flogged by the government in no time. It's pretty much illegal.

 

[vaelic]

I don't get it. If you are a salary employee and you have to work overtime to meet your deadline, then you fucking do it. It doesn't mean you're supposed to be paid extra for it. This is exactly what Pachter is saying, and I 100% agree with him.

exactly

 

[EternalGamer]

$80k I believe, but doesn't that include everyone?
Most of the people death marching are rank and file though, not management and production. Those guys may hang around all hours for morale purposes and whatnot but upper level management shouldn't be touching the game directly except at smaller companies.

So average for someone no in management is around $80K? If that is the case, I'm not sure how the heck he thinks that justifies giving up basically your entire life.

 

[Littlegator]

This kind of mentality leads to people coming in and shooting the management.

I'm trying to figure out if you're just making fun of my choice of words, or if you have some ridiculous line of thinking that actually leads you to believe this.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Companies should have to abide by the stipulations in their contracts just as their employees do.

It is bullshit how many corporate apologists are out there nowadays.

Any reasonable contract will have working hours stated inside it as well. There is also going to usually be an article explaining how overtime would be handled.

Employers shouldn't be allowed to ignore these parts and make people do unpaid overtime.

I personally get paid shit and work overtime almost every day, but I do it because I love my job and what I do. Would I be happier if I got overtime though? Damn right I would.

 

[water_wendi]

I'm trying to figure out if you're just making fun of my choice of words, or if you have some ridiculous line of thinking that actually leads you to believe this.

i was just pointing out there are sometimes consequences for being brutal with peoples livelihoods. If someone feels their well-being or family is threatened, they do crazy things.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

"If you don't like it then maybe you should just quit." Is a terrible attitude to have about anything.

 

[wonderdung]

Salary has tradeoffs, so does hourly + overtime pay. Neither one is slavery, both can be exploitative but are not by default.

No problem with salary myself. I get higher pay than I would if I was paid hourly and benefits. If we compare overtime worked vs bonuses paid I'm significantly ahead of where I'd be if I had been paid overtime with no bonus, though that may be rare in the game industry. Of course there are downsides, occasional overtime is one of them and bonus payments are a dice roll.

I know in fields that pay overtime to hourly employees there's a lot of abuse. Slacking during regular hours to get that time and a half on Saturday, etc. It's not like either system is perfect.

Here's the thing. When you sign an employment contract you agree to its terms. If those terms involve unpaid overtime and you agree to them, you don't get to go "Well, shit. I'm being ever so exploited" when something you agreed to happens. It's not a matter of working in the game industry meaning overtime, because frankly that's a bullshit expectation. It's a matter of knowing what you agreed to, and not agreeing to things you don't actually want to do.

And for the record, some of the Team Bondi guys are saying weekends were paid. That whole controversy is more about project management than pay as far as I can tell.

 

[Open Source]

So average for someone no in management is around $80K? If that is the case, I'm not sure how the heck he thinks that justifies giving up basically your entire life.

When I was in the military, I worked probably twice as hard as I do now, longer hours, less enjoyable, for about $12k/yr plus a barracks room and crappy chow. I couldn't quit until I'd put in four years, and I had to live on-base stationed wherever the government saw fit to move me.

So before you (Americans) start crying about how tough game developers have it, call up your elected representatives and pitch a fit about military pay instead.

 

[Kogepan]

deleted

 

[nexen]

I'm definitely going to think twice about buying a Team Bondi game next time around, that's for sure. I regretted buying LA Noire after heard this news, and sold it back. I like to think it robbed Rockstar/2K of a new game sale.

There are people who use their moral compass to determine their purchasing habits. I like that trend. But I think it is far too weak a force in aggregate to overcome corporate profit seeking. We need bigger guns.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

"If you don't like it then maybe you should just quit." Is a terrible attitude to have about anything.

I don't really understand why people offer it up as a sort of worthwhile, no-nonsense suggestion. First of all, many have argued why it's not a great, one-size-fits-all solution. And secondly, I don't recall anyone suggesting that they were oblivious to the possibility. "Wait, I can quit? I just assumed they'd kill my family if I tried. Thanks, stranger. I'll type up my letter of resignation now!"

 

[Littlegator]

"If you don't like it then maybe you should just quit." Is a terrible attitude to have about anything.

Yet that's how the real world works.

 

[Card Boy]

Pachter, what a cunt.

You do realize your insulting another Gaf member right?

 

[Curufinwe]

Most don't understand bonus pay either.

Did the people who only worked on LA Noire for three or four years out of the seven it was in development get bonus pay?

 

[water_wendi]

I don't really understand why people offer it up as a sort of worthwhile, no-nonsense suggestion. First of all, many have argued why it's not a great, one-size-fits-all solution. And secondly, I don't recall anyone suggesting that they were oblivious to the possibility. "Wait, I can quit? I just assumed they'd kill my family if I tried. Thanks, stranger. I'll type up my letter of resignation now!"

It was likely in response to this..

If it is at too severe of a degree, the employee can terminate employment at any time.

If someone said this to me right now i would get revenge one way or the other. They are basically threatening me with being jobless in one of the worst economic situations to ever hit the US.

Yet that's how the real world works.

Keep pushing people around and youll soon find out how the real world works.

 

[gutter_trash]

it's funny when some 20 year olds say weird shit without thinking how they would last in their 40s?

 

[tafer]

Companies should have to abide by the stipulations in their contracts just as their employees do.

It is bullshit how many corporate apologists are out there nowadays.

Any reasonable contract will have working hours stated inside it as well. There is also going to usually be an article explaining how overtime would be handled.

Employers shouldn't be allowed to ignore these parts and make people do unpaid overtime.

I personally get paid shit and work overtime almost every day, but I do it because I love my job and what I do. Would I be happier if I got overtime though? Damn right I would.

Maybe it is a cultural thing (I hope it is), or maybe these apologists actually think that there is no need to fix this terrible practice because those who get in the industry know what they are getting into. (A nasty marriage of conformism and indifference)

 

[Steve Youngblood]

It was likely in response to this..

If someone said this to me right now i would get revenge one way or the other. They are basically threatening me with being jobless in one of the worst economic situations to ever hit the US.



Keep pushing people around and youll soon find out how the real world works.

Just so we're clear, I was in agreement with PepsimanVsJoe.

 

[water_wendi]

Just so we're clear, I was in agreement with PepsimanVsJoe.

Sorry about that.. i misread. Anger blinds me.