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[michaelpachter]

No, GameTrailers doesn't pay me a dime, nor does any other media outlet. I get paid by Wedbush to help investors make informed decisions about the 18 stocks I cover, including Netflix. Just finished my Netflix note, so I'm 15:45 into my day now.

If you disagree with my opinion, say so. Calling me an idiot is really childish. Calling people who have the same opinion as me (and different ones from yours) an idiot is foolish. You can't change our minds with invective, but perhaps you can with logic.

 

[EternalGamer]

I actually gained respect for him in this thread.

Generally, at certain jobs/income levels, it is not typical to get paid OT. OT is expected as part of your salary. It's just the way it is. In California, for example, for programmers, if you're above a certain salary, you're not obligated to get OT.

I'm above that level (and really, who isn't in this field in CA?). I put in long days of unpaid OT all the time. Do I enjoy it? Well, no, it can get tedious sometimes. But the catch is that you can always work somewhere else.

For game programmers, if they want, they can switch to oh, just about any other programming field and make more money. And work perhaps less hours. But if they choose to continue to be a game programmer knowing all of this, then I have no sympathy. It's a choice. They made their choice. It does not help to complain about it when you can switch jobs with relative ease compared to most other workers.

Yeah, the game developers have a choice.

But you know who also has a choice?

Management has a choice about how they treat their employees.

Consumers have a choice about what they will purchase and support.

Games journalists and media people have a choice about what they think is treatment that is acceptable and what goes beyond the line and deserves their attention/criticism.

Everyone in this thread has a choice about how they feel about people being exploited.

Choices are everywhere along the chain of events. I'm not sure why you put the entire burden of "choice" on the backs of the people who are working the really long hours and ignore all the choices that everybody else is making along the line.

 

[RSTEIN]

My big problem with Patcher's position is that when he says they don't "deserve" better treatment he isn't talking from a legal or an economic standpoint anymore (which are things he frequently likes to hide behind). I don't know who he thinks he is to say what these people "deserve" and I sure as heck don't know why he thinks it is ever ok for people to be treated like this?

The irony is pachter has a job known for it's long hours. The median sell side analyst (pachter's job) salary is 700k. Does he deserve that salary? Who is to say? What is known and not debatable is pachter knew full well he would have to work until 10pm many nights before he signed up for the job. I think that's all he is saying. You sign on the dotted line. It takes two. You can't complain when the shit hits the fan.

 

[inky]

No, GameTrailers doesn't pay me a dime, nor does any other media outlet. I get paid by Wedbush to help investors make informed decisions about the 18 stocks I cover, including Netflix. Just finished my Netflix note, so I'm 15:45 into my day now.

If you disagree with my opinion, say so. Calling me an idiot is really childish. Calling people who have the same opinion as me (and different ones from yours) an idiot is foolish. You can't change our minds with invective, but perhaps you can with logic.

Throwing a tantrum because randoms on the internet call you an idiot is also childish, but you knew that already, so:

Yes, I disagree, and I hope your opinion doesn't come because you are in a more comfortable position than many, but I seriously doubt it. Having a Porsche at the door can do that I guess.

Edit:

I'm not clear what you people want him to do. Crusade for better worker rights at game companies? Shouldn't that be what the workers themselves organize, and not a guy who does market analysis of the gaming industry?

I guess you are right. I guess people here would want him to show a little sympathy, because, you know, he is somewhat related to what these guys do and probably know many of them personally. Not that he should publicly advocate for other group of workers, just not show indifference at a system that somehow seems based on exploitation. I guess a line like:

"if you don't like it do something else for a living instead of complaining" especially in this economic climate comes off as rather insensitive, but what do I know.

 

[Tzeentch]

I'm not clear what you people want him to do. Crusade for better worker rights at game companies? Shouldn't that be what the workers themselves organize, and not a guy who does market analysis of the gaming industry?

 

[Open Source]

So people should either suck it up and accept the status quo or find another line of work. And nobody has any business trying to start a 'crusade' for better working conditions in their chosen field. If they're passionate enough to push for change, they should be focusing on the issues you think are important, not things that directly affect them and their families.

I wonder if you have any idea how insulting you're being when you say these things.

They should
a) suck it up
b) if overtime is such a bad thing for them, be smart enough to find out whether their job will require it before accepting a job offer
c) get any promises from the company in writing
d) find another company or industry (NOT line of work/profession) that better suits their needs

b) c) and d) are all far more effective and realistic methods of making your own personal situation better. If you need someone else to negotiate contract terms for you because you're too inexperienced/timid/whatever, use a headhunter.

What I am saying regarding the crusading is that if you want to fight injustice beyond your personal realm, there are far better and more important ways to expend your effort. If you're just in it because it affects you, then see above.

No one owes you a comfy job that meets your standards in the profession, industry, and company you choose. It's up to you to find work that best meets your needs. If there's no perfect job, well, too bad.

 

[coopolon]

Throwing a tantrum because randoms on the internet call you an idiot is also childish, but you knew that already, so:

Yes, I disagree, and I hope your opinion doesn't come because you are in a more comfortable position than many, but I seriously doubt it. Having a Porsche at the door can do that I guess.

Could you please elaborate on how he has thrown a tantrum? All I've seen him do is describe his working conditions in a relatively polite way (when compared with his attackers, who literally wished him physical harm), reiterate his positions, and ask those who disagree with him to do so without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

 

[Neuromancer]

Throwing a tantrum because randoms call you an idiot is also childish, butyou knew that already, so: Yes, I disagree, and I hope your opinion doesn't come because you are in a more comfortable position than many but I doubt it. Having a Porsche at the door can do that I guess.

What tantrum? I haven't seen him throw a tantrum. I have seen him make long posts detailing his reasoning, which most people ignored, and I've seen people making some pretty outrageous personal attacks against him. But a tantrum, no.

 

[Ledsen]

I wonder 2 things about the people here who think like Pach:

1. Do you come from an alternate universe in which there is an infinite number of jobs/openings for your career.

2. Are you a CEO or executive at a company.

Because these are the only 2 ways that thinking makes sense.

Exactly. Some people seem to live in an economic utopia where labor consists of people without social or economic responsibilites, able to change jobs at a moments notice without a trace of frictional unemployment. If the labor market worked like that unions wouldn't even exist.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

No, GameTrailers doesn't pay me a dime, nor does any other media outlet. I get paid by Wedbush to help investors make informed decisions about the 18 stocks I cover, including Netflix. Just finished my Netflix note, so I'm 15:45 into my day now.

If you disagree with my opinion, say so. Calling me an idiot is really childish. Calling people who have the same opinion as me (and different ones from yours) an idiot is foolish. You can't change our minds with invective, but perhaps you can with logic.

Ok, I've been closer to agreement with you than some, but constantly comparing your work to developers' hours is really ridiculous. Any positions you've held with that kind of overtime likely paid better than what developers are making, and provided you with more opportunity for advancement.

 

[EternalGamer]

No, GameTrailers doesn't pay me a dime, nor does any other media outlet. I get paid by Wedbush to help investors make informed decisions about the 18 stocks I cover, including Netflix. Just finished my Netflix note, so I'm 15:45 into my day now..

I sympathize with the fact that you work long hours and therefore have some idea of what that's like, but I'm not sure how that is relevant to whether or not people should have to work these kinds of hours by force and it be viewed as culturally acceptable. And that's what it seems like is going on here. You don't seem to just be talking about what makes "business sense" or what is "legal" but rather there is connotation to your words that indicate that you think it is culturally acceptable.

Frankly, I don't care how much someone gets paid, life is too short to spend the majority of it the kinds of work environment a lot of people face. If they do so optionally (as in w/o facing the penalty of losing their job) that is a completely different situation, of course.

But what I hear you advocating is that it is socially acceptable that people be put in the type of work situations those at Team Bondi were in. I find that viewpoint unacceptable because I think it undermines what I view as a quality of life issue.

 

[Hari Seldon]

You have to be insane to work in the game industry. I suspect they could get a lot more talent if they didn't have draconian working conditions. Instead of elite programmers going into the game industry, they stay in academia or work at places like Google or MS, or the defense industry, which have much better working conditions for more pay.

 

[inky]

Could you please elaborate on how he has thrown a tantrum?.

What tantrum?.

Bad choice of words on my part.

I meant it as in the way he has been keeping this discussion especially with people on the internet (who tend to get aggressive over many things) instead of calling it a day. I apologize if there was any misunderstanding, I just don't think it was the proper way to do it, that's all.

 

[EternalGamer]

Ok, I've been closer to agreement with you than some, but constantly comparing your work to developers' hours is really ridiculous. Any positions you've held with that kind of overtime likely paid better than what developers are making, and provided you with more opportunity for advancement.

Well, to be fair, if what I've seen of what developer's office environments are like they get bribed with tons of mountain dew, energy drinks, junk food, pizza and beer, so in the long run they may die early and not have to work the same number of years.

Maybe that evens out the intensity level somewhat because their job ceases to be stressful when they are dead.

 

[RSTEIN]

Exactly. Some people seem to live in an economic utopia where labor consists of people without social or economic responsibilites, able to change jobs at a moments notice without a trace of frictional unemployment.

Complaining about a job where you make at minimum double the national average in a land of 9% unemployment is pretty laughable. Most people are literally scraping by but poor mr. video game designer has to work on the weekend. That sounds like utopia to the vast majority.

 

[Woo-Fu]

If you let your managers hide their incompetence by quietly working yourself to death you're as much to blame as they are.

 

[Ledsen]

Complaining about a job where you make at minimum double the national average in a land of 9% unemployment is pretty laughable. Most people are literally scraping by but poor mr. video game designer has to work on the weekend. That sounds like utopia to the vast majority.

Oh, the "but think of the children in Africa!" defense. Great.

 

[stufte]

No, GameTrailers doesn't pay me a dime, nor does any other media outlet. I get paid by Wedbush to help investors make informed decisions about the 18 stocks I cover, including Netflix. Just finished my Netflix note, so I'm 15:45 into my day now.

If you disagree with my opinion, say so. Calling me an idiot is really childish. Calling people who have the same opinion as me (and different ones from yours) an idiot is foolish. You can't change our minds with invective, but perhaps you can with logic.

Welcome to the internet?

Also: I disagree with your opinion.

//into hour 12 of my day.

 

[gutter_trash]

You have to be insane to work in the game industry. I suspect they could get a lot more talent if they didn't have draconian working conditions. Instead of elite programmers going into the game industry, they stay in academia or work at places like Google or MS, or the defense industry, which have much better working conditions for more pay.

there are "good" studios where "good" working conditions exist.

people like Patcher don't want that to exist.. they love bad management and they love bad planning that creates the CRUNCH mentality

good studios with good conditions that have decent planning don't have to get into crunch mode as much as the worse offenders

 

[EternalGamer]

Complaining about a job where you make at minimum double the national average in a land of 9% unemployment is pretty laughable. Most people are literally scraping by but poor mr. video game designer has to work on the weekend. That sounds like utopia to the vast majority.

But this is a false choice argument. It doesn't have to be between "unemployed and starving" or "work 7 days a week 12 hours a day."

Do I wish the majority of people had better working conditions? Do I think there are many jobs where people have it worse off than videogame designers? Yes and yes. But I don't see what that has to do with whether or not we should view this situations as culturally acceptable just because there are other situitions that may be even more unacceptable.

 

[codecow]

I sympathize with the fact that you work long hours and therefore have some idea of what that's like, but I'm not sure how that is relevant to whether or not people should have to work these kinds of hours by force and it be viewed as culturally acceptable.

Um, lol... by force? I have been doing this for almost 15 years now and I can't think of a single time someone forced me to work. Even if is a condition of your employment that isn't being forced to work. Forced to work is someone pointing an AK-47 at your head and pulling the trigger if you stop before they tell you to.

There are some places in the world where I'm sure this happens but I doubt it's happening to devs.

 

[The Elite]

And I've lost all respect for Pachter.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Pachter's a financial analyst. It's literally his job. I think he qualifies as having an informed opinion.


That isn't to say I agree, but he's got an opinion, and he's entitled to it.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Pachter's a financial analyst. It's literally his job. I think he qualifies as having an informed opinion.


That isn't to say I agree, but he's got an opinion, and he's entitled to it.

How does being in finance make you qualified to speak on labor relations? They overlap at times but they're pretty separate fields.

 

[cj_iwakura]

How does being in finance make you qualified to speak on labor relations? They overlap at times but they're pretty separate fields.

More than people on the internet.

 

[Heysoos]

Throwing a tantrum because randoms on the internet call you an idiot is also childish, but you knew that already, so:

Yes, I disagree, and I hope your opinion doesn't come because you are in a more comfortable position than many, but I seriously doubt it. Having a Porsche at the door can do that I guess.

Really? He's throwing a tantrum?

Anyways, it's really sad to see that people can't disagree with each other without resorting to insults. A lot of the people throwing around insults didn't even bother to read everything properly, watch the video, or get the full context, they just quickly jump to conclusions and spout bullshit. (Not aiming this towards you inky.)

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

More than people on the internet.

Who couldn't possibly be equally tangentially connected in their outside lives?

 

[EternalGamer]

there are "good" studios where "good" working conditions exist.

people like Patcher don't want that to exist.. they love bad management and they love bad planning that creates the CRUNCH mentality

good studios with good conditions that have decent planning don't have to get into crunch mode as much as the worse offenders

Now that is just silly. Patcher may be a former lawyer and an investment banker who scoffs at the idea that code monkies deserve better treatment while puffing on cuban cigars he flew some dude in to roll for him, but even HE doesn't love bad management.

For financial people, management is like God in the moral, metaphysical, and epistemological sense. Intellectual labor is deified. You don't want God to suck at his job no matter who you are. Even atheists wish there was a god who was more competent.

 

[RSTEIN]

Oh, the "but think of the children in Africa!" defense. Great.

No, it's the welcome to the real world defense.

 

[EternalGamer]

Um, lol... by force? I have been doing this for almost 15 years now and I can't think of a single time someone forced me to work. Even if is a condition of your employment that isn't being forced to work. Forced to work is someone pointing an AK-47 at your head and pulling the trigger if you stop before they tell you to.

There are some places in the world where I'm sure this happens but I doubt it's happening to devs.

Yeah, if you didn't take my quote out of context, I went on to clarify that I mean "by force" in the sense that you face termination if you don't.

I would like to think that we can all agree that it shouldn't require that someone literally be physically forced to do something before we find room to object to the work conditions. I think most people in modern society could at least agree that there are things beyond literal slave labor that aren't acceptable.

 

[onken]

The problem is with everybody trying to make AAA, multi-million success stories, to cut overtime you'd either have to allow twice as long for the development cycle (not an option due to how fast the industry moves and graphics obsession) or take on a much bigger workforce (guaranteeing heavy staff cuts/closure if the game isn't a hit).

 

[Littlegator]

people like Patcher don't want that to exist.. they love bad management and they love bad planning that creates the CRUNCH mentality

Yeah, if you didn't take my quote out of context, I went on to clarify that I mean "by force" in the since that you face termination if you don't.

I would like to think that we can all agree that it shouldn't require that someone literally be physically forced to do something before we find room to object to the work conditions. I think most people in modern society could at least agree that there are things beyond literal slave labor that aren't acceptable.

Yes, but people quit jobs in the real world.

 

[EternalGamer]

How does being in finance make you qualified to speak on labor relations? They overlap at times but they're pretty separate fields.

Because capital the is the engine and labor is just the fuel that it burns. If you undertstand capital, you understand the engine of society.

Right Patcher?

 

[EternalGamer]

Yes, but people quit jobs in the real world.

You're right. They have a choice. It may be a shitty choice but it is a choice nonetheless.

But we also have a choice. We have a choice about whether or not we think the choice they are forced to make is fair. We have a choice of whether or not to voice our disagreement with the way they are treated. And we have a choice about whether or not we buy the products that are produced under these kinds of conditions. They have their choice but that doesn't change the fact that we have our choices as well.

 

[Littlegator]

People already make that choice.

Obviously, if it's too much for the American public to handle, this industry practice would have died. There are obviously a lot of people that value their jobs enough to work through the crunch.

 

[Thirteen]

Maybe he's just talking about doing something you're passionate about.

If you're going to sit there and complain about the 80 hour (or whatever) weeks you're doing, then you're not you should look for something else to do.

If you love what you're doing, you wouldn't care how many hours it is as long as you're satisfied with the work that comes out at the end of the day or launch.

 

[EternalGamer]

People already make that choice.

Obviously, if it's too much for the American public to handle, this industry practice would have died. There are obviously a lot of people that value their jobs enough to work through the crunch.

It hasn't been too much for the American public to handle up until this point. That much is clearly true. But the choice hasn't "already been made." It is constantly being made. Every time we decide to advocate the positions we do and every time we decide to buy the products we buy.

 

[DR2K]

More than people on the internet.

He's more qualified to be ignorant and sprout stupid crap out of his ass than internet people?

I'd really like to see what kind of jobs/lives some of you defending this have.

 

[rosjos44]

My golden rule in life when it comes to work is this:

I dont work for free.


Yes this line caused me some grief in the pass but I lived a better life because of it. I also got a better job because of it too. Know what you are worth people and also if you disagree with crunch times and poor management than speak up.

Plus no offense to Mr patcher or any analyst but I highly doubt your 15 hours is intensive when compared game design or other technical professions. Just saying that when you start talking about how many hours you put in a day also think how difficult your job is compared to others.

 

[Tellaerin]

They should
a) suck it up
b) if overtime is such a bad thing for them, be smart enough to find out whether their job will require it before accepting a job offer
c) get any promises from the company in writing
d) find another company or industry (NOT line of work/profession) that better suits their needs

b) c) and d) are all far more effective and realistic methods of making your own personal situation better. If you need someone else to negotiate contract terms for you because you're too inexperienced/timid/whatever, use a headhunter.

What I am saying regarding the crusading is that if you want to fight injustice beyond your personal realm, there are far better and more important ways to expend your effort. If you're just in it because it affects you, then see above.

No one owes you a comfy job that meets your standards in the profession, industry, and company you choose. It's up to you to find work that best meets your needs. If there's no perfect job, well, too bad.

I have a problem with how easily you accept the status quo as fixed and immutable. You apparently see absolutely nothing wrong with how games are produced now - practices like death marches are clearly A-OK in your eyes - and blithely dismiss any suggestions that this should change. No, it's all on the worker. If they don't like these practices, then they ought to just do something else. Nevermind the fact that there really isn't anything else they can do if they want to work on videogames as a career - and this is something that companies count on when recruiting new grist for the mill.

And I don't think anyone's arguing for 'a comfy job' where they're going to be pampered and paid to do nothing. The labor practices in game development now are downright exploitative, though, and arguing for more reasonable hours and working conditions is totally understandable. If you feel otherwise, you're entitled to your opinion, but in this case I'd have to say that your opinion's wrong.

 

[Kintaro]

Patcher is on point with his analysis. Each individual should make the right choice for himself/herself.

I'm surprised to say that I'm with Pach here too. I've been salary and worked 60-80 hours a week. I've been hourly and worked 40. I've been homeless before. I've tried to lobby for change at a job I really liked and quit when it went nowhere. It was all my choice. If you worked 100 hours a week, you chose to accept that. You chose not to try to change that. Some of those people at Bondi DID quit and good on them if that was their choice. Whining about it after the fact just makes you look worse. Life isn't fair and it won't always work in your favor. The only thing you can control are your choices.

 

[RSTEIN]

He's more qualified to be ignorant and sprout stupid crap out of his ass than internet people?

I'd really like to see what kind of jobs/lives some of you defending this have.

I would like to know what kind of jobs people have yet don't see Pachter's point.

I go to university.
I study computer science.
I want to make games.
I study the industry.
I read that I'm going to make X, work very long hours and weekends.
After this research I apply for a job.
A contract is signed detailing everything.
If I don't do a good job I will get fired.
If I don't like my job I'm free to quit anytime.


This is how it works...

 

[Radec]

And I've lost all respect for Pachter.

baffles me that you have some to begin with.

;|

 

[teepo]

i didn't know guns are pointed at the heads of employees.

 

[rosjos44]

I would like to know what kind of jobs people have yet don't see Pachter's point.

I go to university.
I study computer science.
I want to make games.
I study the industry.
I read that I'm going to make X, work very long hours and weekends.
After this research I apply for a job.
A contract is signed detailing everything.
If I don't do a good job I will get fired.
If I don't like my job I'm free to quit anytime.


This is how it works...

Then you should change how it works instead of dealing with it. This type of attitude shows that you are lowering your head to upper management.

I understand crunch times can happen and it is horrible. IF you are smart you would not do that type of work.

 

[Chiggs]

Exactly. Some people seem to live in an economic utopia where labor consists of people without social or economic responsibilites, able to change jobs at a moments notice without a trace of frictional unemployment.

I agree with you to some extent, but doesn't your statement also cast a rather poor light on the average spending and saving habits of people nowadays?

15%, people.

Living paycheck to paycheck is slavery!

 

[EternalGamer]

I would like to know what kind of jobs people have yet don't see Pachter's point.

I go to university.
I study computer science.
I want to make games.
I study the industry.
I read that I'm going to make X, work very long hours and weekends.
After this research I apply for a job.
A contract is signed detailing everything.
If I don't do a good job I will get fired.
If I don't like my job I'm free to quit anytime.


This is how it works...

The bolded is not some immutable law written by God. It is created by individuals and the choices they make. By mangement that enforces those policies. By media and consumers to accept them as "ok."

It really blows my mind how many people seem to think that the only one in the entire cycle of manufacturing that has any sense of real choice or responsibility is the laborer. Not management. Not media. Not consumers. Apparently the laborer is the only one who makes any choices that are relevant to the conversation.

 

[Littlegator]

Then you should change how it works instead of dealing with it. This type of attitude shows that you are lowering your head to upper management.

I understand crunch times can happen and it is horrible. IF you are smart you would not do that type of work.

In such an oversaturated industry, there is little room to raise your head.

 

[Kintaro]

i didn't know guns are pointed at the heads of employees.

Its a gun called fear.

 

[ghst]

this thread goes some way to explaining the mind blowing american division of wealth stats that turn up OT side.

you guys wear worker abuse like war scars. it's like you're proud of how many different ways you can take it.