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[Opiate]

I am consistently frustrated by people who try to justify their preference for controllers in absurdly obtuse ways.

For example, those people saying that they prefer controllers because they move more slowly, because this more closely resembles reality (guns have weight etc.) and thus is more immersive. I'd like to take the time to point out that most of the things you do in video games are not only challenging in real life, but often times impossible: using this logic above, you could literally justify the worst, most obtuse controller ever made (just imagine it as you'd like: one analog stick and two buttons? Just one button, nothing else? A microphone you blow air in to that responds based on pressure?) because it more closely imitates the challenge one would need to face to blow up 100,000 alien horde.

The actual, most likely explanation as to why many people prefer pads is: they grew up with them, they're used to them, they're comfortable with them, and they don't want to learn something new or change. And that's completely fine. That is a totally justifiable reason to stick with something: it's supposed to be entertainment, so just stick with what you have fun with.

I believe the reason people go to such great lengths to avoid this explanation is that it makes them sound like old fuddy duddies. It's not a glamorous explanation, but it is a reasonable and well understood explanation: perhaps now you know why your Dad still prefers Vinyl despite the patently inferior sound quality, or refuses to learn to use computers efficiently, or whatever your Dad's specific stuborness happens to be. We all get comfortable with stuff and don't wan to change: there is no shame in that, unless you feel the entire human race should be shamed.

I wish people would simply say that rather than concoct elaborate, nonsensical explanations to avoid looking stubborn or old fashioned.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

I am consistently frustrated by people who try to justify their preference for controllers in absurdly obtuse ways.

For example, those people saying that they prefer controllers because they move more slowly, because this more closely resembles reality (guns have weight etc.) and thus is more immersive. I'd like to take the time to point out that most of the things you do in video games are not only challenging in real life, but often times impossible: using this logic above, you could literally justify the worst, most obtuse controller ever made (just imagine it as you'd like: one analog stick and two buttons? Just one button, nothing else? A microphone you blow air in to that responds based on pressure?) because it more closely imitates the challenge one would need to face to blow up 100,000 alien horde.

The actual, most likely explanation as to why many people prefer pads is: they grew up with them, they're used to them, they're comfortable with them, and they don't want to learn something new or change. And that's completely fine. That is a totally justifiable reason to stick with something: it's supposed to be entertainment, so just stick with what you have fun with.

I believe the reason people go to such great lengths to avoid this explanation is that it makes them sound like old fuddy duddies. It's not a glamorous explanation, but it is a reasonable and well understood explanation: perhaps now you know why your Dad still prefers Vinyl despite the patently inferior sound quality, or refuses to learn to use computers efficiently, or whatever your Dad's specific stuborness happens to be. We all get comfortable with stuff and don't wan to change: there is no shame in that, unless you feel the entire human race should be shamed.

I wish people would simply say that rather than concoct elaborate, nonsensical explanations to avoid looking stubborn or old fashioned.

Inferior sound quality? Vinyl?

 

[BobsRevenge]

Inferior sound quality? Vinyl?

If its made from the same master, its true.

 

[Opiate]

Inferior sound quality? Vinyl?

If it's made from the same master, then absolutely.

But this is hardly my point: surely you can see that. If that's the most pointed objection you can make to my post, then I will consider my argument a smashing success.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I like using a gamepad better. More enjoyable for me. I'm aware this means I risk murder in the digital realm, but as I don't play multiplayer in shooters, it's a risk I'm willing to take.

 

[Sent]

I like using a gamepad better. More enjoyable for me. I'm aware this means I risk murder in the digital realm, but as I don't play multiplayer in shooters, it's a risk I'm willing to take.

I use my 360 controller for everything but FPS/RTS, why would I use a keyboard for something it sucks with. When F1 2010 comes out god help anyone who decides to play that with a Keyboard and Mouse :lol

 

[Opiate]

I use my 360 controller for everything but FPS/RTS, why would I use a keyboard for something it sucks with. When F1 2010 comes out god help anyone who decides to play that with a Keyboard and Mouse :lol

I just use whatever seems to be the most effective. For FPS/RTS, I agree, that seems to be the mouse. For action games, (a la Ninja Gaiden), I definitely prefer a Game Pad. I think Horii sticks are ideal for Fighters. I believe that is also true for SHMUPS. I believe Racers control best with a racing wheel.

And so forth. I am a very competitive player, so I tend to stick with FPS/RTS/TPS/Fighters, so almost all of my games are played on KBM/KBM/KBM/Arcade stick, respectively.

I also play Chess, Speed Chess, and Go, which in my experience are best controlled with the hand manually, but can also be controlled effectively with the mouse.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I use my 360 controller for everything but FPS/RTS, why would I use a keyboard for something it sucks with. When F1 2010 comes out god help anyone who decides to play that with a Keyboard and Mouse :lol

No, I mean I like playing shooters with a gamepad. It's a personal preference thing, for sure. I'm under no illusions it's the best way to play, it's just what I like best.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

I just use whatever seems to be the most effective. For FPS/RTS, I agree, that seems to be the mouse. For action games, (a la Ninja Gaiden), I definitely prefer a Game Pad. I think Horii sticks are ideal for Fighters. I believe that is also true for SHMUPS. I believe Racers control best with a racing wheel.

And so forth. I am a very competitive player, so I tend to stick with FPS/RTS/TPS/Fighters, so almost all of my games are played on KBM/KBM/KBM/Arcade, respectively.

But that's just your preference. When it comes to competitiveness, it really doesn't matter which input scheme one uses, as long as it is more or less equal to what the opponent uses.

 

[Alex Connolly]

I know both the keyboard and gamepad offer me adequate buttonage to trigger a respawn after endless deaths. Man, to have the time and marital/parental situation to flop around and hone those skills.

Anyway, it's always a fiery discussion. At the end of the day though, if it isn't serious enough to put on one's resume, it's not really that important. :lol

 

[Opiate]

But that's just your preference. When it comes to competitiveness, it really doesn't matter which input scheme one uses, as long as it is more or less equal to what the opponent uses.

Of course. You could also play volleyball where everyone has one hand tied behind their back.

You are correct that this technically is fair and equal, but most competitive people (including myself) would far prefer to have everyone use the best tools available rather than everyone deliberately handicap themselves.

Again, that's not an absolute rule, but if we're going to get this picky, then there is no such thing as an absolute rule. For example, some people might prefer things to not be equal or fair. They may strongly prefer ridiculously imbalanced rulesets or teams or what have you.

But in competitive play, we generally operate under the assumptions that (most) people want a fair, equitable game, and that (most) people don't want to be handicapped and/or be forced to work with inferior toolsets.

 

[Alex Connolly]

Of course. You could also play volleyball where everyone has one hand tied behind their back.

You are correct that this technically is fair and equal, but most competitive people (including myself) would far prefer to have everyone use the best tools available rather than everyone deliberately handicap themselves. Again, not an absolute rule.

But wouldn't that only be the case if it were a multiplatform game, such as a Bad Company or CoD? Otherwise, what are you comparing a title's capacity to? I get the argument, I do. I know the question of fidelity and accuracy. But is it a handicap in and of itself? It just sounds like rally drivers and F1 racers crapping on each other. Sure, they both drive cars, but it's a needless comparison.

 

[Zeliard]

Best part about this thread has to be all the crying about "elitism." It's so easy to tell when people have run out of arguments in PC threads, because they always devolve to this sort of thing. Why face the argument when you can dismiss it as elitism?

Opiate, how does it feel sitting on top of that ivory white tower?

 

[Opiate]

It would also be true in any other game that is clearly handicapped by the input method. We don't know for sure that a man with three arms would be better at Volleyball, because we have not empirically tested it, but it stands to reason that he very much would be (all other things equal). If all other things are equal, I'm sure nearly all professional volleyball players would absolutely love to have an extra arm.

There are some FPS that carefully craft themselves in such a manner as to minimize the need for rapid movement and accurate aim, and those might be just as good on a Gamepad. I don't really know. You're right that the comparison can't be made in all cases, but if we can test it in 90 out of 100 cases, and 89 of those 90 tests all point to the same conclusion, it's reasonable to assume that most or all of the last 10 are likely to follow the same path.

 

[Sent]

But in competitive play, we generally operate under the assumptions that (most) people want a fair, equitable game, and that (most) people don't want to be handicapped and/or be forced to work with inferior toolsets.

I used to have a wheel for CMR2/GT2 then I sold it

I don't know if I'll get one for F1 2010, I doubt it. The thing is I know and admit that a wheel is much better for driving games than a controller (duh). A lot of people won't admit or truly believe a controller is as good as or better than a KB/M when playing an FPS. The only part I can't get over is that last bit. :lol I don't care if you enjoy using a controller, but then on top of to say that it is a better control scheme is silly. Then people turn around and call me an elitist...when to me it's just a simple fact.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

ah shit. I also prefer a controller to a wheel for driving games and a controller to a stick for fighting games. i am definitely out of opiate's will.

 

[Opiate]

ah shit. I also prefer a controller to a wheel for driving games and a controller to a stick for fighting games. i am definitely out of opiate's will.

Not in the slightest, Segata. You're expressing your opinions in a clear and concise way.

If you think you're pissing me off, you're not getting my point. I am not against everyone who prefers a game pad: if you happen to prefer it because that's what you're used to and what you like, that's completely fine. I actually very much appreciate your posts.

I am against those who prefer a game pad, but don't like to admit it's because they're simply used to it, as (again) that makes them sound old and stubborn. So they concoct elaborate explanations for why game pads really are better. Just admit it's because you're comfortable with them and (in your case) that you aren't particularly competitive about it, and move on. I absolutely respect your clearly stated, rationally explained personal preferences.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

I used to have a wheel for CMR2/GT2 then I sold it

I don't know if I'll get one for F1 2010, I doubt it. The thing is I know and admit that a wheel is much better for driving games than a controller (duh). A lot of people won't admit or truly believe a controller is as good as or better than a KB/M when playing an FPS. The only part I can't get over is that last bit. :lol I don't care if you enjoy using a controller, but then on top of that say that it is a better control scheme is silly. Then people turn around and call me an elitist...when to me it's just a simple fact.

We wheel isn't necessarily better as it all depends on the way non-wheel users are catered for. I could even argue that a gamepad is superior because driving aids can make people using a controller or even kb drive faster laptimes that wheel users. There even was a period that keyboard drivers outdrove wheel users in the Live for Speed leaderboards. They had to patch the game to equalize the playing field.

When it comes to getting a real driving experience, the wheel is superior though.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Not in the slightest, Segata. You're expressing your opinions in a clear and concise way.

If you think you're pissing me off, you're not getting my point. I am not against everyone who prefers a game pad: if you happen to prefer it because that's what you're used to and what you like, that's completely fine. I actually very much appreciate your posts.

I am against those who prefer a game pad, but don't like to admit it's because they're simply used to it, as (again) that makes them sound old and stubborn. So they concoct elaborate explanations for why game pads really are better. Just admit it's because you're comfortable with them and (in your case) that you aren't particularly competitive about it, and move on. I absolutely respect your clearly stated, rationally explained personal preferences.

If you think I'm trying to piss you off, you've clearly never seen me work a room.

 

[Opiate]

We wheel isn't necessarily better as it all depends on the way non-wheel users are catered for. I could even argue that a gamepad is superior because driving aids can make people using a controller or even kb drive faster laptimes that wheel users. There even was a period that keyboard drivers outdrove wheel users in the Live for Speed leaderboards. They had to patch the game to equalize the playing field.

When it comes to getting a real driving experience, the wheel is superior though.

Is this the case? I had no idea. I'm sorry, I don't play many racing games, and was only using it as (one of many) examples. That's interesting.

 

[iam220]

while nothing beats the accuracy of the mouse, is accuracy really the key element when deciding what the best shooter controls are? For me, no.

Yes, absolutely. The best controls for any given genre are those that give you, the player, the most CONTROL over the character you're playing. In shooters, you have better control of your character with a keyboard and mouse then you do with a game pad (accuracy obviously playing a HUGE role in this genre). Therefore, by definition, KB/M are the best shooter controls.

 

[Jokeropia]

I grew up with consoles and have never played a PC FPS in my life, however I recognize the fact that mouse and keyboard are undeniably superior. Heck, since getting used to IR Pointer aiming I have a hard time going back to analog sticks due to how horribly archaic it feels.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Is this the case? I had no idea. I'm sorry, I don't play many racing games, and was only using it as (one of many) examples. That's interesting.

I wasn't really trying to undermine the kb/m vs gamepad argument.


I just think that the kb/m vs gamepad isn't analogous to wheel vs gamepad. To be fair, gamepad users have to have loads of aids to actually beat wheel users in sims (in forza 3 you can't cross the grip threshold of the front tires when steering with a pad). But in more arcade style racing games the pad can be considered better. It's much easier to go to opposite lock with a pad than a 900 degree turning wheel and if accuracy isn't that important, reaction times with a gamepad can be much better than with a wheel. I can't even begin to fathom being competitive in Burnout Paradise with a wheel.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

We wheel isn't necessarily better as it all depends on the way non-wheel users are catered for. I could even argue that a gamepad is superior because driving aids can make people using a controller or even kb drive faster laptimes that wheel users. There even was a period that keyboard drivers outdrove wheel users in the Live for Speed leaderboards. They had to patch the game to equalize the playing field.

When it comes to getting a real driving experience, the wheel is superior though.

Depends on the game though. A hardcore PC driving sim that supports high-end rig setups with force-feedback wheels and force-feedback pedals, where you can feel the difference between cold and warm tires or the slight bumps on the road and can translate all that information to better adjust your driving line - the people with the proper setup is going to do a lot better.

 

[ghst]

If you think you're pissing me off, you're not getting my point. I am not against everyone who prefers a game pad: if you happen to prefer it because that's what you're used to and what you like, that's completely fine. I actually very much appreciate your posts.

it's not fine, it's a regressive blight on the development of fps, like starting with a dirty paintbrush. i don't want fps to be designed around thumbsticks any more than i want fighting games designed around waggle - and i'll be damned if i'm democratic about other people's backward tastes.

 

[Twig]

Probably the single most pointless anecdote I've ever read on GAF.

Nah, it was a great story, and you're just bitter because you didn't think to tell yours first. ):

Sucks for you, bro.

 

[BobsRevenge]

it's not fine, it's a regressive blight on the development of fps, like starting with a dirty paintbrush. i don't want fps to be designed around thumbsticks any more than i want fighting games designed around waggle - and i'll be damned if i'm democratic about other people's backward tastes.

When shit like Duke Nukem Forever having a two weapon system happen I get bitter too. :lol

Also, the death of leaning. Truly tragic.

 

[Twig]

it's not fine, it's a regressive blight on the development of fps, like starting with a dirty paintbrush. i don't want fps to be designed around thumbsticks any more than i want fighting games designed around waggle - and i'll be damned if i'm democratic about other people's backward tastes.

This is absolutely a valid concern for PC gamers.

It sucks ass, and it sucks it hard.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

it's not fine, it's a regressive blight on the development of fps, like starting with a dirty paintbrush. i don't want fps to be designed around thumbsticks any more than i want fighting games designed around waggle - and i'll be damned if i'm democratic about other people's backward tastes.

Oh no, ghst of the internet isn't happy with how I choose to have fun! Care to tell me the hand position I should be using when I jerk off, too?

 

[BobsRevenge]

This is absolutely a valid concern for PC gamers.

It sucks ass, and it sucks it hard.

Rainbow 6, Far Cry, Battlefield, Ghost Recon, Operation Flashpoint, Deus Ex, Thief, The Elder Scrolls, Fallout,

 

[Twig]

Rainbow 6, Far Cry, Battlefield, Ghost Recon, Operation Flashpoint, Deus Ex, Thief, The Elder Scrolls, Fallout,

Far Cry 2 is shamazin'.

But yes, I get you.

 

[f0rk]

Oh no, ghst of the internet isn't happy with how I choose to have fun! Care to tell me the hand position I should be using when I jerk off, too?

No, his point is games are lacking features because of how the majority choose to have fun.

 

[Haly]

Is that why Deadly Shadows controls so weird?

 

[BobsRevenge]

Far Cry 2 is shamazin'.

But yes, I get you.

I love Far Cry 2 (and Fallout 3), but I think it (they) would've been so much better PC exclusive.

 

[Hostile Paradox]

Yep, I started out with an Atari back in the 80's. M+KB seem very foreign to me. I started getting into PC games with TF2. I know Mouse gives you a faster spin time, so i thought I'd give it a try. But I was displeased with how my mouse kept falling off my mouse pad, so I just plugged in my wired X360 controller. I like having all the controls in my hands. Gave it a fair shot, but I just love my controller too much.

 

[ghst]

Oh no, ghst of the internet isn't happy with how I choose to have fun! Care to tell me the hand position I should be using when I jerk off, too?

dad?

 

[Twig]

I love Far Cry 2 (and Fallout 3), but I think it (they) would've been so much better PC exclusive.

Aha! I suspected as much but wasn't sure. Yes, it is true.

And amusingly enough more PC players probably like Far Cry 2 than console players.

Also add to that list: Bioshock.

 

[Haly]

But I was displeased with how my mouse kept falling off my mouse pad

I realize it must've been years since I last used a mousepad.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

No, his point is games are lacking features because of how the majority choose to have fun.

Tell me why I should give a fuck? This is my entertainment time. I'm not even playing online with anyone. How is how I choose how to have my fun not fine?

I understand competitive gamers want the best and most efficient control style. I understand you guys want the companies to acknowledge that and provide you with options. But that doesn't give anyone the fucking right to tell me that what I'm doing in my fucking leisure time isn't alright.

 

[ghst]

Tell me why I should give a fuck? This is my entertainment time. I'm not even playing online with anyone. How is how I choose how to have my fun not fine?

i hope in the glorious future where games reward players for their dexterity and mastery of 360 degree free movement, there's atleast one dev still making molasses paced, blinkered, auto-aim drenched fps just for you.

because your fun means that much to me.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Tell me why I should give a fuck? This is my entertainment time. I'm not even playing online with anyone. How is how I choose how to have my fun not fine?

I understand competitive gamers want the best and most efficient control style. I understand you guys want the companies to acknowledge that and provide you with options. But that doesn't give anyone the fucking right to tell me that what I'm doing in my fucking leisure time isn't alright.

If developers made the PC versions of their shooters play how PC gamers prefer, it wouldn't be an issue. But since everything's a port (whether the console versions are ported from PC or vice-versa) and noone wants to do separate designs to cater to both sides because devs don't want to spend extra money, it's not going to happen.

 

[f0rk]

Tell me why I should give a fuck? This is my entertainment time. I'm not even playing online with anyone. How is how I choose how to have my fun not fine?

I understand competitive gamers want the best and most efficient control style. I understand you guys want the companies to acknowledge that and provide you with options. But that doesn't give anyone the fucking right to tell me that what I'm doing in my fucking leisure time isn't alright.

That's not what I'm saying. It's fine you enjoy playing on a pad.
But some games are worse because of the limitations of the pad. Halo (and all the shooters since) didn't invent 2 gun limitations to improve gameplay (directly), they did it because it's hard to cycle between so many guns with a hard limit of buttons. And now Duke fucking Nukem (of all games) has a 2 gun cap because of the pads shortfalls. This is making games worse.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

i hope in the glorious future where games reward players for their dexterity and mastery of 360 degree free movement, there's atleast one dev. still making molasses paced, blinkered, auto-aim drenched fps just for you.

because your fun means that much to me.

Whatever.

 

[BobsRevenge]

If developers made the PC versions of their shooters play how PC gamers prefer, it wouldn't be an issue. But since everything's a port (whether the console versions are ported from PC or vice-versa) and noone wants to do separate designs to cater to both sides because devs don't want to spend extra money, it's not going to happen.

Not quite true, but close. I mean, GRAW had completely different PC versions that were pretty decent. Most RPGs alter their GUI. The GTA games have mouse aiming instead of auto aiming. But its kind of rare.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Not quite true, but close. I mean, GRAW had completely different PC versions that were pretty decent. Most RPGs alter their GUI. The GTA games have mouse aiming instead of auto aiming. But its kind of rare.

I wasn't saying it was absolute. And yes, it is a rare thing. So we're in agreement.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

I'd much rather play a game with a controller, it's just more comfortable and allows for my fingers and wrists to last a bit longer. When you are using a keyboard and mouse for 8 hours 5 days per week it's nice to just lay back and press buttons on a controller. I think it just depends on the game you are playing really. If you are playing an FPS online against other people that are experienced with the mouse and keyboard then you will be at a disadvantage. If everyone else you are playing against is using a controller then there is no handicap anywhere and it's perfectly acceptable. I know for an MMO I'd rather have a controller since I'll be playing for hours on end and I don't need high accuracy.

 

[Twig]

If developers made the PC versions of their shooters play how PC gamers prefer, it wouldn't be an issue. But since everything's a port (whether the console versions are ported from PC or vice-versa) and noone wants to do separate designs to cater to both sides because devs don't want to spend extra money, it's not going to happen.

It's not JUST a matter of controls (though of course this is huge). There is also an inherently DIFFERENT kind of game design as a whole that results when a game is developed console-first.

 

[Kai Dracon]

it's not fine, it's a regressive blight on the development of fps, like starting with a dirty paintbrush. i don't want fps to be designed around thumbsticks any more than i want fighting games designed around waggle - and i'll be damned if i'm democratic about other people's backward tastes.

Here we have encapsulated the myopic conceit of the hardcore fan. To such people, the only thing I can say is: get used to anger, disappointment, and a conviction of being personally betrayed by the world.

 

[Twig]

Here we have encapsulated the myopic conceit of the hardcore fan. To such people, the only thing I can say is: get used to anger, disappointment, and a conviction of being personally betrayed by the world.

You're just bitter because he's right. :3

 

[luka]

Not quite true, but close. I mean, GRAW had completely different PC versions that were pretty decent. Most RPGs alter their GUI. The GTA games have mouse aiming instead of auto aiming. But its kind of rare.

GRAW PC was pretty bad. :\

I give them props for trying though.