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US Ally Bahrain murdering peaceful protesters

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Not enough people are watching these youtube videos, I can't believe the highest viewed one only have 100k views or so.

We need to get these videos twittered/reddited/whatever it is today's youngsters use to spread stuff.
 
Purkake4 said:
Democracy isn't a magical cure that will make every country stable and peaceful. See: Iraq.

Uh that was the U.S.'s fault for delaying elections and letting the tribal aspects of Iraq fester without leadership.
 
Shanadeus said:
Not enough people are watching these youtube videos, I can't believe the highest viewed one only have 100k views or so.

We need to get these videos twittered/reddited/whatever it is today's youngsters use to spread stuff.
Sadly, most of the click throughs would be because of a link promising gory imagery and then you'll see comments of "dude that guy haz no brain lol" and such.
 
Can you take your Khalifa discussion to another thread please? I know you might be confused since Bahrain is ruled by Al Khalifa but they're not the same. The same crap popped up in the previous revolution thread(s).

I was not at all confused by the two. I am no member of Hizb ut-Tahrir. This wasn't some 'bring back the Khilafa thing' rather I made a statement referring to the previous stability of the region under Ottoman rule, which is a different thing.

That said, I don't want to contribute to the derailing of this thread any further.

Nor do I, I feel my opinion is clear and so is yours. I don't think there will be any convergence there so let us leave it at that :)
 
With the attacks on Libya expect even less attention to be paid to this now, if there's a lot of booms and bangs anyway.
 
Ether_Snake, yep. The media coverage situation looks similar to the events one month ago.

Edit:

Duraz, Bahrain. A couple of hours ago.

188977_10150160606233072_203200448071_8130184_5002784_n.jpg


Karzakan, Bahrain. protest started an hour ago.

scaled.php
 
quadriplegicjon said:
I really don't get why this is being ignored by... pretty much everyone... :(
I mentioned it in another thread but Libya took a lot of attention away from Bahrain and then with the disaster in Japan the media pretty much moved away from Bahrain entirely.

As Ether_Snake said, now there's booms and bangs to focus on too.
 
Yep, things are getting pretty hot in Yemen too right now. Special Forces in civilian clothing are shooting at protesters with many dead and injured according to a phone call from a doctor to BBC Arabic.

With Gaddafi deciding to stop military activities (supposedly) the media might get a chance to cover Bahrain and Yemen more closely. That is if their governments allow the media to have access which is unlikely.
 
I am an old school conservative. More in line with Edmund Burke than any other person in the Western tradition that I can think of. Also in Islamic terms I am really really against insurrection.

I have to say that all this has really got me questioning the whole thing. I don't know if I can define myself as conservative on these issues. Though in a few cases I remain so I think.
 
Zapages said:
Only the Wahabis/Salafi are really anti Shia. Most Muslims that I know including myself don't view Shia as anything other than Muslims who are not too different then Sunni Muslims.

Basically I am saying Wahabis/Salafis are just fear mongering.
bro you have alot to learn. There are huge differences between Muslims and shias
 
samven582 said:
bro you have alot to learn. There are huge differences between Muslims and shias

I do know about the differences. But saying they are non-believers or that they should be killed.

There are lot less differences between Shia Islam and Sunni Islam. In contrast to when comparing Sunni Islam vs. Christianity or Judaism.
 
Rad Agast said:
Yep, things are getting pretty hot in Yemen too right now. Special Forces in civilian clothing are shooting at protesters with many dead and injured according to a phone call from a doctor to BBC Arabic.

Apparently over 30 protestors were killed by the shooting :(
 
http://www.alraimedia.com/Alrai/Article.aspx?id=263375&date=18032011
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/03/17/141969.html

^would be hilarious for anybody in arab-gaf to translate.

Anybody know if it's just anti-iranian saudi propaganda or real?

OttomanScribe said:
I think Nationalism more than Wahabism, the Ottomans new how to deal with the Wahhabis... heads on pikes outside Istanbul.

The Uthmani Khilafa was lost as soon as the Young Turk movement began. The Armenian genocide, the emphasis on Turks over everyone else,t he idea that 'progress' was inseparable from 'Westernness' and all that came with that spelled the doom of the region.

There is still hope for Turkey though :)

As to secularism, Islam doesn't need it.

Secularism is a means for governing different religious minorities in the same cultural context. It was an idea aimed for managing Europe's religious differences. The Muslim world has never had anything like the kind of sectarian conflict (despite appearances) as Europe. The Islamic system manages differences through autonomy, 'to you your religion, and to me mine'. 40% of the Ottoman armies were Christian. The Jews and the Christians lived in separate communities, in many ways self-governed. In this context, secularism is not needed to stop Muslims dictating to Christians their religious conduct, because they wouldn't do so anyway. At least in theory.

It's frighting reading posts like this. It's like a Nazi or Communist talking about how awesome it was back then. The idea that I could be living under it right now should history have went another way sends chills down my spine. Never mind how much worse the world would be. Thanks, but you can take your uthmani khilafa and shove it.
Darackutny said:
Peaceful protestors run over security force guy several times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx2oW0XNb00

Cars run over body. That's the only thing you could get from that video.

And even if it was protesters running over security force guy, they have the right to and should do more of it.
 
BBC Arabic, Lulu Roundabout/square (the spot where protesters used to gather in Manama) have been demolished by the Bahraini government.

I'll try to see if I can find BahrainTV footage since they supposedly showed it on that channel. If true, it's a shame. That roundabout was always the first thing I thought of whenever some one mentioned Bahrain.
 
Chrono said:
Cars run over body. That's the only thing you could get from that video.

And even if it was protesters running over security force guy, they have the right to and should do more of it.

Fuck no. No one has the right to do the type of shit shown on that video.

Checking the source of that video and our lovely GAFer who posted it, it's most definitely government propaganda. The same shit they pulled yesterday when they claimed that a young dead civilian was a member of the police force killed by the government (I posted his ID Card earlier).

Hell, the spokesman of the King of Bahrain said on BBC Arabic that the forces in Bahrain are from "Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Oman and Kuwait" even though Kuwait, Oman and Qatar didn't send any troops there (Kuwait had some units heading to Bahrain but the Prince ordered them back even though he was in Morocco at the time).
 
Rad Agast said:
Checking the source of that video and our lovely GAFer who posted it, it's most definitely government propaganda. The same shit they pulled yesterday when they claimed that a young dead civilian was a member of the police force killed by the government (I posted his ID Card earlier).

You need to stop believing that the world is black and white.

There are people in the security forces with a conscience that wouldn't go crazy killing people, which is why the death rates are relatively low. On the other hand, there are protesters that would gladly kill anyone in a uniform.
 
Darackutny said:
You need to stop believing that the world is black and white.

Life is never that simple. I don't know when I ever gave that impression.


There are people in the security forces with a conscience that wouldn't go crazy killing people, which is why the death rates are relatively low. On the other hand, there are protesters that would gladly kill anyone in a uniform.

Remind me again, what's the death and injury count on both sides? I've been talking to Bahraini doctors who work at Salmaniya and other smaller health centers around Bahrain for a good while now. I trust them more than I trust the Bahraini government.

Edit:

Found a picture from Lulu Roundabout after the demolition:
qxwkm.jpg


Why the hell do they keep covering their faces? Are they ashamed or some thing? I've noticed this in many videos now.
 
Rad Agast said:
Life is never that simple. I don't know when I ever gave that impression.

Well, everything being "government propaganda" usually leads one to that conclusion.

Remind me again, what's the death and injury count on both sides?

Not a clue about injuries. I believe deaths on the protesters side is around fifteen. Security forces have like five dead. Something like that I believe. I don't believe Al-Wasat has reported anything different, and you know that they are anti-govt.
 
New post for new News,

CBS News: Bahrain clashes: 'Riot police showed no mercy'

MANAMA - At 2pm local time Thursday - before curfew - CBS Radio News reporter Toula Vlahou was covering clashes between protesters and riot police outside Manama, Bahrain.


Riot police were firing tear gas and advancing toward the protesters. Vlahou and her BBC driver, a local Bahraini who was taking pictures - decided to leave the area. The riot police confronted them while they were in the car. The driver backed up and the riot police opened fire on the car.


"We were attacked by a wall of riot police," Vlahou said. "We thought they were going to fire tear gas at us. But they fired pellets at us."

"I had to fall to the ground in the driver's seat as the driver was driving to get out of there," Vlahou added.


The riot police began chasing them and continued shooting at the car. A helicopter was hovering above them for the entire time.

Outside right now there are loud chants going on. People, are defying the law - and at the same time telling the riot police they're not afraid," Vlahou said.


"But I have to tell you, they should be afraid. The riot police showed no mercy, they did not stop to ask us who we were. The just saw a camera and they started firing."

The police were searching the streets for the car and the people became anxious about hiding them. The riot police found the car and waited outside the house.


The riot police destroyed the car: slashed the tires, rammed it, smashed windows and took all identification and equipment in the car. Vlahou contacted the American Embassy and CBS. After several calls, American Embassy contacted the Bahraini security police, and the commander of the riot police and explained the situation and asked them to call off the police. After about 20 minutes the police left the house.


A colleague from the AP took a taxi to the house and picked them up. Vlahou is currently safely back at her hotel.

Great "security" forces.
 
samven582 said:
bro you have alot to learn. There are huge differences between Muslims and shias

And even if there are who cares? Does that give Sunnis the right to kill Shias?

I used to be so addicted to the whole Sunni-Shia debate and trying to find out who is right or wrong. It doesn't matter. Its 1000s of years of debate, differences, arguments, and violence. For what? Shia won't convince Sunnis they are right. Sunnis won't convince Shias they are right. So whether you view Shias as other, misguided, or even flat out non Muslims, it gives no one the right to outright call for their murder.

And seemingly in Bahrain the religious fanatics are using this as an excuse to kill Shias just cause. Its despicable and shameful.

And for those wondering I am Sunni not that it matters or should matter.
 
Darackutny said:
Well, everything being "government propaganda" usually leads one to that conclusion.



Not a clue about injuries. I believe deaths on the protesters side is around fifteen. Security forces have like five dead. Something like that I believe. I don't believe Al-Wasat has reported anything different, and you know that they are anti-govt.

I'm very glad you mentioned Al Wasat news paper.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/bahrain-protests-newspaper-idUSLDE72E13P20110315
 
bro you have alot to learn. There are huge differences between Muslims and shias

They both say 'La ilaha ill-Allah, Mohammadun Rasulullah' and the status of a Muslim is great in the eyes of God either way. There is no benefit in takfir or fitna when it is not needed. I can get along fine with people of the Shia't Ali, as long as we steer clear of certain subjects. The differences don't mean that there should be enmity or conflict. I think at worst if I view them as people of Bid'a I will just avoid getting into too deep a discussion with a fanatic of them, just as they would a fanatic Sunni, either way there is no profit in losing ones adhab.

As the brother has said, the consensus amongst the Ulema of the Ahlul Sunnah is that they are misguided, and still Muslims. That is sufficient for me.

It's frighting reading posts like this. It's like a Nazi or Communist talking about how awesome it was back then. The idea that I could be living under it right now should history have went another way sends chills down my spine. Never mind how much worse the world would be. Thanks, but you can take your uthmani khilafa and shove it.

The sentiments I expressed are not only my own. I know quite a few non-Muslim Middle Eastern analysts and academics who share the same view. I am going to assume you speak in ignorance, for otherwise you would not compare me to a Nazi, or act as though the region was better when it was politically united and generally free of the violence and exploitation that has plagued it since the Treaty of Versailles.

You might think the region is better off being stripped of its resources by foreign powers, being rife with civil conflict, invaded and ruled over by puppet dictators. I however do not.

What do you mean living under it right now?

We are not talking about some sort of false nostalgia that paints the region or the Khilafa itself as perfection. We are talking about the very real reality that was the peace that went along with the Empire. The Pax Islamica or whatever you want to call it. The Middle East was stable and coherent, sectarian violence was far less and tribalism on the whole was lessened. Extremes like the Wahhabist movement were dealt with appropriately.
 
MrHicks said:
its kinda interesting how few branches islam has
sunni/shia/suffi?

that about it?

christianity has a billion lol
Weird ain't it. Now I need OttomanScribe to tell me what 'Sulafi' and 'Wahabbi' mean. Are they branches within branches?
 
SmokyDave said:
Weird ain't it. Now I need OttomanScribe to tell me what 'Sulafi' and 'Wahabbi' mean. Are they branches within branches?

From what I get Sulafi is a more moderate version of Wahabisim which itself is an extreme version of Sunni.
 
SmokyDave said:
Weird ain't it. Now I need OttomanScribe to tell me what 'Sulafi' and 'Wahabbi' mean. Are they branches within branches?

Salafism is a school of thought that is also known as the Athari school. They hold to the ideology of the first three generations of Islam. Salafism, Ash'arism, and Maturidism all fall under Sunnism. The differences between each of these sects mainly revolve around their views regarding the attributes of Allah.

What people are more familiar with are the "four sects" of Sunnism, which differ when it comes to jurisprudence. So, it is possible to have a Salafi Hanafi, or an Ash'ari Hanbali, etc.


Wahabism is just a name given to Salafis by non-Salafis in order to give the impression that Salafism has only existed for two centuries. Mohammed bin Abdul Wahab, a Salafi reformer, started his "revolution" back then.
 
its kinda interesting how few branches islam has
sunni/shia/suffi?

Sufism isn't a branch per se. Sufism generally is a translation of the word Tasawuf, which is simply another Islamic discipline, primarily concerned with 'worshipping Allah as though you see Him'. However that said, there are 'sects' that call themselves 'Sufis' that are well outside of traditionalist Islamic orthodoxy.

I would say that traditionally there have been three branches within the Ummah (Islamic community), the Majority, the Minority and the Schizmatics.

The majority are the vast hordes of believers, all of whom we would consider Sunni.

The second group are various different versions of Shi'ism. The Shia't Ali (partisans of Ali) grew up around political differences in how power should be allocated. The Sunnah said that authority should be based upon legitimacy and merit, chosen by the consensus of the community. The Shia't Ali said that it should be chosen based upon blood, specifically 'Ahlul'Bayt' (the family of the Messenger of God, sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam). To cut a long fitna short, the Shia lost out and became the minority, without any real differences from the Sunnis for most of the time. In general when a group wished to rebel against Khilafal (the leaders of the Muslims) authority, they would take up the banner of Shi'ism as an excuse. The religious differences did not echo the political differences until much later, especially with the Persian Safavids, who used a mix of anti-Arab and pro-Shia ideology as a platform for the state and rebellion.

Then there is the schizmatics. Originally these were represented by the Khwarij, who rebelled against the Caliph Ali (radiAllahu anu). They were both vicious and anarchic, and would kill anyone whom they declared non-Muslim. Ironically, they treated the Ahlul'Qitab very well, so much so that Sunnis would wear crosses or Jewish skull caps to escape their persecution. This group is now represented by the Wahhabi sect, which I will describe in a moment.

In general the Islamic community is very non-sectarian. about 90 to 92% of Muslims are Sunni. Within this there are different legal and theocratic schools, however these can not be considered sects. The definition of a sect is generally that they pronounce others, not of them, as being out of the fold, or utterly wrong. This does not occur with the Sunni madhabs (schools of thought) towards each other.

I believe I should state my bias though, I am Sunni Traditionalist. I follow the Shafi'i Madhab and Ashari school of Aqidah. Though that will only mean something to a few people here.

Darackutny said:
Salafism is a school of thought that is also known as the Athari school. They hold to the ideology of the first three generations of Islam. Salafism, Ash'arism, and Maturidism all fall under Sunnism. The differences between each of these sects mainly revolve around their views regarding the attributes of Allah.

What people are more familiar with are the "four sects" of Sunnism, which differ when it comes to jurisprudence. So, it is possible to have a Salafi Hanafi, or an Ash'ari Hanbali, etc.


Wahabism is just a name given to Salafis by non-Salafis in order to give the impression that Salafism has only existed for two centuries. Mohammed bin Abdul Wahab, a Salafi reformer, started his "revolution" back then.

In general, I would disagree with some of what the brother says, all respect to him. In my understanding, the term Wahhabi is a somewhat pejorative term used to describe Sunni reformist literalists, both in matters of aqidah (belief) and fiqh (legal jurisprudence). The main issue with them in the mainstream is that their literalism often leads them to make statements that seem to be anthropomorphic, though this differs from scholar to scholar.

The term originally referred to an insurrectionist movement that started in the Nejd (Eastern Arabia) which gained its inspiration from the ideas of the aforementioned bin Abdul Wahab. This insurrection involved the massacre of anyone who did not endorse the particular brand of literalism that the group ascribed to, the most shocking being the massacre of 4000 Yemeni pilgrims and the taking of their wives and children as slaves and concubines.

The movement was eventually crushed by the Uthmani Khilafa, but gained popularity again with the political eminence of the House of Saud, which had a long standing affiliation with that school of thought.

In general not all those whom your average Sunni would call 'Wahhabis' are the same. Some follow the traditional Madhabs, some are literalist in their fiqh but not so much their aqidah. In general they are considered to be closest to the Hanbali school of legal thought, another term for them being 'neo-Hanbalis'. They are popularly known for the viciousness they direct towards Hanafi fiqh and the practice of Tasawuf. It is hard to describe them as a single monolithic movement as they are not so, however in the popular mind of most Sunnis they are considered to be a mass of angry young men, with big beards, short sleeved thaubs (robes) and shaved heads. While their scholars may not be free with it, the less educated of their movement are often very free with their takfir (the declaring of individuals as out of the fold of Islam).

An example of them is that recently a group of 'Salafis' passed out leaflets outside Friday prayers at many major Sydney mosques that essentially declared Habib Umar (a prominent Sunni scholar from the Hadramat valley in Yemen, also a member of the Prophet's, sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam, family) a non-Muslim.

They are generally affiliated with political Islamist groups, though not all of the members of such groups are Wahhabi, and not all Wahhabis are members.

If it seems like I am struggling to define them, it is because they are not a monolith, however people generally understand what one means when one uses the word. In general it refers to a Sunni who rejects the mainstream Sunni schools of thought and wishes to 'draw water from the well by cutting the rope'. A more extensive article (some would say polemic) about them in English is here:

Who or What is a Salafi?

Since becoming a Muslim, I have had many experiences with such people, none of them good. So again, take into account that this is my personal understanding, others here may have different ones. I am biased in that I have have had a few such individuals personally pronounce takfir on me. One of them went so far as to assault one of my friends within a Masjid, his only crime being 'being a moderate'.
 
kottila, heheh. thanks.

shinobi602, you've been missed. Glad to see you're back. If only Almokla would post in this thread to let us know if he's alright.
 
MrHicks said:
its kinda interesting how few branches islam has
sunni/shia/suffi?

that about it?

christianity has a billion lol

Well there are branches within Sunni and Shia. Suffi is not a sect. You have Suffi Shias and Sunnis. Suffi is more of an spiritual approach to whatever sect you already follow.

Majority of the differences within the Sunni sect comes from difference in fiqh, or law, and how its derived and which scholars you follow. Wahabbis are so extreme they barely consider Sunnis Muslim and Salafis are Sunni but more on the extreme side.

I know Shias have their own differences between their own groups but don't know much about the differences.
 
Rad Agast said:
kottila, heheh. thanks.

shinobi602, you've been missed. Glad to see you're back. If only Almokla would post in this thread to let us know if he's alright.

I work graveyard shift, sorry for being out so long. Been trying to find more information, but unfortunately the crackdown is so overwhelming there it's difficult to get new news.
 
Also, Ottoman Scribe and others, I know you guys have good intentions, but we're trying to keep our focus on what the main point of this thread is. Let's not deviate from that and start talking about caliphates and history there.

Let's keep it about the atrocities going on only please...
 
shinobi602 said:
Also, Ottoman Scribe and others, I know you guys have good intentions, but we're trying to keep our focus on what the main point of this thread is. Let's not deviate from that and start talking about caliphates and history there.

Let's keep it about the atrocities going on only please...

Oh def. Someone asked so he answered. I am angry about the killing of civilians as well but it really hurts to see sectarian violence. Or the use of sectarian differences to kill. Or the same people who might support rebellion and protests in their own countries, spout anti-Shia rhetoric when it comes to Bahrain.
 
Also, Ottoman Scribe and others, I know you guys have good intentions, but we're trying to keep our focus on what the main point of this thread is. Let's not deviate from that and start talking about caliphates and history there.

I think such discussions are relevant to the topic, unless we take it to be really really specific. I am sure we are all capable of keeping the topic in mind, and there it is not impossible to have several threads of conversation running simultaneously.

Considering the way that sectarianism is used as an excuse, some understanding of the sects for those who don't know is a positive thing.
 
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