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[Spehornoob]

Required grind just for the sake of padding out game time is a pain, but I don't think the concept of grind is inherently bad, if it's used in the right way.

For example, in Final Fantasy V, I love grinding out jobs, especially at the end game. You can try and experiment with and learn to play your job as you work towards mastering it, and it's not so slow that it ever becomes boring. More importantly, you're not really grinding just to increase an arbitrary power level, but you're grinding to be given more options for your characters. It's optional. You can beat FFV with pretty much any team, no grinding required, so adding in that optional grind so you have more options at your disposal isn't a bad thing.

 

[ZedLeppelin006]

JRPG grinding that is mindless for when I just want to destress or unwind.

Perfect example for me was last night when I was leveling up forms in Kingdom Hearts 2.5 with the volume muted with Pink Floyd in the background and my wife beside me playing Stardew on the Switch.

It was wonderful.

 

[Josephl64]

I absolutely love grinding in JRPGs, just make sure that each level-up is noticeable or else I'll feel like I had wasted my time.

 

[Sylas]

Required grind just for the sake of padding out game time is a pain, but I don't think the concept of grind is inherently bad, if it's used in the right way.

For example, in Final Fantasy V, I love grinding out jobs, especially at the end game. You can try and experiment with and learn to play your job as you work towards mastering it, and it's not so slow that it ever becomes boring. More importantly, you're not really grinding just to increase an arbitrary power level, but you're grinding to be given more options for your characters. It's optional. You can beat FFV with pretty much any team, no grinding required, so adding in that optional grind so you have more options at your disposal isn't a bad thing.

This. I really enjoy the (optional) progression I can take on to get more options. I sat down and grinded in Bravely Default to level up my jobs so I could tinker with more options. Which seems to be the trend, really. Grind for options, not power.

I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking for an investment of time to fight optional superbosses.

 

[Kiddy Dong]

I can see why people like grinding for its relaxing aspects, but in my eyes it just feels hollow and unsatisfying. I prefer mechanics where the player improves at the game, not the player's avatar.

 

[davepoobond]

Roguelikes are basically just grinds aren't they? Forsaking entire genres seems pretty myopic

 

[saturnine]

I'm of two minds on the issue. On one hand, stat and level-based progression is a theoretically perfectly fine way to balance a game and, like said earlier in the thread, provide an elegant way for players to modulate the difficulty according to their needs.

On the other hand, I see far too many games where maxing out your character growth is impossible to do organically. You should always be at max level when reaching the hardest point of a game. That doesn't necessarily mean that you should have max points in every stat though, simply that the level cap ensure that the player has to make a choice in their character build. It goes without saying that respec should always be an option, even if unavailable at times, both because it keeps players from being stuck with a shitty build, and because it encourages experimentation.

 

[CountAntonius]

Grinding is the ultimate therapeutic form of escapism.

 

[Steel]

I'm of two minds on the issue. On one hand, stat and level-based progression is a theoretically perfectly fine way to balance a game and, like said earlier in the thread, provide an elegant way for players to modulate the difficulty according to their needs.

On the other hand, I see far too many games where maxing out your character growth is impossible to do organically. You should always be at max level when reaching the hardest point of a game. That doesn't necessarily mean that you should have max points in every stat though, simply that the level cap ensure that the player has to make a choice in their character build. It goes without saying that respec should always be an option, even if unavailable at times, both because it keeps players from being stuck with a shitty build, and because it encourages experimentation.

Leveling can't be a way for a player to modulate difficulty if the player is guaranteed to be max level at the end of the game.

 

[saturnine]

Leveling can't be a way for a player to modulate difficulty if the player is guaranteed to be max level at the end of the game.

The end is not necessarily the hardest point. I'm thinking more about post-game dungeons and super-bosses, stuff like that. Additionally, levels are not the only way to modulate difficulty : health items, weapons and equipments can do the job, too.

 

[Syril]

Roguelikes are basically just grinds aren't they? Forsaking entire genres seems pretty myopic

It depends on the rougelike really. The original roguelikes specifically prevented grinding through through things like hunger mechanics or just the threat of instant death of you spent too long on one floor.

 

[Bigboss242]

Monster hunter is comming out earky next year the grind is real.

 

[benzopil]

Destiny 2 is already dead for a lot of people because there's nothing to grind

 

[The Wart]

Roguelikes are basically just grinds aren't they? Forsaking entire genres seems pretty myopic

Juh? The distinguishing feature of roguelike design is that it makes grinding impossible. The only thing you retain from play to play is your understanding and mastery of the system. "Roguelites" that place unlocks behind grindy requirements do muddy the water a bit, but a good roguelite will still place an emphasis on skill, system mastery, and improvisation over rote repetition. Binding of Isaac, for instance, is extremely grindy if you want to unlock everything, but the actual gameplay is all about learning about and adapting to whatever bizarre combination of items the game throws your way.

 

[spacemonkeynation]

For me it comes down to my enjoyment of the moment to moment gameplay. This is one thing Destiny gets right.

 

[shimon]

Heh....uh...me too.

I'm sure many do. Especially if you can do something else while doing the grind like watch a movie,YT video,Twitch stream,listen to music/podcast.

 

[zashga]

Players who enjoy grinding will be well served by the loot box craze and game design that incentivizes those additional purchases. Personally, I'm very suspicious of grinding in modern games for that very reason.

Grinding in a lot of older RPGs was optional, especially from the 16-bit days onward. The grindiest games I ever played were actually from the early era of MMORPGs: EverQuest, Final Fantasy XI, etc. In those games, the grind was very much to drag out the game and keep you subscribed to the drip feed of content patches and expansions. That wasn't a lot of fun for me, which is why I don't view most of those games particularly fondly.

 

[Katbot]

Game development costs are astronomical compared to the 1980s. There are more games releasing now than ever before. 60$ games are competing against free-to-play games whether gamers,publishers like it or not. Games are released on more platforms than ever before. These are the main reasons why grinding, loot boxes exist. They are coping mechanisms for makers and publishers.

Not a single word about any of this in the article. This is why most game journalism is delusional. Irrelevant.

So what? Does that make it good practice? No.

 

[schwabdizzle]

I feel smart developers can just "mask" the grind if they wanted to.

 

[Metalgus]

I like a bit of grinding, but when it’s an option, not a necessity. This way I can stop whenever I want and I won’t feel deprived.

 

[Paragon]

I feel like it depends what the "grind" is in the game and how it's structured.
What would a turn-based RPG be like if you could avoid all the battles except for bosses and still make meaningful progression?
At the same time, if you're having to grind for hours just to progress, or farm items, that's a chore.
It seems like a fine balance that needs to be struck rather than something which is inherently bad.

Farming for items, grinding out battles to get a rare item drop, waiting for timers to expire to progress or unlock items is all terrible game design - especially if it is done intentionally to push you towards microtransactions.
If a game does that sort of thing I'm either done with it, or I'll cheat to bypass it.
In Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain I used Cheat Engine to have infinite resources and eliminate the timers because that's not an important part of the core gameplay for me and was just a chore.
I have little tolerance for games where I have to grind to get rare item drops, so I avoid MMOs or games like Destiny.
I prefer structured quests which give you a reward at the end, not quests in which certain enemies will appear and may drop a rare item.

But I've also been playing through Etrian Odyssey this year and been having a great time with it. It feels like that game is masterfully crafted where nothing I've done so far has felt like a grind.
They have the right balance of challenging fights, random encounters, and quests, so that it always feels like I can be working towards a goal instead of simply grinding to level up and beat a boss.
The game teaches you early on that this is not an RPG where you should fight every enemy that you encounter - escaping is an important strategy - which helps avoid getting stuck grinding. If an enemy is too tough and I've mapped out the floor, I'll go and do a sidequest or two rather than running around the same area grinding out levels in random battles.
It's a very long game, but I've just been chipping away at it and never felt like any of my time has been wasted by grinding.

I'm also ten years late in playing it, and not in any rush to get through twenty other RPGs this year like a reviewer might, so perhaps I have a different perspective on what constitutes 'grinding'.
I think for me, it's if I am having to specifically go out of my way to run around an area and repeat the same fights over and over again for a reward - whether that's XP, gold, or a rare item drop.
If I'm working towards a goal and fighting most of the random encounters that I run into, that usually doesn't feel like grinding to me. But I know people who think JRPGs are all grind due to random encounters 'interrupting' the rest of the gameplay.

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

I like to grind (real life and games). It just has to be a good game.

 

[Man God]

I love the grinding. In fact I find myself bored with frictionless experiences; games that autosave too much, let you refight everything immediately, no consequence for death, no sense of progression. It's a fine balance.

I much prefer when grinds exist but let you control it to a degree. Bravely Default for example. Want to level? Turn encounters up to max. Want to just get to the boss? Turn them off. Want to level even faster? Chain those encounters.